Dispute Over Football Staff Size May Lead to New NCAA Rules

[sufandu]

Yes, I did, and it wasn't what you're saying... Regardless, we're obviously on opposite ends of the spectrum. I respect your point, but, disagree.

You're right I did alter my argument. The main point remained the same though. The NCAA places all kinds of limitations on schools to maintain some sort of equality. Based on your argument of a school being allowed to spend their budget however they please, the factories should be allowed to hire more than the 9 allowed coaches (earlier I included scholarships as a way a budget could be spent if not limited by the NCAA to illustrate a point). The NCAA doesn't allow unlimited coaches, so a precedent is already set. If they think an unfair advantage is being gained, they can certainly place a limit on support staff. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Finwad32]

You're right I did alter my argument. The main point remained the same though. The NCAA places all kinds of limitations on schools to maintain some sort of equality. Based on your argument of a school being allowed to spend their budget however they please, the factories should be allowed to hire more than the 9 allowed coaches (earlier I included scholarships as a way a budget could be spent if not limited by the NCAA to illustrate a point). The NCAA doesn't allow unlimited coaches, so a precedent is already set. If they think an unfair advantage is being gained, they can certainly place a limit on support staff. We will have to agree to disagree.

Ok, now we're in the same page. Yes coaches are limited, support staff is not. I believe that support staff should be a function of your budget, the higher the budget, the more support you should have the ability to hire. Syracuse could hire the same amount as Fla. St., they choose not to. Everything, IMO, cannot be regulated. At some point, it's on the program to decide what to invest. If you want 5 video guys, one of which is a blue chip's father, then that's your budget. You can't regulate everything. It will just keep moving down the line.

 

[sufandu]

Ok, now we're in the same page. Yes coaches are limited, support staff is not. I believe that support staff should be a function of your budget, the higher the budget, the more support you should have the ability to hire. Syracuse could hire the same amount as Fla. St., they choose not to. Everything, IMO, cannot be regulated. At some point, it's on the program to decide what to invest. If you want 5 video guys, one of which is a blue chip's father, then that's your budget. You can't regulate everything. It will just keep moving down the line.

I think the level of impact has to be considered. I don't have a clue as to how much of an impact this specific situation has but it seems to have enough coaches in a tizzy that it may be worth looking into. If people could just stay within the intention of the existing rules we wouldn't need more. But everyone is looking for a loophole to exploit.

 

[CuseOnly]

Businesses pay local, state, and federal taxes which they do not, so not the same thing. They can leave the NCAA any time they want if they don't want to have restrictive rules.

What exactly does being a member of the NCAA have to do with paying taxes and this situation? Churches don't pay taxes either, neither do not for profits and they both have restrictive rules in some regards and not for others.

SPORTS IS A BUSINESS regardless of whether they pay taxes or not, paying taxes as a counterpoint as to restrictive rules in a voluntary membership organizations is a ridiculous argument. THE NFL is technically a not for profit organization.

IF you have a bigger budget and have the resources, everything else being equal, they should be able to have a larger staff.

A baptist church that is 4000 sq ft and has a membership of 4000 ppl should be able to have a larger staff than a small congregation of 100 where the church is 500 sq ft. Ridiculous argument.

A larger budget with larger revenue almost on face value for just about any company paying taxes or not should have a larger staff.

 

[CuseOnly]

I think the level of impact has to be considered. I don't have a clue as to how much of an impact this specific situation has but it seems to have enough coaches in a tizzy that it may be worth looking into. If people could just stay within the intention of the existing rules we wouldn't need more. But everyone is looking for a loophole to exploit.

Difference between the spirit of the "law" and the letter of the "law". There are always rules to bend, everywhere.

 

[sufandu]

Difference between the spirit of the "law" and the letter of the "law". There are always rules to bend, everywhere.

Too true.

 

[TheCusian]

What exactly does being a member of the NCAA have to do with paying taxes and this situation? Churches don't pay taxes either, neither do not for profits and they both have restrictive rules in some regards and not for others. SPORTS IS A BUSINESS regardless of whether they pay taxes or not, paying taxes as a counterpoint as to restrictive rules in a voluntary membership organizations is a ridiculous argument. THE NFL is technically a not for profit organization. IF you have a bigger budget and have the resources, everything else being equal, they should be able to have a larger staff. A baptist church that is 4000 sq ft and has a membership of 4000 ppl should be able to have a larger staff than a small congregation of 100 where the church is 500 sq ft. Ridiculous argument. A larger budget with larger revenue almost on face value for just about any company paying taxes or not should have a larger staff.

No.

The "congregation size" in this argument is regulated by the NCAA. You can only have so many players on scholarship. FSU and Syracuse have the same number of players and coaches. Why would they need more support staff?

Like I said earlier, more ushers and vendors and janitors for larger crowds - but staff should be limited. I do think it's fair to ask if that's enforceable or where that line should be.

 

[CuseOnly]

No.

The "congregation size" in this argument is regulated by the NCAA. You can only have so many players on scholarship. FSU and Syracuse have the same number of players and coaches. Why would they need more support staff?

Like I said earlier, more ushers and vendors and janitors for larger crowds - but staff should be limited. I do think it's fair to ask if that's enforceable or where that line should be.

Coaching staff is already regulated and capped.

If I own a business, which make no mistake NCAA football is, and I have the budget to hire 20 support staff to do the job of 10 I should be allowed to.

What's next are they going to regulate the number of water bottles used...or how much can be spent on each water bottle.

There will always be have's and have not's, all the regulation in the world isn't going to stop that.

 

[cuseguy]

Then why do we bother competing with the Florida States of the world if we really can't compete?

Because, you know, it's not likely we will ever compete with them -- and coaching staff size is one of the reasons.

There should be a cap for paid coaches.

 

[TheCusian]

Coaching staff is already regulated and capped. If I own a business, which make no mistake NCAA football is, and I have the budget to hire 20 support staff to do the job of 10 I should be allowed to. What's next are they going to regulate the number of water bottles used...or how much can be spent on each water bottle. There will always be have's and have not's, all the regulation in the world isn't going to stop that.

It's right to ask where the line should be and we can disagree on support staff. I just think if it's gaining you an unfair advantage in recruiting (where things already get wacky) it should be looked at.

It's not a traditional business that's for sure. A business predicated on winning is different than one predicated on $ alone. That's why there are laws making things more fair in every sport. People stop watching if it's stacked too much. Parity makes things more enjoyable - and I think the NFL has proven it. If the big boys want the NCAA to act more like the NFL then they should get ready for more stuff like this.

 

[CuseOnly]

It's right to ask where the line should be and we can disagree on support staff. I just think if it's gaining you an unfair advantage in recruiting (where things already get wacky) it should be looked at.

It's not a traditional business that's for sure. A business predicated on winning is different than one predicated on $ alone. That's why there are laws making things more fair in every sport. People stop watching if it's stacked too much. Parity makes things more enjoyable - and I think the NFL has proven it. If the big boys want the NCAA to act more like the NFL then they should get ready for more stuff like this.

Is it unfair to have more fans, a larger budget, more money to spend if you've earned it? No.

The NFL grew to the powerhouse it is today with the Cowboys and 49ers spending more money than everybody else forever. I am/was a huge NFL and Cowboys fan and now that they aren't any good because of the salary cap, I rarely watch.

You end up with 32 mediocre teams with fans rooting for laundry because nobody stays anywhere anymore.

The NFL also has no limit on coaching staff and support staff with unlimited budgets basically. They seem to reign themselves in just fine, I don't see too many NFL organizations with 1000 staff members because they have Billions to spend and no limits.

 

[TheCusian]

Is it unfair to have more fans, a larger budget, more money to spend if you've earned it? No. The NFL grew to the powerhouse it is today with the Cowboys and 49ers spending more money than everybody else forever. I am/was a huge NFL and Cowboys fan and now that they aren't any good because of the salary cap, I rarely watch. You end up with 32 mediocre teams with fans rooting for laundry because nobody stays anywhere anymore. The NFL also has no limit on coaching staff and support staff with unlimited budgets basically. They seem to reign themselves in just fine, I don't see too many NFL organizations with 1000 staff members because they have Billions to spend and no limits.

NFL teams get good because of good coaching (same as CFB) and good roster management/cap management. The rules in the NFL are the most stringent around player acquisition and the cap. CFB teams get good because of good coaching and recruiting. There's a reason for all the rules governing recruiting. The amount of support staff you have doesn't help you with the cap. But the amount of support staff could influence recruiting. And the NFL is the biggest sport in this country with or without your viewership - they are doing something right. Players don't move around as much as you think anyways. As for your first point - yeah teams with more fans and more money should spend their money. Just not on gaining an unfair advantage in recruiting.

 

[Finwad32]

Then why do we bother competing with the Florida States of the world if we really can't compete?

Because, you know, it's not likely we will ever compete with them -- and coaching staff size is one of the reasons.

There should be a cap for paid coaches.

There is.

 

[Finwad32]

NFL teams get good because of good coaching (same as CFB) and good roster management/cap management. The rules in the NFL are the most stringent around player acquisition and the cap. CFB teams get good because of good coaching and recruiting. There's a reason for all the rules governing recruiting. The amount of support staff you have doesn't help you with the cap. But the amount of support staff could influence recruiting. And the NFL is the biggest sport in this country with or without your viewership - they are doing something right. Players don't move around as much as you think anyways. As for your first point - yeah teams with more fans and more money should spend their money. Just not on gaining an unfair advantage in recruiting.

It's not an unfair advantage. Just an advantage. Syracuse could do the same thing, as could Wake Forest and Illinois.

 

[cuseguy]

There is.

Finwald. What's the deal?

Are you a lot of the extra coaches volunteers or are they taking less money?

 

[Finwad32]

Finwald. What's the deal?

Are you a lot of the extra coaches volunteers or are they taking less money?

I'm sure they're getting paid in some capacity and I'm sure there are some that may volunteer. Essentially a lot of these guys probably just get access to meetings and practices, as well as probably the sideline during games. They're probably asked to do very basic tasks like setting up drill stations, spotting the ball during practice, cutting up film, etc. if they're even asked to do anything at all.

The trick is they're filling these staff positions with HS Coaches and parents/friends of players. They put them on for a year or 2, get their recruit and cut bait. It's a win for everyone involved. The only downside is the coaching staff has to deal with guys they probably wouldn't typically on their staff.

I'm sure the amount they're paid can vary tremendously.

 

[cuseguy]

I'm sure they're getting paid in some capacity and I'm sure there are some that may volunteer. Essentially a lot of these guys probably just get access to meetings and practices, as well as probably the sideline during games. They're probably asked to do very basic tasks like setting up drill stations, spotting the ball during practice, cutting up film, etc. if they're even asked to do anything at all. The trick is they're filling these staff positions with HS Coaches and parents/friends of players. They put them on for a year or 2, get their recruit and cut bait. It's a win for everyone involved. The only downside is the coaching staff has to deal with guys they probably wouldn't typically on their staff. I'm sure the amount they're paid can vary tremendously.

Thanks.

Sounds like there's a lot to it. Just hope the FSUs aren't paying them under the table.

Not much different than a lot of big-time high school programs that have a load of volunteers.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[TheCusian]

It's not an unfair advantage. Just an advantage. Syracuse could do the same thing, as could Wake Forest and Illinois.

And if there weren't a rule about it FSU could pay its players more too. Most sports can't operate without rules governing how $ is spent in the name of creating a more equal playing field. It's unfair if it's unsustainable by all teams in the p5.

There is no doubt there is an advantage. It's the NCAA's job to see if it's influencing things too much and if it's something they want to regulate.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm sure they're getting paid in some capacity and I'm sure there are some that may volunteer. Essentially a lot of these guys probably just get access to meetings and practices, as well as probably the sideline during games. They're probably asked to do very basic tasks like setting up drill stations, spotting the ball during practice, cutting up film, etc. if they're even asked to do anything at all. The trick is they're filling these staff positions with HS Coaches and parents/friends of players. They put them on for a year or 2, get their recruit and cut bait. It's a win for everyone involved. The only downside is the coaching staff has to deal with guys they probably wouldn't typically on their staff. I'm sure the amount they're paid can vary tremendously.

Wait - and you're for it. I'd be more inclined towards your position if they had a job that was a legit need filled by competent candidate and an actual hiring process.

If this is the norm, if expect the NCAA to make rule.

 

[Finwad32]

And if there weren't a rule about it FSU could pay its players more too. Most sports can't operate without rules governing how $ is spent in the name of creating a more equal playing field. It's unfair if it's unsustainable by all teams in the p5.

There is no doubt there is an advantage. It's the NCAA's job to see if it's influencing things too much and if it's something they want to regulate.

But there is a rule against paying players, so it has no bearing here. It is part of the rules you speak of.

Is it unfair that a small local furniture store has to compete with Raymour & Flanigan?

Why just P5? That's not fair to other schools that compete at this level. If it's not sustainable and you need it, make it sustainable. There are no rules against it no matter how much GT whines.

 

[Finwad32]

Wait - and you're for it. I'd be more inclined towards your position if they had a job that was a legit need filled by competent candidate and an actual hiring process.

If this is the norm, if expect the NCAA to make rule.

Possibly, but, it's not one now and I don't think it's likely to change. And it's been the norm for a long time. Who'd Doug Marrone try to hire as a RB Coach?

It's not students, it's an operation hiring employees they see as necessary.

 

[TheCusian]

But there is a rule against paying players, so it has no bearing here. It is part of the rules you speak of. Is it unfair that a small local furniture store has to compete with Raymour & Flanigan? Why just P5? That's not fair to other schools that compete at this level. If it's not sustainable and you need it, make it sustainable. There are no rules against it no matter how much GT whines.

Other businesses win by how much money the bring in. Sports is won on the field where it needs to be as fair as it possibly can be so people will tune in.

Right on about paying players. Maybe there should be a rule governing support staff ?

I don't care P5, FBS, FCS. See what makes sense and then enforce it.

 

[TheCusian]

Possibly, but, it's not one now and I don't think it's likely to change. And it's been the norm for a long time. Who'd Doug Marrone try to hire as a RB Coach? It's not students, it's an operation hiring employees they see as necessary.

If it's to gain an edge in recruiting, it should be governed by rules.

 

[Finwad32]

If it's to gain an edge in recruiting, it should be governed by rules.

This is so vague, it's literally impossible and illogical. So Oregon should downsize their facilities bc Iowa St's are crap?

Life's not fair man, never will be.

 

[TheCusian]

This is so vague, it's literally impossible and illogical. So Oregon should downsize their facilities bc Iowa St's are crap? Life's not fair man, never will be.

We are arguing over where the line is. I don't know the answer and neither do you. What I'm arguing against is how sure you are that doing nothing to curb support staff and family/HS coach hires is the right one.

Notice I did not say once that things be perfectly fair. I just said more fair, when possible.