Broken Approach needs to change

[jordoo]

I'm sure this has been pretty hashed out since Saturday but I haven't really read anything so here are my thoughts.

I've had a couple days to think about things and yes its easy to be mad at Quade Green or Calipari, or UK or WWW but that doesn't change anything and its not really the correct place to lay the blame IMO. You can say what you want about any of those referenced above and there is likely some truth to it but this one goes on our staff plain and simple. Its the approach that is flawed. It didn't work with Battle but we lucked out, it didn't work with Bryant and now it hasn't worked with Green. You simply cannot give up on recruiting other good players you like at the same position and focus on one player UNLESS that player has actually verbally committed and even then they need to sign during the next signing period.

SU did everything they could to get Green to come to SU but he never committed and he never signed. Looking back with a clear head its now easy to see why. He was looking for something and while it is infuriating that he did and said what he needed to to keep his spot safe at SU it was our staff that allowed him to do that. When we got involved with Coleman and set up a visit who came running to SU for a surprise visit? Green. Then Coleman is saying that SU is going to focus on Green and he cancelled his visit. How does the staff allow this. I think at that point Green knew he could string us along all the way till the end and if he didn't get what he wanted from UK he would still have a safe landing place at SU with lots of playing time available.

I don't know how it went down with Green on that visit but the staff has to put the ball back in his court if he is indicating that he doesn't want us recruiting other PG's. Say something like "Quade, you are our #1 guy, we love your game, you are the guy we want all you have to do is verbally commit and sign these papers. We can't be left with an empty cupboard and its getting late in the process. We are sure that you are our PG but are you sure? You can end our recruitment of other PG's whenever you want to." I'm not saying threaten the kid, I'm saying put the ball in his court and make it clear that its on him to pull the trigger or not but we aren't waiting forever. Even if a guy walks away at that point you have more time and more options.

I'm sure the staff has also figured this out and will make the adjustment. I'm not throwing them under the buss just pointing out an obviously flawed approach that has happened the last few cycles. It may have been a reaction to NCAA sanctions and recruiting restrictions to just really concentrate on certain players but it hasn't worked out well especially on the ones where we completely stopped recruiting that position other than the one guy we wanted. We simply cannot afford to recruit this way going forward because it leaves the door open for all sorts of shenanigans at the end. If the kids not going to commit/sign then we keep recruiting other kids until they do as the longer they wait the more obvious it becomes that they are anything but a sure thing no matter how far in the lead we are.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I'm not sure there is a broken approach, but something is amiss right now in recruiting. Either the staff isn't willing to play the game for the high end recruits or they don't know how it's played now. Hell, if it were as easy as this, I'd have Book Richardson on the next flight to Syracuse. I'm not an insider, but it seems like SU has had to work extra hard to get a handful of recruits compared to other schools in the same class. I consider Duke, KU, UK, and AZ in the tier above SU when it comes to recruiting, but we should absolutely be able to assemble a solid class against the MSUs, UConns and Marylands of the world.

I do think SU should have recruited a lot more guys this cycle. With 5-6 openings, they should have had 30-40 offers out there. Again, I don't know if that's a budget thing (not enough funding in the travel budget to go everywhere or enough to hire another assistant to scout/recruit) or a philosophical approach where they don't want to really recruit outside the northeast. It's a little embarrassing that SU had the open schollies and the high-end talent in their backyard this year to put together a whopper of a class and they got big-boy'd by UK and AZ ('Nova isn't looking so hot either, coming off a championship and couldn't lock down one of 3 fantastic guards in their city).

 

[hoopsupstate]

100% correct. Green was just playing us for quite a while, but when we offered Coleman it really got his attention. SU should never have cancelled his visit. Looking back, they might have received a commitment from Green. He made several visits once we offered Coleman. Getting on someone early doesn't guarantee you anything. SU was almost burned by Battle and should have already learned a lesson. JB is going to leave the cupboard pretty bare if this continues.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It really shouldn't be that hard to get elite guys here . I understand it's difficult to compete recruiting wise with Duke and UK, but after that we should be right there with everyone and we basically have been until this cycle.

 

[nyucuse]

It really shouldn't be that hard to get elite guys here . I understand it's difficult to compete recruiting wise with Duke and UK, but after that we should be right there with everyone and we basically have been until this cycle.

And it generally hasn't been. After the obligatory UK, Duke, KU (Zona, UNC), we recruit as well as anybody. This year is a bit baffling to me.

 

[jordoo]

And it generally hasn't been. After the obligatory UK, Duke, KU (Zona, UNC), we recruit as well as anybody. This year is a bit baffling to me.

They guys we wanted are also all involved with basically the schools you listed.

 

[nyucuse]

They guys we wanted are also all involved with basically the schools you listed.

Agree. But an 0-fer is not acceptable. We should be getting some of them, or casting a net wide enough to get guys a bit lower down the ranking scale.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Yeah, for the top end recruits we simply are striking out. I'm not sure of all the reasons but something is up as indicated in this thread. Whether JB doesn't have patience to play this game, the Dome morgue factor, housing factor, zone defense factor, etc... Maybe recruits are uncertain about transition to Hop as well. I don't know. We can't go head to head in a recruiting VS Kentucky, Duke, Arizona, and maybe UNC/Louisville/Kansas right now. Just not happening although things at UL should change. We're good against other eastern teams like UConn/Georgetown and Big 10 teams like MSU (TT confirms this) but we just can't compete with those other teams. Maybe we just need to accept it and understand that current recruiting pecking order it seems we are in and not get our hopes up too much with these real 5* dudes. Ugh.

 

[Brooky03]

If/when we get Battle and Howard back next season, we simply don't need a top level guard. Would it be nice to have one? Sure, but the two we already have will make for a backcourt that's better than all but maybe 2 or 3 in the ACC next season, at their worst. That means grabbing some 4 star backup guard late isn't a problem.

I'm more concerned with our progress, or lack thereof, in recruiting frontcourt players, specifically Center. Thompson looks really good at PF, Moyer should be okay at SF, and we all hope Chukwu progresses at Center, but we could definitely improve upon what's already there in the frontcourt; yet, I haven't seen much progress with the recruitment of really good big men unless I'm missing something.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Yeah, for the top end recruits we simply are striking out. I'm not sure of all the reasons but something is up as indicated in this thread. Whether JB doesn't have patience to play this game, the Dome morgue factor, housing factor, zone defense factor, etc... Maybe recruits are uncertain about transition to Hop as well. I don't know. We can't go head to head in a recruiting VS Kentucky, Duke, Arizona, and maybe UNC/Kansas right now. Just not happening. We're good against other eastern teams like UConn/Georgetown and Big 10 teams like MSU (TT confirms this) but we just can't compete with those other teams. Maybe we just need to accept it and understand that current recruiting pecking order it seems we are in and not get our hopes up too much with these real 5* dudes. Ugh.

UNC is recruiting the same type of talent we are, but it just so happens their 4* guys are staying 4 years while ours stay 1 or 2.

 

[SoBeCuse]

UNC is recruiting the same type of talent we are, but it just so happens their 4* guys are staying 4 years while ours stay 1 or 2.

True. I wasn't sure to even include them since we rarely are directly competing with them. They seem to mine the south and FL pretty well and we don't go in there much. Louisville is worth mentioning though. VJ King, Onuaku's brother, etc. Guys that would've been nice to have.

 

[rrlbees]

I'm sure this has been pretty hashed out since Saturday but I haven't really read anything so here are my thoughts. I've had a couple days to think about things and yes its easy to be mad at Quade Green or Calipari, or UK or WWW but that doesn't change anything and its not really the correct place to lay the blame IMO. You can say what you want about any of those referenced above and there is likely some truth to it but this one goes on our staff plain and simple. Its the approach that is flawed. It didn't work with Battle but we lucked out, it didn't work with Bryant and now it hasn't worked with Green. You simply cannot give up on recruiting other good players you like at the same position and focus on one player UNLESS that player has actually verbally committed and even then they need to sign during the next signing period. SU did everything they could to get Green to come to SU but he never committed and he never signed. Looking back with a clear head its now easy to see why. He was looking for something and while it is infuriating that he did and said what he needed to to keep his spot safe at SU it was our staff that allowed him to do that. When we got involved with Coleman and set up a visit who came running to SU for a surprise visit? Green. Then Coleman is saying that SU is going to focus on Green and he cancelled his visit. How does the staff allow this. I think at that point Green knew he could string us along all the way till the end and if he didn't get what he wanted from UK he would still have a safe landing place at SU with lots of playing time available. I don't know how it went down with Green on that visit but the staff has to put the ball back in his court if he is indicating that he doesn't want us recruiting other PG's. Say something like "Quade, you are our #1 guy, we love your game, you are the guy we want all you have to do is verbally commit and sign these papers. We can't be left with an empty cupboard and its getting late in the process. We are sure that you are our PG but are you sure? You can end our recruitment of other PG's whenever you want to." I'm not saying threaten the kid, I'm saying put the ball in his court and make it clear that its on him to pull the trigger or not but we aren't waiting forever. Even if a guy walks away at that point you have more time and more options. I'm sure the staff has also figured this out and will make the adjustment. I'm not throwing them under the buss just pointing out an obviously flawed approach that has happened the last few cycles. It may have been a reaction to NCAA sanctions and recruiting restrictions to just really concentrate on certain players but it hasn't worked out well especially on the ones where we completely stopped recruiting that position other than the one guy we wanted. We simply cannot afford to recruit this way going forward because it leaves the door open for all sorts of shenanigans at the end. If the kids not going to commit/sign then we keep recruiting other kids until they do as the longer they wait the more obvious it becomes that they are anything but a sure thing no matter how far in the lead we are.

What was he looking for that caused him to drag us along? It wasn't a Kentucky offer, he had that.

 

[721Comstock]

Our M.O. for recruiting top guys has been - to get involved before they become top guys, then try to hold on for dear life as the Duke's and UK's of the world come calling later.

Carmelo is the poster boy for this, but guys like Dion and MCW fit the mold too.

Green appeared to be the next one, but...

We generally don't win straight up against Duke or UK, which is why historically, JB didn't go after those kinda guys, or punted when it became clear that we were running a distant 2nd or 3rd behind a bigger name program.

This year - we went after a LOT of the top guys.
Which is something many of us, myself included, have been wanting us to do for YEARS.
Unfortunately, it didn't pan out. This time.

 

[Fly Rodder]

What was he looking for that caused him to drag us along? It wasn't a Kentucky offer, he had that.

Don't know, what did SU promise him? A starting job at PG? Seems to be that's what he got from UK.

 

[jordoo]

What was he looking for that caused him to drag us along? It wasn't a Kentucky offer, he had that.

Something SU wasn't offering.

 

[Scotch]

Don't know, what did SU promise him? A starting job at PG? Seems to be that's what he got from UK.

With sprinkles on top.

 

[Jack Hall]

I'm sure this has been pretty hashed out since Saturday but I haven't really read anything so here are my thoughts.

I've had a couple days to think about things and yes its easy to be mad at Quade Green or Calipari, or UK or WWW but that doesn't change anything and its not really the correct place to lay the blame IMO. You can say what you want about any of those referenced above and there is likely some truth to it but this one goes on our staff plain and simple. Its the approach that is flawed. It didn't work with Battle but we lucked out, it didn't work with Bryant and now it hasn't worked with Green. You simply cannot give up on recruiting other good players you like at the same position and focus on one player UNLESS that player has actually verbally committed and even then they need to sign during the next signing period.

SU did everything they could to get Green to come to SU but he never committed and he never signed. Looking back with a clear head its now easy to see why. He was looking for something and while it is infuriating that he did and said what he needed to to keep his spot safe at SU it was our staff that allowed him to do that. When we got involved with Coleman and set up a visit who came running to SU for a surprise visit? Green. Then Coleman is saying that SU is going to focus on Green and he cancelled his visit. How does the staff allow this. I think at that point Green knew he could string us along all the way till the end and if he didn't get what he wanted from UK he would still have a safe landing place at SU with lots of playing time available.

I don't know how it went down with Green on that visit but the staff has to put the ball back in his court if he is indicating that he doesn't want us recruiting other PG's. Say something like "Quade, you are our #1 guy, we love your game, you are the guy we want all you have to do is verbally commit and sign these papers. We can't be left with an empty cupboard and its getting late in the process. We are sure that you are our PG but are you sure? You can end our recruitment of other PG's whenever you want to." I'm not saying threaten the kid, I'm saying put the ball in his court and make it clear that its on him to pull the trigger or not but we aren't waiting forever. Even if a guy walks away at that point you have more time and more options.

I'm sure the staff has also figured this out and will make the adjustment. I'm not throwing them under the buss just pointing out an obviously flawed approach that has happened the last few cycles. It may have been a reaction to NCAA sanctions and recruiting restrictions to just really concentrate on certain players but it hasn't worked out well especially on the ones where we completely stopped recruiting that position other than the one guy we wanted. We simply cannot afford to recruit this way going forward because it leaves the door open for all sorts of shenanigans at the end. If the kids not going to commit/sign then we keep recruiting other kids until they do as the longer they wait the more obvious it becomes that they are anything but a sure thing no matter how far in the lead we are.

Good post but I dont get the big deal about Green. Is he a great player ? Yes. Did i want him to come here? Of course. Would have made a big difference next year? Not so sure. The year after? Probably! In the end imo thats why he went to uk. He saw a clear chance to start at pg at uk and with Howard here (and he got to see him up close with his teammates against colgate) he probably realized it was not guaranteed he would start at SU at pg next year. And then he obviously was not convincing other big recruits like Richards, Walker, Randolf, Bamba etc to come here while uk was signing those types of guys. Nothing new there.
In the end guess what, if Howard comes back we likely have a better pg than uk does next year. Its all good! We now need a legit shooter (ie Tucker or a transfer?) and a back up pg. No biggy. I dont see why we let some kid green or clown uk get Cuse Nation all worked up. We are better than that. Guess why cal gets all the big recruits? He acts like, we re uk, you can come here and play with the best young puppy studs or if you cant hack it, get lost and go somewhere else! My only slight complaint with the coaching staff is that they go after these 5 star kids and then yes, as you say , IF they allowed some kid like green to string us along. Should never allow that to happen. Imo spoiling 17 yr old kids and allowing them to treat you like their beyatches is a big mistake. If that ever happened. Otherwise all is very good in Cuse Nation. Go SU

 

[newmexicuse]

Good post but I dont get the big deal about Green. Is he a great player ? Yes. Did i want him to come here? Of course. Would have made a big difference next year? Not so sure. The year after? Probably! In the end imo thats why he went to uk. He saw a clear chance to start at pg at uk and with Howard here (and he got to see him up close with his teammates against colgate) he probably realized it was not guaranteed he would start at SU at pg next year. And then he obviously was not convincing other big recruits like Richards, Walker, Randolf, Bamba etc to come here while uk was signing those types of guys. Nothing new there.
In the end guess what, if Howard comes back we likely have a better pg than uk does next year. Its all good! We now need a legit shooter (ie Tucker of a transfer?) and a back up pg. No biggy. I dont see why we let some kid green or clown uk get Cuse Nation all worked up. We are better than that. Guess why cal gets all the big recruits? He acts like, we re uk, you can come here and play with the best young puppy studs or if you cant hack it, get lost and go somewhere else! My only slight complaint with the coaching staff is that Yhey go after these 5 star kids and then yes, as you say , IF they allowed some kid like green to string us along. Should never allow that to happen. Imo spoiling 17 yr old kids and allowing them to treat you like their beyatches is a big mistake. If that ever happened. Otherwise all is very good in Cuse Nation. Go SU

Maybe you have it backwards. Who he will be playing with had to be a factor in his decision. Maybe our inability to attract any of the other top players helped him to decide upon Kentucky. We should have easily had three or four commitments by now even if they were players ranked below the Top 50. That would help solidify the roster & still leave plenty of room at the inn if any of the higher ranking targets wanted to come play at the Dome. Let's be honest, if we don't salvage this class, based upon what we have coming back right now, next year will be NIT city.

 

[Jack Hall]

Maybe you have it backwards. Who he will be playing with had to be a factor in his decision. Maybe our inability to attract any of the other top players helped him to decide upon Kentucky. We should have easily had three or four commitments by now even if they were players ranked below the Top 50. That would help solidify the roster & still leave plenty of room at the inn if any of the higher ranking targets wanted to come play at the Dome. Let's be honest, if we don't salvage this class, based upon what we have coming back right now, next year will be NIT city.

How on earth do you have a defeatist attitude and compete in sports? We very well could have a lineup of Howard, Battle, Moyer, Thompson, Chuckwu, with Brisset, Sidibe, and maybe someone like Tucker or a 5th year transfer coming off the bench. There is no way that is a NIT lineup. The time to worry and get negative is if Howard or Battle decide to leave early. But that is months away. All is currently good in Cuse Nation...but thats just me

 

[dasher]

Something SU wasn't offering.

He committed to us Monday night. That is a fact.

 

[jordoo]

He committed to us Monday night. That is a fact.

Understood.

 

[ar inj]

If I am a recruit I want to know who my coach will be in 2 years, what his plans are and how he will coach the team. The coach and SU have allowed that to become very muddled and uncertainty is not good.

I also never understand why everyone thinks that if a prospect is in their school's "backyard," they have lost "their recruit" because he picks some other school. Lots of kids want to get away, and for reasons that may have nothing to do with basketball.

Time to move on. SU has done great w/o Top 10 or Top 25 recruits. SU probably can continue to do so, but who the coach will be should be cleared up (or maybe kids have been told they only get 1 year of JAB and that is not appealing).

 

[newmexicuse]

How on earth do you have a defeatist attitude and compete in sports? We very well could have a lineup of Howard, Battle, Moyer, Thompson, Chuckwu, with Brisset, Sidibe, and maybe someone like Tucker or a 5th year transfer coming off the bench. There is no way that is a NIT lineup. The time to worry and get negative is if Howard or Battle decide to leave early. But that is months away. All is currently good in Cuse Nation...but thats just me

Anybody who doesn't post what RF or yourself wants to hear is suddenly a defeatist. I prefer to use the term realist. You can be realistic about something without giving up. I will root just as hard whether I think our team is NC caliber or NIT caliber.

Look at the lineup that you cited - nobody proven up front and nobody who any opponent would find scary from three point range. If by some chance Lydon came back that would be huge both for the frontcourt and the trey shooting. Battle & Howard are making a few, but both don't have great trey shooting forms & they will lack consistency from distance unless they can improve their form.

I did not say that we can't salvage this class, way too early for that. All I said is that what we have RIGHT now spells NIT.

The game has changed - three point shooting is a necessity. We need to find at least two wings who are good enough overall to get on the court & good enough to drill it from afar consistently. If we don't find some help we will not be dancing next season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Anybody who doesn't post what RF or yourself wants to hear is suddenly a defeatist. I prefer to use the term realist. You can be realistic about something without giving up. I will root just as hard whether I think our team is NC caliber or NIT caliber.

Look at the lineup that you cited - nobody proven up front and nobody who any opponent would find scary from three point range. If by some chance Lydon came back that would be huge both for the frontcourt and the trey shooting. Battle & Howard are making a few, but both don't have great trey shooting forms & they will lack consistency from distance unless they can improve their form.

I did not say that we can't salvage this class, way too early for that. All I said is that what we have RIGHT now spells NIT.

The game has changed - three point shooting is a necessity. We need to find at least two wings who are good enough overall to get on the court & good enough to drill it from afar consistently. If we don't find some help we will not be dancing next season.

Have you watched the games this year? Battle and Howard have been great from the outside.

 

[newmexicuse]

Have you watched the games this year? Battle and Howard have been great from the outside.

No, I have not seen any games so far. I am looking forward to getting some broadcasts out here in NM. However, the looks they are getting against Colgate will not be the looks that they will get against Duke.

Even, if those guys are the real deal from trey range, you still need 4 or 5 trey shooters on the roster and 1 or 2 of them have to be frontcourt players. That is why we are so good this year and that is why next year's team needs more help.