Frank Howard

[Brooky03]

Advanced metrics for offense had Howard among the lowest of the low. Not saying that he does not have a high ceiling. We have had point guards that declined to shoot but they could shoot or even take over when appropriate, eg Z. Howard is not there. He is not starting, especially on a team that does not have a scoring center or a steady starting offensive power forward. You do not win unless you outscore the other team.

DC and Roberson could get us 15-20 ppg with pretty efficient field goal percentages. That's plenty of scoring with 2 out of 3 of Lydon, Battle, White on the court at any given time. I don't think Howard played enough last year for the metrics to peg him accurately, so his lack of scoring efficiency is a) not well-established (a lot changes in a year with a new role) b) not necessarily going to be a problem with the guys we'll have on the court for him to pass to.

Howard's the better distributor and should be the better defender... should be. Gillon's the scorer. JB will use whichever fits the lineup we have on the court and team need at whatever point in the game. Gillon could start, but I think we see both players get equal court time.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Offensive capabilities also include the ability to break people down off the dribble and set up teammates. Both of which Gillon excels at. Have you seen him play?

He isn't sitting. Frank was awful in the zone last year, BTW.

I haven't seen gillon play. But do you really think Frank can't break someone down and set up teammates? That's essentially his only skill. I've heard Gillon is super quick which he'll have over Frank, but he's also much shorter. As for the zone, Frank got much better as the year went on. I expect that progression to continue.

As for whether a fifth year transfer was promised a starting role, let me be the first to say I'm quite certain JB won't live up to that promise if Gillon isn't the best option.

Just my opinion.

 

[OttoMets]

Sound logic on your part.
But I doubt JB would do no more than tell Gillon that if he could show he should start he would.
JB tends to favor players he likes and he has said that he likes Frank a lot.

Agree with this, but I think the second line was probably accompanied by a "Wink, wink" when he told Gillon that.

Historically, what you said is absolutely true. Though it's tough for the leopard to change his spots, I understand we're supposed to throw out some of Boeheim's tendencies this year - near the end of the road, he's going all-in for another championship. This might mean favoring the one-year graduate players over favored program guys, and it might mean sacrificing defense for offense for the first time in years (this part could be fun).

Frank is a classic Boeheim guy, though - smart and talented. It's interesting that he's rounding into form at this exact time, because in nearly any other year he'd be a lock to start, given our other returning players.

 

[Cowtown]

Agree with this, but I think the second line was probably accompanied by a "Wink, wink" when he told Gillon that.

Historically, what you said is absolutely true. Though it's tough for the leopard to change his spots, I understand we're supposed to throw out some of Boeheim's tendencies this year - near the end of the road, he's going all-in for another championship. This might mean favoring the one-year graduate players over favored program guys, and it might mean sacrificing defense for offense for the first time in years (this part could be fun).

Frank is a classic Boeheim guy, though - smart and talented. It's interesting that he's rounding into form at this exact time, because in nearly any other year he'd be a lock to start, given our other returning players.

At the end of the day, it's a nice problem to have. You want to play? Fine, then play better than the guy who wants your spot. I may be over-simplifying this, but the coach really only finds out who can play when the season begins. Remember we all thought/hoped Kaleb was going to make a great leap forward last year, and he in fact regressed. And rapidly at that. And no one, repeat no one, saw the evolution of G into the team's primary ball handler. So, in the words of our 43rd president, "Bring 'em on!"

 

[PhatOrange]

whoever makes the least amount of mistakes and plays the best defense will get the nod.

 

[SoBeCuse]

At the end of the day, it's a nice problem to have. You want to play? Fine, then play better than the guy who wants your spot. I may be over-simplifying this, but the coach really only finds out who can play when the season begins. Remember we all thought/hoped Kaleb was going to make a great leap forward last year, and he in fact regressed. And rapidly at that. And no one, repeat no one, saw the evolution of G into the team's primary ball handler. So, in the words of our 43rd president, "Bring 'em on!"

Yeah, I agree with all of this. How the guys practice and how it translates into gametime performance early on will be huge. Hopefully the players buy into however JB says it is going to be regarding starters and minutes played. It is so fantastic to have all these bodies now and the competition in practices will be intense!

JB was brilliant with the maneuver of G to PG. It saved us. I personally believe he knew early on (like by conference play his frosh year) that KJ wasn't going to be able to hack it here and was like, "S*#t, what have I done here" and approached G to prep him that he may be needed to drive the bus and such for the following season. G then started to get to work. It saved us. Just my opinion how that really went down.

 

[dollarbill44]

I'm not sure about this. We'll see how Gillon picks it up but Howard was really poor defensively in there when he played. Now there is only room to improve and he will with another year in the system but I'd be shocked if Gillon came in that much worse than what Frank was even at the end of season. He just refused to close out on shooters, gave up too much dribble penetration, etc. Obviously Frank will be better but Frank didn't know how to play zone as of March. Gillon won't be that far behind, imo.

JB's zone tends to be like Babers' offense in that it usually takes some time to "click" and that only comes with repetition. That's why freshmen at SU tend to get extensive playing time only when there is an extreme lack of depth and there are no alternatives, or if they are special talents, like Carmelo.

It can be a bit of a catch 22 in that you only get better if you play a lot, but you can only play a lot for JB if you are good enough in the zone. It "clicked" last year in March for our freshmen. It's one reason why I'd like to see a deeper rotation all year long, even if we struggle at times.

Does that make sense? It's clear in my head, but...:noidea:

 

[kirbivore]

will he be allowed to shoot?

 

[EastCoast2]

Wanted to address a few themes I've noticed in the Gillon over Howard camp. Not calling anyone out, just stating my amateur opinions.

"Gillon didn't come here to come off the bench."

I think every player who averages 13 ppg in D1 thinks they could start on almost every team. I expect, and hope, Gillon to think he should start. Nobody transfers to a school thinking they aren't good enough to start. Just like every top 50 recruit thinks they're good enough to be a 1-and-done, I hope Gillon has this confidence, but ultimately it's not his decision. It's not like he knew back in April how good Howard would be 6 months later.
​

"It would look bad to not start a 5th year transfer."

Similar to my previous thought, future 5th year transfers will think they're starting no matter what, they'll think they're better than both Gillon and Howard. Also, I don't know the extent of promises that JB makes to players not named Fab/Rak/Coleman. If Howard turns into MCW over this summer (he won't), do you think Gillon still starts?​

"None of us saw G moving to PG."

Not sure about many here, but I thought that was the reason he left Duke and came here. He didn't want to play forward, he wanted to be a guard, and take a swing at playing PG.
​

This is a good discussion, let's keep it going.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Wanted to address a few themes I've noticed in the Gillon over Howard camp. Not calling anyone out, just stating my amateur opinions.

"Gillon didn't come here to come off the bench."

I think every player who averages 13 ppg in D1 thinks they could start on almost every team. I expect, and hope, Gillon to think he should start. Nobody transfers to a school thinking they aren't good enough to start. Just like every top 50 recruit thinks they're good enough to be a 1-and-done, I hope Gillon has this confidence, but ultimately it's not his decision. It's not like he knew back in April how good Howard would be 6 months later.
​

"It would look bad to not start a 5th year transfer."

Similar to my previous thought, future 5th year transfers will think they're starting no matter what, they'll think they're better than both Gillon and Howard. Also, I don't know the extent of promises that JB makes to players not named Fab/Rak/Coleman. If Howard turns into MCW over this summer (he won't), do you think Gillon still starts?​

"None of us saw G moving to PG."

Not sure about many here, but I thought that was the reason he left Duke and came here. He didn't want to play forward, he wanted to be a guard, and take a swing at playing PG.
​

This is a good discussion, let's keep it going.

Good points regarding the first two takes. Certainly ones I have considered and I am really interested in seeing what happens. It's a good problem to have!

On G. 99.9% sure that during one or more of the many pressers en route to the F4; he addressed his move to PG and how he was surprised at it but embraced it when JB asked him. As I mentioned above, I think it was a saavy move by JB foreseeing a big problem then and not having faith in KJ moving forward. Obviously he was right and it saved the team!

 

[Delmar]

It's also fair to wonder if Gillon would have come here as a 5th year senior if he wasn't told he would start.

I think Gillon starts because he is the fifth year guy and it probably looks bad if you don't start your fifth year transfer

JB doesn't care a lick about perception, and doesn't make promises. Play defense and you've got a good chance to start. Let the opposition get off a couple of 3's uncontested and you are sitting on the bench.

 

[NineOneSeven]

JB doesn't care a lick about perception, and doesn't make promises. Play defense and you've got a good chance to start. Let the opposition get off a couple of 3's uncontested and you are sitting on the bench.

Still starting though.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Wanted to address a few themes I've noticed in the Gillon over Howard camp. Not calling anyone out, just stating my amateur opinions.

"Gillon didn't come here to come off the bench."

I think every player who averages 13 ppg in D1 thinks they could start on almost every team. I expect, and hope, Gillon to think he should start. Nobody transfers to a school thinking they aren't good enough to start. Just like every top 50 recruit thinks they're good enough to be a 1-and-done, I hope Gillon has this confidence, but ultimately it's not his decision. It's not like he knew back in April how good Howard would be 6 months later.
​

"It would look bad to not start a 5th year transfer."

Similar to my previous thought, future 5th year transfers will think they're starting no matter what, they'll think they're better than both Gillon and Howard. Also, I don't know the extent of promises that JB makes to players not named Fab/Rak/Coleman. If Howard turns into MCW over this summer (he won't), do you think Gillon still starts?​

"None of us saw G moving to PG."

Not sure about many here, but I thought that was the reason he left Duke and came here. He didn't want to play forward, he wanted to be a guard, and take a swing at playing PG.
​

This is a good discussion, let's keep it going.

The Howard improvement talk reminds me of the KJ talk last fall.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The Howard improvement talk reminds me of the KJ talk last fall.

Ha. Frank looks like he belongs. KJ never did to me. I also had zero faith in him making the leap to his soph season and never understood those who continued to say he was going to be good. Never ever saw a kid struggle so much bringing the ball up the floor, falling down/turning it over on fast breaks, etc.

 

[EastCoast2]

The Howard improvement talk reminds me of the KJ talk last fall.

Difference is Howard showed composure and competence in the biggest games on the biggest national stage at the end of the year. Kaleb was consistently shaky. Also as I mentioned, Howard is still recovering from a serious knee injury two years ago, I really think that played a minor role and stunted his performance as a freshman not being 100%. Not saying he's going to be a lottery pick and NBA ROY but I think his improvement from from freshman to sophomore year will be more like MCW's than Kaleb's. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high, though.

 

[721Comstock]

Difference is Howard showed composure and competence in the biggest games on the biggest national stage at the end of the year. Kaleb was consistently shaky. Also as I mentioned, Howard is still recovering from a serious knee injury two years ago, I really think that played a minor role and stunted his performance as a freshman not being 100%. Not saying he's going to be a lottery pick and NBA ROY but I think his improvement from from freshman to sophomore year will be more like MCW's than Kaleb's. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high, though.

So far, the only things Frank Howard and MCW have in common, are:
being tall guards, lousy shooters, and getting buried on the bench for most of their Frosh seasons.

I like the kid, and of course want to see him do great.
But - it seems like a lot of people are expecting MCW 2.0 from him this season, and it's unlikely to happen.
Especially if he's stuck behind a logjam of other guards this season.

 

[cuseattle]

Difference is Howard showed composure and competence in the biggest games on the biggest national stage at the end of the year. Kaleb was consistently shaky. Also as I mentioned, Howard is still recovering from a serious knee injury two years ago, I really think that played a minor role and stunted his performance as a freshman not being 100%. Not saying he's going to be a lottery pick and NBA ROY but I think his improvement from from freshman to sophomore year will be more like MCW's than Kaleb's. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high, though.

Howard, given minutes, could be an assist monster.

 

[Cusefannotindc]

Howard's role is going to be very lineup dependent if he hasn't improved his ability to score. As of right now you can't have a lineup with Chukwu, Roberson and Howard, you would only have two legit scoring threats on the floor. Coleman doesn't provide much more of a threat to score either.

Howard's best role on the team is going to be as point for a small ball line up with Lydon as center. But otherwise you need at three scoring threats on the floor to play Howard.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Howard's role is going to be very lineup dependent if he hasn't improved his ability to score. As of right now you can't have a lineup with Chukwu, Roberson and Howard, you would only have two legit scoring threats on the floor. Coleman doesn't provide much more of a threat to score either.

Howard's best role on the team is going to be as point for a small ball line up with Lydon as center. But otherwise you need at three scoring threats on the floor to play Howard.

Exactly. I'm not worried about Howard's playmaking and passing but if he can't score again then, like you say, you can't play him with those other guys.

 

[jordoo]

This thread reminds me of the discussions about Lydon coming off the bench while Roberson and Coleman start. Imagine Howard, Coleman, Roberson on the court to start the game. Howard is going to be improved and I think he's a good D1 talent who will have a very nice career. We only have 3 guards so he'll get plenty of minutes off the bench. I don't see White sneaking in more than 3-4min at the guard spot so Howard will be a big part of the rotation.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Howard's role is going to be very lineup dependent if he hasn't improved his ability to score. As of right now you can't have a lineup with Chukwu, Roberson and Howard, you would only have two legit scoring threats on the floor. Coleman doesn't provide much more of a threat to score either.

Howard's best role on the team is going to be as point for a small ball line up with Lydon as center. But otherwise you need at three scoring threats on the floor to play Howard.

Well said here. Lack of scoring will definitely be a concern without other shooters on the floor.

 

[RF2044]

I haven't seen gillon play. But do you really think Frank can't break someone down and set up teammates? That's essentially his only skill. I've heard Gillon is super quick which he'll have over Frank, but he's also much shorter. As for the zone, Frank got much better as the year went on. I expect that progression to continue.

As for whether a fifth year transfer was promised a starting role, let me be the first to say I'm quite certain JB won't live up to that promise if Gillon isn't the best option.

Just my opinion.

You know that you are one of the posters who's opinion I respect most in terms of player evaluation on this board--don't need to qualify that any further.

That said, no--I don't think that Howard can do some of the things Gillon can do with the ball. Can Frank break somebody down? Absolutely. And he ended up showing tremendous court vision for a guy who really hadn't been a full time, born-and-bred point guard up to last year. He's going to be a VERY important player for us over the course of the next three years, and he was my personal favorite recruit from the class of 2016.

But Gillon has an unbelievable handle, and is ultra-quick. Remember when teams always flash that faux switch with centers up top, when our PGs would bring the ball back out? Gillon splits that defender [and there were numerous examples of him making teams pay for making that switch defensively]. When he's in the lane, he is deadly from mid range, he finishes with EITHER HAND through contact, and also sets up guys beautifully on the baseline.

I'm totally not surprised that you haven't seen him, and I'll be really interested in hearing your perspective when you do. I've seen a lot of junk analysis on Gillon, with some posters expressing the truism that since he's played at a mid-major, we should expect his production to go down. I call BS on that. Sure, he might not have to be a one man band scorer like he was called upon to do at CSU, but I think--with his skill set--that he'll THRIVE playing on a talented team.

When I watched his clips, I was shocked he was at CSU. There are times when you watch players from different levels and you see things that you know they wouldn't be able to get away with playing against top teams. I see a lot of slow passes, etc. in Ivy League games, for example. Doesn't mean that those kids can't play--just that they probably wouldn't be nearly as effective playing top notch P5 competition. When I watch Gillon, I'm not excited about his highlight reel -- BFD, they are highlights. But what I AM excited about is the translatable skill set that extrapolates very well to the upper echelon P5 level of play. Things such as:

• His deep shooting range and effortless stroke out to 25+ feet
• His ability to pull up and hit threes smoothly
• His handle in the open floor
• His ability to finish at the tin with either hand
• His ability to pull up in the lane and hit jump shots if nobody rotates over to cut off his penetration
• How easily he scores even after absorbing contact -- finishing is an important skill
• How his quickness / handle enable him to shirk off pressure and get the team upcourt into attack mode quickly
• How he sets up teammates off penetrations for easy baseline scores / lobs

Translatable skills. Now, there is some downside on paper, too. He played at CSU, so he didn't face ACC caliber teams every night, so I understand some of the skepticism. He's also about six-feet tall, and only about 170 pounds, he doesn't have great length for the zone [doesn't mean that he CAN'T be a decent defender in zone, just that on paper it is cause for concern].

But I think his offensive capabilities--many of which are described above--are going to prove to be the staw that helps stir the drink on what is shaping up as a loaded squad. One more thing: kid shot just under 40% for his first two years of college ball, before dropping down to about 33% last year on a team where he had to do too much offensively due to them not having other scorers. On a team with offensive balance? He could be another knock down shooter opposite Lydon / White. Very excited about what this kid brings to the table. This is a COMPLETELY different situation than Mullins, IMO.

Looking forward to hearing your impressions after you've watched clips, or a CSU game from last year.

 

[iommi]

Epic post above, RF2044, thanks!

 

[DBCooper]

Howard's role is going to be very lineup dependent if he hasn't improved his ability to score. As of right now you can't have a lineup with Chukwu, Roberson and Howard, you would only have two legit scoring threats on the floor. Coleman doesn't provide much more of a threat to score either.

Howard's best role on the team is going to be as point for a small ball line up with Lydon as center. But otherwise you need at three scoring threats on the floor to play Howard.

At the very least, Chukwu, Roberson and Howard will be on the floor together in certain situations, along with Lydon and Battle, when JB wants to use the full court press.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I think Frank starts myself but I don't know how important that is. I think their minutes will be close. Frank is taller and has been in our system and I thought really improved over last season. Toward the he had made big improvements in my opinion. If he can become an ok outside shooter with his passing and court vision he will be good to go. Gillon is more athletic and will play as well.