Leo Rautins thinks the college game has deteriorated. | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Leo Rautins thinks the college game has deteriorated.

Dave85 said:
I don't have a problem with players going from HS into the D-league. Personally, I would enjoy CBB more if I knew our players were going to be around for a minimum of 2 years. I just want to see CBB improve by having a little more consistency with who is on the roster.
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Agree with the last part. The best and worst thing about CBB is that you develop relationships with these players and then before you know it they're gone.
 
Jeremy L. said:
If YOU make the decision to go to college, the rule should be a minimum of two years before leaving early.
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What if a guy can't cut it academically in college after his freshman year, and the NBA really wants him at that point? What rationale is there for making them stay put other than valuing entertainment over a guys freedom?
 
Eric15 said:
What if a guy can't cut it academically in college after his freshman year, and the NBA really wants him at that point? What rationale is there for making them stay put other than valuing entertainment over a guys freedom?
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Then let him go overseas and play (which I'm pretty sure kids can do right out of high school now). I personally see no excuse to not be eligible. They have the resources to get by.
 
Jeremy L. said:
Then let him go overseas and play (which I'm pretty sure kids can do right out of high school now). I personally see no excuse to not be eligible. They have the resources to get by.
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At any point after high school (possibly even before they finish HS) they can play in a foreign league, subject to their rules about signing players from outside the league's country. Many folks speculate that if the NBA adopts the baseball rules into their collective bargaining agreement, more HS players will play overseas. I guess their line of thinking is to play overseas for a year and then come back to the US as a free agent pro, since it is "the amateur draft".
 
Dave85 said:
Does not having a college degree to fall back on in case the NBA career doesn't work out count as player safety?
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With the NFL the concern is about physical safety; the idea of not having an 18-year-old being smashed by a 28-year-old.
 
Eric15 said:
What if a guy can't cut it academically in college after his freshman year, and the NBA really wants him at that point? What rationale is there for making them stay put other than valuing entertainment over a guys freedom?
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You really have to try to fail if your a big time athlete, I think calling it guys freedom is a bit much, they have it pretty darn good.
 
Briancuse said:
You really have to try to fail if your a big time athlete, I think calling it guys freedom is a bit much, they have it pretty darn good.
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You keep harping on this.
College athletes are held to a MUCH higher standard than regular students.
They have to practice a ton, and also keep up with all their classes, along with playing the actual games, travel, etc.
Most regular students have no such time constraints.
(well, other than Xbox and partying)

How many normal students have regular drug testing? That'd be ZERO.

And not that they'd have much time to do so, but scholarship athletes can't have a part-time job either.
Nor can they use their skills/likenesses/etc for monetary gain while in college.

Yes - they do have a lot of academic support, but then again - many of them are borderline qualified to be in college in the first place, so they need to have that.

Did you risk a career-ending injury in college? Probably not.
They do, every day.
 
721Comstock said:
You keep harping on this.
College athletes are held to a MUCH higher standard than regular students.
They have to practice a ton, and also keep up with all their classes, along with playing the actual games, travel, etc.
Most regular students have no such time constraints.
(well, other than Xbox and partying)

How many normal students have regular drug testing? That'd be ZERO.

And not that they'd have much time to do so, but scholarship athletes can't have a part-time job either.
Nor can they use their skills/likenesses/etc for monetary gain while in college.

Yes - they do have a lot of academic support, but then again - many of them are borderline qualified to be in college in the first place, so they need to have that.

Did you risk a career-ending injury in college? Probably not.
They do, every day.
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And thousands and thousands of us would have happily traded places with them quicker than you can say Jack Robinson. :)

Just as an afterthought, don't most carry reduced loads (ie, 3 credits/semester)? Yes, I know some make it up during spring and summer to graduate on time.

Although it's just a technicality, athletes are held to a different standard (drug testing) than regular students, not a higher one. It would be a higher one if they all took the same test and the pass/fail for student athletes was more stringent.

I was not aware scholarship athletes can't have a part time job. Is that an NCAA dictate?
 
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721Comstock said:
You keep harping on this.
College athletes are held to a MUCH higher standard than regular students.
They have to practice a ton, and also keep up with all their classes, along with playing the actual games, travel, etc.
Most regular students have no such time constraints.
(well, other than Xbox and partying)

How many normal students have regular drug testing? That'd be ZERO.

And not that they'd have much time to do so, but scholarship athletes can't have a part-time job either.
Nor can they use their skills/likenesses/etc for monetary gain while in college.

Yes - they do have a lot of academic support, but then again - many of them are borderline qualified to be in college in the first place, so they need to have that.

Did you risk a career-ending injury in college? Probably not.
They do, every day.
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How are they held to a higher standard? Most of them take easier classes, and they have all of the help in the world available to them. Over the course of the season, the practices aren't as intense as you would think. So we are suppose to cry for them because they aren't getting paid for their likeness? What does their likeness even mean anyway, there are no more college video games. You have to keep in mind these kids are given all the free clothes and sneakers you can imagine, expensive stuff.

I am curious with today's advances in the medical field, what do you consider a "career" ending injury?
 
Briancuse said:
How are they held to a higher standard? Most of them take easier classes, and they have all of the help in the world available to them. Over the course of the season, the practices aren't as intense as you would think. So we are suppose to cry for them because they aren't getting paid for their likeness? What does their likeness even mean anyway, there are no more college video games. You have to keep in mind these kids are given all the free clothes and sneakers you can imagine, expensive stuff.

I am curious with today's advances in the medical field, what do you consider a "career" ending injury?
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Concussions.

IF Jonny Flynn came back, and blew out his hip in college, instead of as a Pro, does he ever make a dime playing hoops?

And who knows what else?
Ben Lewis hung them up, he probably woulda killed it in Dino's O.
 
Me and my tin foil hat think the NBA drafts college stars who they know aren't ready for the NBA on purpose. Of course, they are looking for their needle in a haystack star but they also want to keep the college game down.

It's the only sport where the interest gap between college and pro's is close. The NBA wants to make sure they are the top dog so they pay for it. Its like an investment or even a tax write off type thing. Sure, they waste millions doing it but at the same time they keep the gap there and keep them on top which in essence pays itself off.
 
DomeStranger said:
Me and my tin foil hat think the NBA drafts college stars who they know aren't ready for the NBA on purpose. Of course, they are looking for their needle in a haystack star but they also want to keep the college game down.

It's the only sport where the interest gap between college and pro's is close. The NBA wants to make sure they are the top dog so they pay for it. Its like an investment or even a tax write off type thing. Sure, they waste millions doing it but at the same time they keep the gap there and keep them on top which in essence pays itself off.
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You can rest assured the players association isn't in favor of doing things to ensure better skilled players come out of college every year :rolleyes:
 
721Comstock said:
Concussions.

IF Jonny Flynn came back, and blew out his hip in college, instead of as a Pro, does he ever make a dime playing hoops?

And who knows what else?
Ben Lewis hung them up, he probably woulda killed it in Dino's O.
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Concussions don't usually happen in basketball, and they are not career threatening. There are very few career ending injuries these days.
 
DomeStranger said:
Me and my tin foil hat think the NBA drafts college stars who they know aren't ready for the NBA on purpose. Of course, they are looking for their needle in a haystack star but they also want to keep the college game down.

It's the only sport where the interest gap between college and pro's is close. The NBA wants to make sure they are the top dog so they pay for it. Its like an investment or even a tax write off type thing. Sure, they waste millions doing it but at the same time they keep the gap there and keep them on top which in essence pays itself off.
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I don't think the NBA will ever worry about making the interest gap bigger between them and the NCAA.

It seems to be a Syracuse thinking that the NBA stinks and nobody watches or cares about it. Spent a ton of time in Florida and now Nevada and you don't hear a peep about college basketball, everything is about the NBA. (Outside of the tournament). Syracuse it's literally (SU this SU that, JB, Gmac, 6 ot's, 2003) and that's it.
 
Eric15 said:
What if a guy can't cut it academically in college after his freshman year, and the NBA really wants him at that point? What rationale is there for making them stay put other than valuing entertainment over a guys freedom?
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No one can stop the NBA from hiring anyone. If they honor the agreement, and "the NBA really wants him", then the NBA only has to wait a year before he can become an employee. No problem.
 
two3zone said:
I don't think the NBA will ever worry about making the interest gap bigger between them and the NCAA.

It seems to be a Syracuse thinking that the NBA stinks and nobody watches or cares about it. Spent a ton of time in Florida and now Nevada and you don't hear a peep about college basketball, everything is about the NBA. (Outside of the tournament). Syracuse it's literally (SU this SU that, JB, Gmac, 6 ot's, 2003) and that's it.
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In my group of friends in central NJ, they watch all sports including college basketball during the regular season. I don't think they see the NBA has better than MLB, NFL, or CBB.
 
Hoo's That said:
With the NFL the concern is about physical safety; the idea of not having an 18-year-old being smashed by a 28-year-old.
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Mind, body, and spirit. It's all worth protecting.
 
Dave85 said:
If it's all about the NBA then why not just take the players out of HS. What argument can you make against it? At least with two years coaching will have meaning again at the college level.
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Very clear arguments can be made for why the NBA prefers one and done and two and done over HS. .

1) Takes some mystery out of the draft. There was some really bad draft day decisions made between 2000-2003 on High Schoolers. That extra year against more standard competition makes evaluation easier.
2) One year of free development. The NBA minor league is now only really good for players that were first rounders, and NBA teams have integrated programs for them involving staying with the team and playing some D league games. It is no good for an undrafted player.
3) Your top players are marketed before they enter the league.

Of course all those points also support a two and done rule, which the NBA would no doubt prefer. But
a) Players union needs to approve, and they want a major concession for that.
b) There is a significant legal risk. There have been some HS players, and now some first year players, that have been successful. Every year you push it out, the more merit a lawsuit against the league has.
 
jncuse said:
Very clear arguments can be made for why the NBA prefers one and done and two and done over HS. .

1) Takes some mystery out of the draft. There was some really bad draft day decisions made between 2000-2003 on High Schoolers. That extra year against more standard competition makes evaluation easier.
2) One year of free development. The NBA minor league is now only really good for players that were first rounders, and NBA teams have integrated programs for them involving staying with the team and playing some D league games. It is no good for an undrafted player.
3) Your top players are marketed before they enter the league.

Of course all those points also support a two and done rule, which the NBA would no doubt prefer. But
a) Players union needs to approve, and they want a major concession for that.
b) There is a significant legal risk. There have been some HS players, and now some first year players, that have been successful. Every year you push it out, the more merit a lawsuit against the league has.
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I'm glad CBB exists to serve the NBA.
 
Dave85 said:
I'm glad CBB exists to serve the NBA.
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What league that develops prospects in amy big 4 sport, does not serve the top professional league.

But let's go further.
1) The NCAA is a developmental league that refuses to pay its players.
2) The NCAA refuses to let players get drafted, receive bonuses, and come back to school. If the NCAA was more willing to allow players to get drafted but come back to school if they think its right for their development than perhaps it would be able to keep players. But it prefers to keep up the charade that is a pure academic endeavour so it does not need to compensate.
2) It is now largely a myth that mid to late (non lotto) first round player develop better in the NCAA playing about 1000-1200 minutes. The NBA first round pick
  • gets summer league time against better competition than the NCAA
  • preseason court time against better competition than the NCAA,
  • Some NBA minutes,
  • Extended practice time with assistant coaches who will put in plenty of time with you to work there way up
  • At times an integrated D-League schedule of about 10-20 games, whereby it still spends most of the time in the big team. When teams will not practice much for a while, they get sent to the D-League to get minutes.
  • better trainers, better facilities, better diets,
  • more time to work independently on your strength
  • more practice time to work independently on your Skills (Note - the last 3 points are heavily dependent on the commitment and the "relative" maturity of the player.
I'm not saying it is clearly better for all, and it depends on what a player's mentality on the floor is, but the automatic assumption that a player develops more playing 1000-1200 minutes of NCAA time is certainly a myth.

In essence the NCAA is getting prospects, but is refusing to be a development league for drafted players. So the NBA is using them, but the NCAA is screwing iteself.
 
jncuse said:
What league that develops prospects in amy big 4 sport, does not serve the top professional league.

But let's go further.
1) The NCAA is a developmental league that refuses to pay its players.
2) The NCAA refuses to let players get drafted, receive bonuses, and come back to school. If the NCAA was more willing to allow players to get drafted but come back to school if they think its right for their development than perhaps it would be able to keep players. But it prefers to keep up the charade that is a pure academic endeavour so it does not need to compensate.
2) It is now largely a myth that mid to late (non lotto) first round player develop better in the NCAA playing about 1000-1200 minutes. The NBA first round pick
  • gets summer league time against better competition than the NCAA
  • preseason court time against better competition than the NCAA,
  • Some NBA minutes,
  • Extended practice time with assistant coaches who will put in plenty of time with you to work there way up
  • At times an integrated D-League schedule of about 10-20 games, whereby it still spends most of the time in the big team. When teams will not practice much for a while, they get sent to the D-League to get minutes.
  • better trainers, better facilities, better diets,
  • more time to work independently on your strength
  • more practice time to work independently on your Skills (Note - the last 3 points are heavily dependent on the commitment and the "relative" maturity of the player.
I'm not saying it is clearly better for all, and it depends on what a player's mentality on the floor is, but the automatic assumption that a player develops more playing 1000-1200 minutes of NCAA time is certainly a myth.

In essence the NCAA is getting prospects, but is refusing to be a development league for drafted players. So the NBA is using them, but the NCAA is screwing iteself.
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All your bullet points are just opinions. In my opinion, the current 1-and-done way of things has really hurt CBB. It may be great for the NBA, but for CBB fans, again, in my opinion, it sucks. I preferred it better when players stuck around for 4 years was the norm. But whatever, it's just an opinion.
 
Dave85 said:
All your bullet points are just opinions. In my opinion, the current 1-and-done way of things has really hurt CBB. It may be great for the NBA, but for CBB fans, again, in my opinion, it sucks. I preferred it better when players stuck around for 4 years was the norm. But whatever, it's just an opinion.
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I never claimed that the NBA and the one and done rule was not crushing the NCAA. I absolutely agree with that perspective. It really is. A two and done would really help

I initially responded to this comment you made "If it's all about the NBA then why not just take the players out of HS. What argument can you make against it?"

I made several points as to why the NBA prefers the one and done rule over the HS rule. It is why they made the move in 2004 - the fact they made the change is pretty good proof they prefer it No?. And I am of the opinion if it was not for the Players Association and other legalities that they would be fine with the 2 and done as well by now.

You then took issue with the fact that the NBA uses the NCAA. I just pointed out that every pro league uses other leagues for development. I then posted why there are more downward issues between the NBA and the NCAA CB is getting hurt more (lack of compensation (fact). lack of NCAA refusing to let in drafted players play in the NCAA (fact), and an opinion that first round players and teams are learning that they can develop just as well in the NBA as the NCAA (opinion which I supported with facts)

Isn't that the way a message board is supposed to work. You state an opinion, and you make arguments or facts that support the opinion. It doesn't mean the opinion is correct, but your supporting points can still indeed be facts.

If you are going to claim that all my bullet points are opinions, please go ahead and show me which if the following is not a fact.

  • gets summer league time against better competition than the NCAA
  • preseason court time against better competition than the NCAA,
  • Some NBA minutes,
  • Extended practice time with assistant coaches who will put in plenty of time with you to work there way up
  • At times an integrated D-League schedule of about 10-20 games, whereby it still spends most of the time in the big team. When teams will not practice much for a while, they get sent to the D-League to get minutes.
  • better trainers, better facilities, better diets,
  • more time to work independently on your strength
  • more practice time to work independently on your Skills (Note - the last 3 points are heavily dependent on the commitment and the "relative" maturity of the player.
Onc can still think the NCAA route is better for development as you can become more of the man against inferior players. But it does not mean any of the bullets above are not facts.
 
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jncuse said:
2) The NCAA refuses to let players get drafted, receive bonuses, and come back to school. If the NCAA was more willing to allow players to get drafted but come back to school if they think its right for their development than perhaps it would be able to keep players. But it prefers to keep up the charade that is a pure academic endeavour so it does not need to compensate.
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I don't give a rat's patootie about the NBA or any other professional league where ever it is in any way, shape or form. I am definitely a hater. To me NBA refs are a slight step above WWE "refs".

There are at least two problems in regard to your first point #2. Problem #1 is that the first sentence describes a professional basketball player. The NCAA refuses to allow any school to use professional basketball players. And I'm glad. The minor league baseball players who played football, like Chris Weinke at F$U, were able to do it because they did not hire an agent and they were still amateurs for football because they were not paid to play football. They were not allowed to play baseball for their schools because they were professional baseball players. The second problem is probably insurmountable because the NBA will NEVER allow this to happen regardless of how the NCAA feels about it. They will not allow a drafted player to go back to college and thereby "waste" the draft pick and the bonus money. They wanted that guy, not someone else that may or may not be as good in a future draft because "they get the pick back".

If you want D-1 schools to sponsor teams of players who wear their colors but don't have to go to class and serve as the minor leagues for the NBA, et al., then say so. The Mexican universities in Mexico City and Nuevo Leon sponsor soccer teams that way in the Mexican soccer league and I seriously doubt many of their players have seen the inside of a classroom at the schools. Many schools that you may think would agree to that idea won't do it. ND won't do it because they will require anyone in an ND jersey to go to class. I'd like to think that UVa won't do it for the same reason. I think SU and many private schools might be joining them because of the costs.

The NBA owners are not poor people. Let them open THEIR wallets to pay for a minor league. This is pretty easy for me to say because UVa is not going to get many, if not any, one-and-dones, because they, stereotypically, don't want to play anything beyond matador defense. And "that dog won't hunt."
 
Hoo's That said:
I don't give a rat's patootie about the NBA or any other professional league where ever it is in any way, shape or form. I am definitely a hater. To me NBA refs are a slight step above WWE "refs".

There are at least two problems in regard to your first point #2. Problem #1 is that the first sentence describes a professional basketball player. The NCAA refuses to allow any school to use professional basketball players. And I'm glad. The minor league baseball players who played football, like Chris Weinke at F$U, were able to do it because they did not hire an agent and they were still amateurs for football because they were not paid to play football. They were not allowed to play baseball for their schools because they were professional baseball players. The second problem is probably insurmountable because the NBA will NEVER allow this to happen regardless of how the NCAA feels about it. They will not allow a drafted player to go back to college and thereby "waste" the draft pick and the bonus money. They wanted that guy, not someone else that may or may not be as good in a future draft because "they get the pick back".

If you want D-1 schools to sponsor teams of players who wear their colors but don't have to go to class and serve as the minor leagues for the NBA, et al., then say so. The Mexican universities in Mexico City and Nuevo Leon sponsor soccer teams that way in the Mexican soccer league and I seriously doubt many of their players have seen the inside of a classroom at the schools. Many schools that you may think would agree to that idea won't do it. ND won't do it because they will require anyone in an ND jersey to go to class. I'd like to think that UVa won't do it for the same reason. I think SU and many private schools might be joining them because of the costs.

The NBA owners are not poor people. Let them open THEIR wallets to pay for a minor league. This is pretty easy for me to say because UVa is not going to get many, if not any, one-and-dones, because they, stereotypically, don't want to play anything beyond matador defense. And "that dog won't hunt."
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The NBA would be open to guys coming back to school I think. It would just be the domestic version of the international player draft and stash strategy.

Besides, the ball's in the NCAA's court on that one. The NBA couldn't really say anything if the NCAA says that a player retains their collegiate eligibility even after being drafted. The NBA team would simply retain the player's rights.
 
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