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baseball Hall of Fame

KaiserUEO

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any thoughts??

with piazza getting in, it might open it up for the steroid generation.

i think bonds and clemens should make it.

torn on manny & arod, i guess the answer is no.

dont think any other steroid guy is worth it.

if you are 1 of those people who group Pettitte with roids, for starters i cant help ya, but he would be too close regardless. hope he makes it.

Tim Raines is still trying to get out of Rickey's shadow, but will make it next year.

looks like bagwell and hoffman will too. maybe 2 more years for hoffman.

edgar has 3 years left...and needs A LOT of votes, which doesnt bode well for papi either.
 
any thoughts??

with piazza getting in, it might open it up for the steroid generation.

i think bonds and clemens should make it.

The holier-than-thou baseball writers make me sick. Gaylord Perry, Cap Anson and Ty Cobb are in the Hall. These guys are pure HOF material, steroids or not.


torn on manny & arod, i guess the answer is no.

See above on ARod. I am ambivalent on Manny, but if no Palmero or McGwire, then no Manny.

dont think any other steroid guy is worth it.

if you are 1 of those people who group Pettite with roids, for starters i cant help ya, but he would be too close regardless. hope he makes it.
Only if you believe Pettite about the one time use. I just don't think of him as HOF. I think of Jack Morris as a HOFer before Pettite.

Tim Raines is still trying to get out of Rickey's shadow, but will make it next year.
Raines should be in.

looks like bagwell and hoffman will too. maybe 2 more years for hoffman.
Not sure on Bagwell, but HOffman needs to be in.

edgar has 3 years left...and needs A LOT of votes, which doesnt bode well for papi either.
If you create a specialty positio, you can't punish guys for being good at it.
 
great points Cap', always loved your handle...great episode.

anyway, on the last one...i struggle with it.

im an AL guy who is ok with the DH, yet i punish them when it comes to HOF.

i look at molitor and i go...bastard got a 1000+ hits after getting off his barca-lounger.

for whatever reason, to me...theyre like a middle reliever.

theyre not the closer, coming in with it all on the line. they get to come up to bat 4x a game, most often not in pressure situations, all rested...and just hit.

plus it also allows me to troll redsox people and tell them their hero papi is NEVER getting in...
 
Not voting a guy into the HOF isn't punishing him though. That said, Edgar Martinez was a hell of a hitter.
Pretty sure Pettitte already walked back the "one time" defense, only after already being caught in a lie about it. Well, a second lie, the first lie was when he said he never used. But the media likes him so it;s ok.

Bagwell is for sure in for me. For people who are pro Hoffman, what are your thoughts on Wagner? He doesn't have the saves but he's probably better at everything else.
 
any thoughts??

with piazza getting in, it might open it up for the steroid generation.

i think bonds and clemens should make it. Should have been first ballot Hall of Famers.

torn on manny & arod, i guess the answer is no. First ballot for ARod. Manny, I'm leaning toward yes but may take a couple years. Speaking of which Sheffield is completely overlooked for the HoF and has very eerily similar statistics (offensive and defensive) as Manny. Except everyone (teammates, media) hated Shef.

dont think any other steroid guy is worth it. Disagree. Make different penalties if you don't want them in the HoF. If they have the statistics and were great then they should be in HoF. See Manny.

if you are 1 of those people who group Pettitte with roids, for starters i cant help ya, but he would be too close regardless. hope he makes it. Pettitte should not be in. Moose was better player and on worse Orioles teams and I don't think he is a HoF.

Tim Raines is still trying to get out of Rickey's shadow, but will make it next year. Agree, should be in.

looks like bagwell and hoffman will too. maybe 2 more years for hoffman. Bagwell should be in. Hoffman I'm torn and haven't made a decision yet.

edgar has 3 years left...and needs A LOT of votes, which doesnt bode well for papi either. Agree. Undecided on both.
More importantly I'd like to amend the HoF voting for MLB. Players, Coaches, Umpires, Fan Council, & BBWAA. All votes are public.
 
Not voting a guy into the HOF isn't punishing him though. That said, Edgar Martinez was a hell of a hitter.
Pretty sure Pettitte already walked back the "one time" defense, only after already being caught in a lie about it. Well, a second lie, the first lie was when he said he never used. But the media likes him so it;s ok.

Bagwell is for sure in for me. For people who are pro Hoffman, what are your thoughts on Wagner? He doesn't have the saves but he's probably better at everything else.
not sure what you mean on Pettitte, but anyway...for wags...not unless Lee Arthur Smith gets in.
 
not sure what you mean on Pettitte, but anyway...for wags...not unless Lee Arthur Smith gets in.

I mean pettitte lied about usage at least once. (my memory says twice, I could now be wrong on that so I'll back off it)

Wagner kills Smith in just about everything except saves. 3.00 ERA vs 2.31, 1.25 WHIP vs 1.00. A lot fewer innings though, which is a far knock. But I've got Wagner way ahead of Lee Smith. (neither is probably going in)
 
what i meant on no more steroid guys is...is there any others still out there?

i guess irod.

mcgwire and palmiero are done. sosa is about to be. so all that will be left is manny and arod.

and if we are giving bonds and clemens ins for being HOFers before they 'allegedly' starting using, by using that definition, i dont know where to put manny & arod.

if we believe arod, it was in texas...well that means 14 of his 21 years he used, or 20 if this past year was roid-free.

lord knows with manny.

i believe they all used.
 
what i meant on no more steroid guys is...is there any others still out there?

i guess irod.

mcgwire and palmiero are done. sosa is about to be. so all that will be left is manny and arod.

and if we are giving bonds and clemens ins for being HOFers before they 'allegedly' starting using, by using that definition, i dont know where to put manny & arod.

if we believe arod, it was in texas...well that means 14 of his 21 years he used, or 20 if this past year was roid-free.

lord knows with manny.

i believe they all used.


Canseco pretty much said he injected Pudge, no? So I assume he's gotta be considered one. Pudge, Manny, Arod; those are the big ones I can think of. Another issue is you have these guys, and Bonds/Clemens (Sosa, mcGwire, etc), who should be in on merit, but aren't, but remain on the ballot and take votes from other guys
 
I mean pettitte lied about usage at least once. (my memory says twice, I could now be wrong on that so I'll back off it)

Wagner kills Smith in just about everything except saves. 3.00 ERA vs 2.31, 1.25 WHIP vs 1.00. A lot fewer innings though, which is a far knock. But I've got Wagner way ahead of Lee Smith. (neither is probably going in)
i dont remember him lying, unless you are counting when the whole world at 1st said...i didnt use.

then after the witchunt, where all the mitchell report got was the clubhouse guys from the stadiums right down the street before they had a chance run...then after that, he came right out and said he used HGH to recover in the offseason.

anyway, good point on moose.

as for smith and wags, youre right they both might not make it. but as for smith, he had about 400 more innings, era and whip is bound to go up.

they were both dominant for their era's, problem is their era made the save almost a joke stat.

at the end of the day, if they both make it, 1 makes it or none make it...i will agree with the decision.

theyre not biggio, dawson and jim rice.
 
He said he only used it one time to recover from an injury, then he later admitted to using it a few years later.

Biggio I think is definitely deserving; the other 2 I'm with you on.

Smith did have more innings, which is fair, but I don't think he was really as close to dominant as Wagner, which is where I give him the edge. As far as WHIP goes, Smith never had one season in his career with a WHIP of 1.00, which is Wagner's career mark. He had 2 full seasons with an ERA below 2.31, which is Wagner's career era.

I was always a big Wagner fan, so I'm gonna stump for him.
 
Pettitte is a border line HOFer imo, setting aside the roids. The 256 wins and the postseason performances are impressive. On the other hand a career ERA of 3.85 - not so much. Also interesting is that in his long career he finished top three in CY voting only once. That kind of says it all. Very steady but not spectacular.

I know it hurts you to contemplate this but Papi will be in the HOF. Maybe not first ballot but it won't take long.

500+ HRs and probably the best post-season player of his generation. If being in the middle of three WS titles doesn't do the trick then the HOF is a joke.
 
Pettitte is a border line HOFer imo, setting aside the roids. The 256 wins and the postseason performances are impressive. On the other hand a career ERA of 3.85 - not so much. Also interesting is that in his long career he finished top three in CY voting only once. That kind of says it all. Very steady but not spectacular.

I know it hurts you to contemplate this but Papi will be in the HOF. Maybe not first ballot but it won't take long.

500+ HRs and probably the best post-season player of his generation. If being in the middle of three WS titles doesn't do the trick then the HOF is a joke.

He might have some steroid taint on him.

Is Pettitte's post-season performance that impressive? Other than the sheer volume of it. Career 3.81 ERA isn't amazing. Great record though. (pitched for a great team a lot of the time)
 
He said he only used it one time to recover from an injury, then he later admitted to using it a few years later.

Biggio I think is definitely deserving; the other 2 I'm with you on.

Smith did have more innings, which is fair, but I don't think he was really as close to dominant as Wagner, which is where I give him the edge. As far as WHIP goes, Smith never had one season in his career with a WHIP of 1.00, which is Wagner's career mark. He had 2 full seasons with an ERA below 2.31, which is Wagner's career era.

I was always a big Wagner fan, so I'm gonna stump for him.
you might be right, dont know. just remember thinking that this is nothing.

im actually ok with biggio...he compiled to a magic #.

the others didnt.

wags and smith are interesting cases. yes, smith whip is higher, but as we talked about he had 8 years over 80 innings, wags had 1. regardless, im fine any way it shakes out, dont really have a dog in that fight. Bernie being bounced in year 1 or so really pissed me off.

id put arod in. i dont think we will ever get rid of him. he will always be in baseball in some capacity. its just who he is.

im ok with irod in the hall too.

manny i dont care. hell, i dont think he does either.

now if you want to fight with my dog Thurman Munson...i can go all night. :mad: ;)
 
Pettitte is a border line HOFer imo, setting aside the roids. The 256 wins and the postseason performances are impressive. On the other hand a career ERA of 3.85 - not so much. Also interesting is that in his long career he finished top three in CY voting only once. That kind of says it all. Very steady but not spectacular.

I know it hurts you to contemplate this but Papi will be in the HOF. Maybe not first ballot but it won't take long.

500+ HRs and probably the best post-season player of his generation. If being in the middle of three WS titles doesn't do the trick then the HOF is a joke.
Bernie Williams says hello.
 
My man Carlos Beltran is a pretty damn good playoff performer too. Papi probably has him though. Beltran has better numbers but he doesn't have as many games nor the number of big time homers Papi does
 
He might have some steroid taint on him.

Is Pettitte's post-season performance that impressive? Other than the sheer volume of it. Career 3.81 ERA isn't amazing. Great record though. (pitched for a great team a lot of the time)

Can't argue with that.
 
Bernie Williams says hello.

Good to hear from Bernie. Great postseason #s no doubt, but not quite on the level of the Large Father's. BW had 22 HRs and 80 RBIs in 545 PAs. Ortiz had 17/60 in just 352 PAs. Ortiz' OPS in the postseason was more than 100 points higher.
 
My man Carlos Beltran is a pretty damn good playoff performer too. Papi probably has him though. Beltran has better numbers but he doesn't have as many games nor the number of big time homers Papi does

Amazing postseason #s. No titles though.
 
any thoughts??

with piazza getting in, it might open it up for the steroid generation.

i think bonds and clemens should make it.

torn on manny & arod, i guess the answer is no.

dont think any other steroid guy is worth it.

if you are 1 of those people who group Pettitte with roids, for starters i cant help ya, but he would be too close regardless. hope he makes it.

Tim Raines is still trying to get out of Rickey's shadow, but will make it next year.

looks like bagwell and hoffman will too. maybe 2 more years for hoffman.

edgar has 3 years left...and needs A LOT of votes, which doesnt bode well for papi either.

We need to get this guy a plaque in Cooperstown.

 
Raines, Bagwell, Hoffman get in next year.
Vlad will be in the 50's/60's and will eventually get in.
Schilling will move up and eventually get in.
Mussina will move up but he is behind Schilling in the order.
Bonds/Clemens should be HOFs but the PED taint will kill them.
Pudge/Manny will have PEDs taint.
 
Ortiz is an interesting case. As a Red Sox fan I can say I am bias. I think the PED barrier will have be gone for him to get in but he is better than Bernie Williams. Ortiz has been a dominant hitter since 2003 and his postseason success is crazy. Go look at his World Series numbers they are ridiculous. I don't think he will get in for a while but he should get in eventually.

I think Edgar Martinez and Jeff Kent deserve more respect. They are closer than the numbers they are getting.
 

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