And then there were two, the Cavs and Warriors

[skurey]

Tom Haberstroh ‏@tomhaberstroh
In the Finals, LeBron James has 44 assists and 15 turnovers. All other Cavs have 37 assists and 42 turnovers.

Tom Haberstroh ‏@tomhaberstroh
LeBron O 50% eFG. RT @SethPartnow: "Non-LeBron" shots at just under 31% eFG for Finals. They have literally nowhere else to go for offense.

But hey they play slightly better defense!

 

[Knicks411]

The 15 turnovers in 5 games might be the most amazing stat.

 

[longislandcuse]

Not to minimalize Lebron's efforts because its happening in the Finals, but Westbrook did this same thing for about 3 weeks. Great players put up great numbers when they have the ball in their hands 95% of the time. You have to own the skillset that allows you to score and assist while not being a turnover machine but for the guys that do, they can put up those numbers.

 

[skurey]

That Westbrook run was awesome. Almost made the playoffs in the West by himself.

 

[Orangezoo]

Alright well continue making yourself look foolish.

Well that sure proves the point you can't even support...

 

[skurey]

I've posted stats in this thread that have shown how poorly the rest of the Cavs have performed. You've called me names and nothing else really.

 

[Knicks411]

Not to minimalize Lebron's efforts because its happening in the Finals, but Westbrook did this same thing for about 3 weeks. Great players put up great numbers when they have the ball in their hands 95% of the time. You have to own the skillset that allows you to score and assist while not being a turnover machine but for the guys that do, they can put up those numbers.

He did, but A) the turnovers were insane, B) he wasn't doing it against the Warriors every night, and C) he wasn't playing quite as many minutes.

Not to diminish it, because it was crazy, but not quite at this level.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I've posted stats in this thread that have shown how poorly the rest of the Cavs have performed. You've called me names and nothing else really.

Listen, you can argue Cleveland would of been in this series with Kyrie and Love, but the transitive property doesn't exactly work in sports. Lebron would of had the ball less and who knows how Golden State would of played.

You can actually argue Kyrie getting hurt caught Golden State off guard and lead Cleveland to slowing down the game. Who knows if Golden State plays better from the start if Cleveland is at full strength and tries to run with the Warriors.

Also I don't want to hear the BS about some of these other guys on the team being garbage. Lebron is the person who wanted Miller, James Jones, and Shawn Marion on the roster. Plus he also knew Love and Kyrie have each spent a good portion of their young careers being hurt. I don't blame Lebron for losing this series with his play, but he basically hand picked 5 or 6 of the guys he is playing with.

 

[MikeSU02]

He did, but A) the turnovers were insane, B) he wasn't doing it against the Warriors every night, and C) he wasn't playing quite as many minutes.

Not to diminish it, because it was crazy, but not quite at this level.

What LeBron is doing has never been done.

GS is a historically great team. Whatever you think of Bron's supporting cast, him averaging what he's averaging is something that won't be replicated unless he does it, himself.

People should just enjoy what he's doing. Because MJ didn't do it. Magic didn't do it. Bird didn't do it. No one has done this.

 

[MikeSU02]

Listen, you can argue Cleveland would of been in this series with Kyrie and Love, but the transitive property doesn't exactly work in sports. Lebron would of had the ball less and who knows how Golden State would of played.

You can actually argue Kyrie getting hurt caught Golden State off guard and lead Cleveland to slowing down the game. Who knows if Golden State plays better from the start if Cleveland is at full strength and tries to run with the Warriors.

Also I don't want to hear the BS about some of these other guys on the team being garbage. Lebron is the person who wanted Miller, James Jones, and Shawn Marion on the roster. Plus he also knew Love and Kyrie have each spent a good portion of their young careers being hurt. I don't blame Lebron for losing this series with his play, but he basically hand picked 5 or 6 of the guys he is playing with.

I agree with you about your points here, but be careful not to conflate the fact that LeBron the GM does anything to diminish what LeBron the player does. I know you aren't doing this, but him being a bad GM doesn't mean what he's doing isn't amazing.

Bron hand picked his guys, banked on two superstars that have been consistently hurt and basically runs his own offense. I don't disagree with any of it. So he has to lie in the bed he made.

 

[Orangezoo]

I've posted stats in this thread that have shown how poorly the rest of the Cavs have performed. You've called me names and nothing else really.

The stats you have posted are meaningless. This is about talent not performance unless you are looking to move the goalposts here. Lebron hasn't gotten the same level of support this series he got the rest of the playoffs and regular season. Part of that is missing key players and losing some of the chemistry. But if your logic he is playing with scrubs then before the finals it was Kyrie/Lebron and a bunch of scrubs making it to the finals.

JR averaged 18 pts vs the hawks 12 for the bulls ( hes at 10 this series)
Shumpert averaged 13 vs the hawks and 10 vs the bulls ( hes at 7 this series)
mozgov averaged 10/7 vs the hawks and 7/6 vs the bulls ( hes at 13/7 this series)
Delly has averaged less in the finals (8/2) than he did in the first 3 series ( 9/3) plus slowed Curry for 3 games straight.
tristan thompson has been averaging a double double throughout the playoffs including 13 boards a game in the finals

Yet somehow those supporting members who did more before the finals or at least maintained it have nothing to do with cleveland getting to the finals. They are D league scrubs ( your words not mine).

The reality is that Kyrie's presence is greatly missed on offense. On defense the CAVS have been arguably better than anyone all season has vs the Warriors despite being a d-league squad.

The transitive property is a good example by 0307 and it is a good point. With that said this group of scrubs have been pivotal to the CAVS success. Lebron is playing one of the best individual series I have ever seen yet they ran into a buzzsaw of a team in Golden State who has adapted to the physical play and is now just out maneuvering the CAVs along with Curry stepping up the last two games like an MVP does.

The CAVS talent and quality didn't evaporate just the performance of those supporting pieces. That is not a team of scrubs that is the fact they are playing a higher quality opponent and that those players are not stepping up like they did in previous series. So again the foolish one here is you making erroneous dleague claims.

Go Troll somewhere else.

 

[Melancer46]

Well, I don't really want Monroe.

I think the Knicks need to play Melo at the 4, but Melo at the 4 and Monroe at the 5 seems like a disaster defensively. Robin Lopez might be able to provide a lot of what Tyson gave them in 2013, and try to put shooting around that + Melo. Though if they take Mudiay I don't know how that works. But I think the 2013 team is the template for what you put around Melo.

I agree that Melo and Monroe don't work as a 4/5 tandem besides being a small-ball lineup. If Monroe is the lock to NY as some have indicated, I think something like:

SF: Melo
PF: Porzingis
C: Monroe

might be ideal (or they could potentially make a move for a PF like a Taj Gibson or something).

Ideally, I would think the Knicks want to have the versatility to play Melo at the 3 and the 4 depending on match-ups. Banging at the 4 consistently could wear him down, but they need to be able to go small with him from time to time.

 

[skurey]

I agree that LeBron's buddies are terrible. He did the same thing in Miami. In his minor defense these guys were supposed to be like the 10th+ man on the roster.

So we both agree missing Kyrie is huge. Now these scrubs have to shoulder more of an offensive load and they aren't capable of it, because they are scrubs. You and I are basically agreeing but you don't want to admit it because of personal grudges.

 

[skurey]

How many wins do you think a Delly, Shump, JR, TT, replacement level NBA player lineup gets in the East?

 

[Cusefan0307]

I agree that LeBron's buddies are terrible. He did the same thing in Miami. In his minor defense these guys were supposed to be like the 10th+ man on the roster.

So we both agree missing Kyrie is huge. Now these scrubs have to shoulder more of an offensive load and they aren't capable of it, because they are scrubs. You and I are basically agreeing but you don't want to admit it because of personal grudges.

Why did Golden State beat Cleveland in game 1 with Kyrie playing basically the entire game?

 

[Orangezoo]

I agree that LeBron's buddies are terrible. He did the same thing in Miami. In his minor defense these guys were supposed to be like the 10th+ man on the roster.

So we both agree missing Kyrie is huge. Now these scrubs have to shoulder more of an offensive load and they aren't capable of it, because they are scrubs. You and I are basically agreeing but you don't want to admit it because of personal grudges.

Personal grudges? That is a new one. You claim a lot of things with nothing to back them up. Skurey says they are scrubs so they are scrubs. Such intellect! I don't know you nor do i allude to but you make no sense and have nothing to support your claims. A bad finals doesnt make lebrons teammates a bunch of scrubs. So no i dont agree with you nor do i have a grudge. You just have not made a single cogent point in this thread to support your theory. Its all a bunch of nothing..aka trolling.

 

[skurey]

I posted the stats that show how much they suck on offense and you're like nahhh doesn't fit my argument so it doesn't count.

 

[Orangezoo]

How many wins do you think a Delly, Shump, JR, TT, replacement level NBA player lineup gets in the East?

Who knows... but you have to take away every single team in the easts key players to have a realistic assessment which is pointless. It is not how they play on their own it is how they perform their roles. In that scenario their roles are different so its apples to oranges. Look at the numbers for the cavs when they added those scrubs playing with lebron. Mozgov shumpert and jr had big impacts during the regular season and during the playoffs. No they arent stars and yes kyrie is missed but they are definitely not scrubs.

 

[Orangezoo]

I posted the stats that show how much they suck on offense and you're like nahhh doesn't fit my argument so it doesn't count.

You posted stats about the finals and nothing else. Which fit your argument but the finals are not a large enough sample size. You have to look beyond the finals which you continue to ignore because you have nothing to support your claim.

Also tell us the statistical differences between a scrub and a non scrub... im sure that should be an entertaining response.

 

[skurey]

When you look beyond the finals their numbers improve because they had a healthy Kyrie and healthy Love. Scrubs' numbers improve playing with better players.

 

[two3zone]

How many wins do you think a Delly, Shump, JR, TT, replacement level NBA player lineup gets in the East?

25-35

 

[Orangezoo]

When you look beyond the finals their numbers improve because they had a healthy Kyrie and healthy Love. Scrubs' numbers improve playing with better players.

So the fact they raised their play in the playoffs is only because they played with kyrie and lebron not that they are vets who are good ball players who raised their own level?? Lol.. you are just throwing darts blindfolded now.

 

[Knicks411]

I agree that Melo and Monroe don't work as a 4/5 tandem besides being a small-ball lineup. If Monroe is the lock to NY as some have indicated, I think something like:

SF: Melo
PF: Porzingis
C: Monroe

might be ideal (or they could potentially make a move for a PF like a Taj Gibson or something).

Ideally, I would think the Knicks want to have the versatility to play Melo at the 3 and the 4 depending on match-ups. Banging at the 4 consistently could wear him down, but they need to be able to go small with him from time to time.

I'm not saying the guy should play every minute at the 4, but to me, the Knicks best chance for success is to try to emulate the 2013 team. I also t hink Melo is gonna get torched trying to chase aroudn 3's all year. The league is moving smaller; there are only so many teams that have 2 true bigs ont he court.

 

[Orangezoo]

What i dont get is what does giving the credit lebrons supporting cast deserves do to hurt him? He has played an amazing series and has a much better group around him even minus kyrie than many of you want to admit. If you think i am trying to dilute his accomplishments you are misguided. That said one player has to have a decent squad around him to accomplish what the cavs have. Mind you the east was weak this year but his compatriots were big this year. Kyrie was a loss yes but again thats 1 player. Give credit to those guys who did well including the things that dont show in the stat sheets.

 

[skurey]

So the fact they raised their play in the playoffs is only because they played with kyrie and lebron not that they are vets who are good ball players who raised their own level?? Lol.. you are just throwing darts blindfolded now.

They didn't raise their level of play in the playoffs as I've posted time and again. The Cavs had the best offense in the league with their main lineup. Now it's a miracle if they shoot above 40% in a game.