A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Making the I81 Decision...

[KellySyracuse]

Aren't they saying they want a tunnel?

I did not think so but I'm thinking of the group that owns the businesses on N. Salina and the Franklin Square people as a new butternut st. bridge goes right through their neighborhood. Maybe they're not named the north side coalition

 

[FrancoPizza]

and there it is, thanks for not disappointing me. Yes, we should base a 100 year decision on your desire to drive a car. That makes sense

I don't like driving, but until monorails and hovercrafts are viable I'm sticking with my car.

 

[FrancoPizza]

If you're all for wasteful money being spent in CNY, I can think of hundreds of things more worthy of spending $3 billion on than an unnecessary highway that results in the further destruction of the city.

I think we can all agree a $3 billion renovation to the dome would look pretty nice. But it's not happening. This is the closest we will ever come to sniffing that kind of money.

 

[KellySyracuse]

I think we can all agree a $3 billion renovation to the dome would look pretty nice. But it's not happening. This is the closest we will ever come to sniffing that kind of money.

and what a waste it would be to use it for a tunnel. I'd rather see that money spent on new water main infrastructure and fiber optic broadband along with light rail to the dome from the suburbs. Why in the world would be want to change the entire landscape of the city for Destiny, Pilot and for convenience of driving a car?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Where to start?

It isn't close to the lake. The proposed tunnel would end at roughly the 600 block of Erie Blvd East. According to Google, that is over 2 miles from Onondaga Lake.

Your concerns about water runoff would be relevant if we were talking about an elevated highway or a boulevard but we are talking about a tunnel. There is no runoff in a tunnel by definition.

I don't know how deep the water table is where the tunnel is proposed but from what I have read, when the DEC evaluated this option, they looked at a tunnel that is considerably deeper than the one currently proposed (as well as a couple of other elaborate and enormously expensive options).

I don't have any problem with calling on the DEC to do their job and give each option a fair and impartial evaluation.

People trying to compare the water situation for the Big Dig tunnels to the proposed tunnel in Syracuse are off base. This is a much different situation. This tunnel would not be well below sea level, next to or even under the ocean.

Any engineers with real knowledge willing to weigh in with their opinions?

There have been public forums on this. I guess you know much more than the engineers who have studied this. I also don't know why you feel the need to mischaracterize what I've said in 2 posts now. I didn't say the roadway runs either next to the Inner Harbor or next to the lake. I said among the other problems with the tunnel concept is that the water table is too shallow there as it runs from downtown parallel to North Salina Street, and will require significant infrastructure for pumping out water alongside the tunnel.

The water run-off problem is not from the tunnel, per se, but from the water pumped out of the tunnel that seeps in there from the water table. Where does that go? Into the lake, probably via the Inner Harbor, a short distance from the waste treatment plant. Have you noticed that after a big storm, the sewers overflow and unfiltered waste goes into the lake? That's what I'm talking about.

 

[FrancoPizza]

and what a waste it would be to use it for a tunnel. I'd rather see that money spent on new water main infrastructure and fiber optic broadband along with light rail to the dome from the suburbs. Why in the world would be want to change the entire landscape of the city for Destiny, Pilot and for convenience of driving a car?

But that's the point. We're not getting any of those shiny new toys. We don't get a vote on how to spend that money. If it's a $3B pee trough I'll take it.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I agree, that's why I don't understand the whole idea of the tunnel

There are only 2 arguments for the tunnel - to keep customers coming to Destiny from south of the City with minimal delay, and because it will be a massive boondoggle that will benefit a handful of construction companies who will massively overcharge to do the project.

 

[Fly Rodder]

and there it is, thanks for not disappointing me. Yes, we should base a 100 year decision on your desire to drive a car at a high rate of speed through the middle of a city. That makes sense

Added some flavor.

 

[KellySyracuse]

There are only 2 arguments for the tunnel - to keep customers coming to Destiny from south of the City with minimal delay, and because it will be a massive boondoggle that will benefit a handful of construction companies who will massively overcharge to do the project.

and likely with a toll to get through it to pay for the maintenance expense. If there is a toll I wonder how many of the suburban folk and truckers will bypass so they don't have to pay

 

[Fly Rodder]

But that's the point. We're not getting any of those shiny new toys. We don't get a vote on how to spend that money. If it's a $3B pee trough I'll take it.

I'll tell you what. If you want me to spend money on your house, I will. You don't get any say in how I spend it, but I'm spending it on your house because otherwise, I'll spend it elsewhere. Deal?

 

[shandeezy7]

and likely with a toll to get through it to pay for the maintenance expense. If there is a toll I wonder how many of the suburban folk and truckers will bypass so they don't have to pay

Not to mention that a toll would clearly have an impact on commute times for many.

 

[xc84]

But that's the point. We're not getting any of those shiny new toys. We don't get a vote on how to spend that money. If it's a $3B pee trough I'll take it.

Great attitude. Let's spend $3B for the sake of spending.

 

[General20]

That's what some legislators think, but this wouldn't be a cut-and-cover tunnel because of the water table. So there wouldn't be comprehensive replacement of utilities in the corridor.

A tunnel is useless to virtually every constituency but one: the owner of the mall on the lake, who wants cars from Pennsylvania to have unsignalized access to his front door. Putting aside the fact that Syracuse is a small city with no need for capacity improvements and no reasonable means of paying the enormous long-term maintenance costs of operating a tunnel, every tunnel plan ignores the local commuting needs: there's no realistic provision for a) an I-81/I-690 interchange or b) University Hill and downtown on- and off-ramps for I-81, because the expressway will necessarily be 200 feet below ground in that area. It's being proposed as, essentially, a driveway to the mall, public be damned.

I agree with you about the tunnel, but its not just Destiny who wants to keep 81 where it is. You'd be amazed how many people fight this obvious improvement for no good reason other than the fact that they are scared of change.

I wish every discussion about 81 was as intelligent and informed as the one on this board, but its not, not even close. Proving, of course, that SU fans are the best at everything.

 

[OttoMets]

I agree with you about the tunnel, but its not just Destiny who wants to keep 81 where it is. You'd be amazed how many people fight this obvious improvement for no good reason other than the fact that they are scared of change.

I wish every discussion about 81 was as intelligent and informed as the one on this board, but its not, not even close. Proving, of course, that SU fans are the best at everything.

Oh, I know. But it's not the anti-change crowd that sent DeFrancisco to the dark side and got Magnarelli to tune out what he knows is in his constituency's best interest. It's just Pyramid money funneled through the unsophisticated Seventh North Street business owners. The legislative delegation is trying to legitimize their change in heart by citing a popular uprising, but it's just about the money.

 

[Orijinal]

So all of you are saying that Syracuse should just raze the 81 viaduct and put in a community grid, and let that be that. Correct?

That's fine with me. Any idea that keeps the viaduct just flies in the face of what has galvanized the discussion of a new 81: that the viaduct has only served to divide the city; that it was mistake that needs to be corrected.

But I still hate the idea of extending commute times by diverting 81 around the city (even if we are talking only 5-10 minutes) or hitting stop and go traffic on a boulevard. That's why I'm all about the tunnel option in addition to the boulevard--to keep through traffic going through, not around.

Oh, and cars will be here in 30 years. We just won't be driving them.

 

[KellySyracuse]

So all of you are saying that Syracuse should just raze the 81 viaduct and put in a community grid, and let that be that. Correct?

That's fine with me. Any idea that keeps the viaduct just flies in the face of what has galvanized the discussion of a new 81: that the viaduct has only served to divide the city; that it was mistake that needs to be corrected.

But I still hate the idea of extending commute times by diverting 81 around the city (even if we are talking only 5-10 minutes) or hitting stop and go traffic on a boulevard. That's why I'm all about the tunnel option in addition to the boulevard--to keep through traffic going through, not around.

Oh, and cars will be here in 30 years. We just won't be driving them.

most of the commute times would be the same for either a new viaduct or community grid according to the multiple traffic studies that have been done.

I think NYS should make the thruway free between the 481 and bville ramps, that would help with diverting traffic around the city.

 

[xc84]

So all of you are saying that Syracuse should just raze the 81 viaduct and put in a community grid, and let that be that. Correct?

Interchanges to 481 will be revised. 481 will be improved to handle additional traffic and renamed to 81. The "grid" will be created to enhance intra-downtown traffic. There will be "81 spur" highways from 481 interchanges to the 1.4 mile downtown at-grade streets. I actually think it will be easier to get to downtown from 81 than currently given the way the current ramps are designed and the problems they create. I agree, some commutes will be lengthened by a few minutes. For thru-traffic, it is an extra 3.3 miles so about 3 minutes (481 v. current 81). If you instead go through downtown , it will add a few minutes extra on the 1.4 mile at-grade street.

 

[Orijinal]

Interchanges to 481 will be revised. 481 will be improved to handle additional traffic and renamed to 81. The "grid" will be created to enhance intra-downtown traffic. There will be "81 spur" highways from 481 interchanges to the 1.4 mile downtown at-grade streets. I actually think it will be easier to get to downtown from 81 than currently given the way the current ramps are designed and the problems they create. I agree, some commutes will be lengthened by a few minutes. For thru-traffic, it is an extra 3.3 miles so about 3 minutes (481 v. current 81). If you instead go through downtown , it will add a few minutes extra on the 1.4 mile at-grade street.

Not sure I know how to visualize this. I'm assuming these "spur highways" are just a fancy way of saying there will be further connections made between 481 (the new 81) and the grid. Interesting.

 

[xc84]

Not sure I know how to visualize this. I'm assuming these "spur highways" are just a fancy way of saying there will be further connections made between 481 (the new 81) and the grid. Interesting.

Picture the current 81 (from the north and south 481 interchanges) ending and letting out at downtown. My point in calling them out is that only 1.4 miles of the current highway path will no longer be a highway.

 

[OttoMets]

Not sure I know how to visualize this. I'm assuming these "spur highways" are just a fancy way of saying there will be further connections made between 481 (the new 81) and the grid. Interesting.

What's currently I-81 will, between the current 481 interchange at Rock Cut and East Castle Street and again between I-690 and the northern 481 interchange, look and function more or less exactly like 81 does now. The southern spur will be designated something like New York State Route 381 and might have a 40-mph speed limit as it approaches downtown; the northern spur will be called Interstate 281 or something like that, but both will be high-speed limited access freeways taking people right into downtown.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Millhouse]

why should everyone in NY pay 3 billion for a tiny fraction of the state population to shave a couple minutes off their commute?

you could save money and split a billion dollars to pay off everyone who wants a goofy tunnel

 

[oldpinepoint]

I would rather see the Feds give the City a billion to fix its crumbling infrastructure

 

[sutomcat]

More on tunnels in Syracuse. There were some built back in the day for railroads.

Historians uncover old railroad tunnel under Syracuse's Fayette Street

CNYrailroadnut

 

[Cusefan0307]

why should everyone in NY pay 3 billion for a tiny fraction of the state population to shave a couple minutes off their commute?

you could save money and split a billion dollars to pay off everyone who wants a goofy tunnel

80 percent of it comes from the Feds.

*yes i know it's still tax dollars.

 

[OttoMets]

More on tunnels in Syracuse. There were some built back in the day for railroads.

Historians uncover old railroad tunnel under Syracuse's Fayette Street

CNYrailroadnut

Hey, I know that second rail tunnel: