I think that it is time for a coach that openly displays love and care for our players.

[PhatOrange]

That's only a part of it, though.

Since we've only been able to have 2 coaches out at a time, why is it GMAC and Red instead of Hop and Red? Where is JB?

Every top program loses kids early.

Is this really true?

Hard to build a roster when you have limited scholarships.

 

[jncuse]

JB follows the tough love model, which is more of an old school thing. It doesn't mean he doesn't care for the guys or want them to do well on a personal level. It's just a different way to get there, and as times change athletes may have a preference to a more softer appoach in terms of receiving feedback for on the court play, even if they are disciplined by being benched.

 

[cuseinseattle]

That was an AAU event, no? But, I don't think he has been to see a recruit play in his normal environment/season in quite some time.

Final 4s certainly mean something to me and are defining moments for a program or coach's legacy and hierarchy. They just don't mean that much to these stud recruits, imo.

This was from an AAU event. I believe he went to Putnam with an assistant not long after the Green thing to see Diallo and Ayala play. This is just off the top of my head. I will agree that he doesn't hit the road enough but he has gone to high school games in the last 4 years. I will defer to Dean Francis though and perhaps I am wrong.

 

[Alsacs]

I'm not sure its even fair to call BJ and Obokoh misses.

If not for the sanctions I think BJ would be here starting at small forward and probably playing pretty well.

Obokoh was a reach. We take those guys at pf/c all of the time. Historically we have a list of these guys that is much longer than the list of guys that have worked out at the position. (Obokoh, Dashonte Riley, Sean Williams, Brennan-McBride, Matt Gorman, Greg Davis, Billy Celuck, Ethan Cole). Some work out (Keita, McNeil, Ovcina, Reafsnyder). Obviously I'm not including guys that came in reasonably polished and able to contribute.

If you aren't a selector school, it's the way recruiting that position works. You can't teach height, there are fewer 6-10 plus guys available, so you stretch and take guys to see if they will develop. I think these guys are also more difficult to project because of how awkward most 6-10 to 7-0 guys are until they get used to their size (if they get used to it).

Johnson wasn't a bust. We pushed him out because of the sanctions. JB has wanted to start the penalties last year and didn't want to lose any of last year's class.
Chino was a bust on the court . He contributed next to nothing for a team that had no depth last year and we were below 11 scholarships and the staff didn't fight to keep him here.
The staff got the 11th scholarship back in November 2015 and we still are fighting to have 11 scholarship athletes next year.
Our staff has dropped the ball on roster management.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Did they just leave him there and someone took this photo just before the lights were shutoff. There is at least 8 empty chairs by him

It was at the very end of the day and right before the last game if I remember right. There was kid he wanted to watch and according to Boeheim all of the head coaches had gone home. It was him and a few assistants and he took a quick nap cause he was tired.

 

[cuseinseattle]

JB follows the tough love model, which is more of an old school thing. It doesn't mean he doesn't care for the guys or want them to do well on a personal level. It's just a different way to get there, and as times change athletes may have a preference to a more softer appoach in terms of receiving feedback for on the court play, even if they are disciplined by being benched.

I have never heard one former player say they don't feel Boeheim cares about them.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

There are no juniors or seniors because they went pro.

Zero PG commits because of sanctions preventing us from over recruiting and Kaleb/Howard were supposed to be the stop gap while we went all in on Quade and lost.

Or were forced to transfer

 

[cuseinseattle]

Please, hear me out. It hit me tonight as I, sadly ,watched ole' Roy being honored after the game. He was overcome with emotion and his players were genuinely having fun with him and hugging him. They care for him as he cares for them. They play hard for him to honor, not only the school , but the person. I cant see the players doing that with JB. not now, not in the past.

Not every coach is warm and fuzzy and yes they get results, but times are changing. We arent in the 80s anymore where talent overfloweth from the cup and the next great player is lined up at the door. These kids want to have a shot at getting to the league and playing for a coach they respect and they like. We look at a coach like Tom Crean and wonder how the hell he is getting talented kids when we are not. then you watch his interactions and he falls into the category of coaches that connect well and genuinely care about the welfare of their players.

This in my opinion is why we are whiffing on big time recruits and why the program is in decline. Can MH be that guy? I think he can but only time will tell. One thing is for sure. The end is here for JB and the program is in very uncharted territory. Color me concerned as hell.

Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts, Id love to hear yours as well.

Honestly where did you get this from. Watching his pressers and thinking he criticizes players too much? Every all access they do that shows him in practice he is calm for a coach and joking with kids. I have never heard a former player say they feel like Boeheim doesn't care about them. I feel like we have more players come back and watch the team during tourney runs and just come around in general than almost any other program. Every time Boeheim hits a new wins mark they are multiple players who come back.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Every year since 2012/2013 we have had a player in a class that left early. our recruiting has been hurt by the sanctions more than anything. Only two coaches on the road at any one time is just death. Not to mention the loss of ships. We have actually done better than we should have when you consider the number of kids that we had that left earlier than we thought they would. The goal of the sanctions is to cripple a program. It has really hurt ours. The final four was a shot in the gut of the NCAA

All true... but we brought it on ourselves. You can certainly argue witchhunt and the extent of the penalties given what was uncovered, but the point is something was uncovered (and yes I know, you can probably find something at any school dealing with 18-22 year olds).

 

[PhatOrange]

Or were forced to transfer

thats the urban legend.

 

[pfister1]

That's only a part of it, though.

Since we've only been able to have 2 coaches out at a time, why is it GMAC and Red instead of Hop and Red? Where is JB?

Every top program loses kids early. Instead of replacing them, all we hear about is how Tyler Ennis left early 3 years ago and destroyed the program. Instead of actively going out and filling our holes and going after multiple kids, our program put all their eggs in the Kaleb Joseph basket and haven't brought in a PG since (FH is not a PG, IMO), and then put all our eggs in the Quade Green basket. You can't blame that on kids leaving early multiple years ago. That's just bad roster building.

I think the lost scholarships hasn't been a huge deal. Maybe it squeezed us out of Huerter, but other than that, we haven't filled our allotment as it is.

Other than last March, this program has been entrenched in the bottom half (third?) of the ACC for 3 years now. Can't blame the sanctions and Tyler Ennis for that.

First, there is a significant difference between going all-in on a guy who is a signed recruit ie. Kaleb Joseph and going all in on a target ie. Quade Green. The two shouldn't really be spoken about in the same context.

Second, the scholarship limits are a HUGE deal. You are looking back and suggesting we didn't use all that we had available so it didn't effect us. The number available to us wasn't static as we went through the process (hearings, sanctions and appeal). You don't think it effected us that we didn't have clarity around how many scholarships we would even have available to use? JB was trying to plan his roster, guessing at how many scholarships he was ultimately going to have available. You don't remember the discussions around the Thomas Bryant situation where we had endless hours of debate over whether we had a ship available to give him if he wanted to come or the debate around who we might have to cut loose to make room for him. You remember BJ Johnson who is now the 6th leading scorer/ 10th leading reboundr in the A-10, and who isn't here because of the scholarship crunch.

And the after the fact roster management critique game that we play here is simple when done looking backwards. It is exceptionally complex when you have to deal with it in advance not knowing (i) whether guys who are on your roster will stay, (ii) whether guys who are on your roster will develop or sh$t the bed, (iii) whether you'll have to deal with injuries and (iv) who you will land from year to year. Add to that a period of uncertainty around how many guys you are even allowed to have and it is a nightmare. Remember most of recruiting isn't like recruiting grad transfers where they first become available within sixth months of the start of the season you are recruiting them for and when you already know what your roster needs are. Most of recruiting requires early and sustained involvement with kids over a long period of time. If one moment you don't really have PT time available and then all of a sudden you do, it doesn't mean you can automatically fill it with someone worth bringing in.

Having quality four year guys like BJ would have been at SF or Gbinije or Jardine were at PG is very important to our program. Our ability to have these kinds of guys was diminished by the sanctions and then magnified by early departures, and talent evaluation misses.

 

[retro44]

Is this really true?

Hard to build a roster when you have limited scholarships.

Phat there has been many years where JB still had offers on the table and is known for using very shallow bench.The recruiting is off though.

Maybe HOP is also forbidden to recruit during this time,afterall he was brought in before the committee along with JB.

 

[Alsacs]

thats the urban legend.

Do the math.
We lost 3 scholarships for 2015-16.
We had 4 kid recruiting class for 2015-16 (Lydon,Richardson,Howard, Diagne)
We had Gbinije, Cooney, Roberson, Joseph, Coleman, Chino, Johnson, Patterson, and we took a transfer from PC in Chukwu.
That is 12 scholarships used. The NCAA told us we had 10 to use or the penalties would be pushed back one year.
Then Patterson and Johnson decided to transfer.
I mean it's never been publicly said but cmon we told those kids to look elsewhere and they did.

 

[two3zone]

thats the urban legend.

Buss, BJ, KJ, and Chin all left on their own? Come on. At least two were pushed out.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Did they just leave him there and someone took this photo just before the lights were shutoff. There is at least 8 empty chairs by him

Maybe JB farts in his sleep?

 

[Jasoncuse]

First, there is a significant difference between going all-in on a guy who is a signed recruit ie. Kaleb Joseph and going all in on a target ie. Quade Green. The two shouldn't really be spoken about in the same context.

All in on KJ, as in not having anything lined up after year 1 or 2. He was the PG recruit, fine, but there hasn't been anything done since except adding a combo in FH. All in on QG, as in not recruiting anyone else. Obviously different situations, but both were the only options in their situation.

Second, the scholarship limits are a HUGE deal. You are looking back and suggesting we didn't use all that we had available so it didn't effect us. The number available to us wasn't static as we went through the process (hearings, sanctions and appeal). You don't think it effected us that we didn't have clarity around how many scholarships we would even have available to use? JB was trying to plan his roster, guessing at how many scholarships he was ultimately going to have available. You don't remember the discussions around the Thomas Bryant situation where we had endless hours of debate over whether we had a ship available to give him if he wanted to come or the debate around who we might have to cut loose to make room for him. You remember BJ Johnson who is now the 6th leading scorer/ 10th leading reboundr in the A-10, and who isn't here because of the scholarship crunch.

Obviously, they've had some impact, but I disagree that they were overwhelming and such a monster problem. The way the program handled those reductions seems to be the biggest problem. We've always had open scholies and still have open scholies even with the reduction. It was a situation that could have been overcome.
Bryant didn't come because he wanted out of mom's backyard. And didn't BJ leave because we were bringing in Malachi and his family wanted him to take a step back, redshirt and gets stronger/better? BJ's dad said it had nothing to do with sanctions. We would've had a spot for him, since we added Pascal in the summer of 2015, 3 months after BJ announced his move. Either way, I dont' think either of those were a direct result of the crunch. I may be off, though.

Remember most of recruiting isn't like recruiting grad transfers where they first become available within sixth months of the start of the season you are recruiting them for and when you already know what your roster needs are. Most of recruiting requires early and sustained involvement with kids over a long period of time. If one moment you don't really have PT time available and then all of a sudden you do, it doesn't mean you can automatically fill it with someone worth bringing in.
Having quality four year guys like BJ would have been at SF or Gbinije or Jardine were at PG is very important to our program. Our ability to have these kinds of guys was diminished by the sanctions and then magnified by early departures, and talent evaluation misses.

That's exactly the point. This program hasn't been out in front of the recruiting game. From all indications, the staff hasn't worked their tails off fighting to land kids, at least compared to peers and compared to what we obviously needed in this transition time. Instead, we're left going after grad xfers because the long relationships weren't there. We did the Quade thing, but what other lengthy relationships have been built in that class? Why not more guard recruiting? Where will we find scorers? We're left back in the grad transfer market, and may really be in trouble for next year depending on Lydon/Battle.

Our biggest issues, IMO, have been the limited recruiting scope/plan and simply whiffing on way too many kids. Yes, we usually have the G's, Scoops, Triches, etc, but we had the Kaleb, Obokoh and Patterson's all at once. You can't swing and miss on that many all at once, and then fail to adequately replace others.

 

[cuseinseattle]

All in on KJ, as in not having anything lined up after year 1 or 2. He was the PG recruit, fine, but there hasn't been anything done since except adding a combo in FH. All in on QG, as in not recruiting anyone else. Obviously different situations, but both were the only options in their situation.



Obviously, they've had some impact, but I disagree that they were overwhelming and such a monster problem. The way the program handled those reductions seems to be the biggest problem. We've always had open scholies and still have open scholies even with the reduction. It was a situation that could have been overcome.
Bryant didn't come because he wanted out of mom's backyard. And didn't BJ leave because we were bringing in Malachi and his family wanted him to take a step back, redshirt and gets stronger/better? BJ's dad said it had nothing to do with sanctions. We would've had a spot for him, since we added Pascal in the summer of 2015, 3 months after BJ announced his move. Either way, I dont' think either of those were a direct result of the crunch. I may be off, though.



That's exactly the point. This program hasn't been out in front of the recruiting game. From all indications, the staff hasn't worked their tails off fighting to land kids, at least compared to peers and compared to what we obviously needed in this transition time. Instead, we're left going after grad xfers because the long relationships weren't there. We did the Quade thing, but what other lengthy relationships have been built in that class? Why not more guard recruiting? Where will we find scorers? We're left back in the grad transfer market, and may really be in trouble for next year depending on Lydon/Battle.

Our biggest issues, IMO, have been the limited recruiting scope/plan and simply whiffing on way too many kids. Yes, we usually have the G's, Scoops, Triches, etc, but we had the Kaleb, Obokoh and Patterson's all at once. You can't swing and miss on that many all at once, and then fail to adequately replace others.

When you say we are being outworked by our "peers" who do you seeing being our peers? I don't think we are being outworked. We can only have so many people out there at a time due to the NCAA (those bastards).

 

[Ward]

When you say we are being outworked by our "peers" who do you seeing being our peers? I don't think we are being outworked. We can only have so many people out there at a time due to the NCAA (those bastards).

I think that's a great question. We had a great run of ~5 years and now are in a dip. I personally see our peers as Arizona, Louisville, Michigan State, Villanova, UConn, etc. off the top of my head. What about you?

 

[Zepharus]

I have never heard one former player say they don't feel Boeheim cares about them.

Go back and listen to the Etan Thomas podcast in December. They had a number of former players on. Listening to them talk about JB was eye opening for me. Here is a quote, original credit goes to Cuseinseattle for posting. Give it a listen. Tough love is different that indifference. These millennials want to feel special. Adapt or die.

WPFW - The Collision: Sports and Politics by Etan Thomas & Dave Zirin on iTunes

"The other Boeheim comment was from Griff I think. Thomas said that Boeheim always let him do his activism stuff and never tried to control him or anything and he gives him a lot of credit for not controlling his players off the court and treating them like adults. Then Griff says, "Man if you produce on the court and go to class and do good Boeheim don't care about anything else." Thomas then says, "True, no that's true. I was trying to say it a little nicer than that."

 

[cuseinseattle]

Go back and listen to the Etan Thomas podcast in December. They had a number of former players on. Listening to them talk about JB was eye opening for me. Here is a quote, original credit goes to Cuseinseattle for posting. Give it a listen. Tough love is different that indifference. These millennials want to feel special. Adapt or die.

WPFW - The Collision: Sports and Politics by Etan Thomas & Dave Zirin on iTunes

"The other Boeheim comment was from Griff I think. Thomas said that Boeheim always let him do his activism stuff and never tried to control him or anything and he gives him a lot of credit for not controlling his players off the court and treating them like adults. Then Griff says, "Man if you produce on the court and go to class and do good Boeheim don't care about anything else." Thomas then says, "True, no that's true. I was trying to say it a little nicer than that."

I actually was the one that posted this. It was not a criticism it was a complement that he doesn't try and micro manage his players off the court. He also talked about Indiana and being in Maui.

 

[Zepharus]

I actually was the one that posted this. It was not a criticism it was a complement that he doesn't try and micro manage his players off the court. He also talked about Indiana and being in Maui.

fyi I gave you credit. i also think if you really listen to the parts they talk about JB is telling. Almost like they dont really take him seriously. If the former players elude to this and we see the current players acting it out, isnt it a duck?

 

[cuseinseattle]

I think that's a great question. We had a great run of ~5 years and now are in a dip. I personally see our peers as Arizona, Louisville, Michigan State, Villanova, UConn, etc. off the top of my head. What about you?

He brought up Quade who went to UK. I think part of my problem is that people say peers and then bring up Duke, UK, KU and UNC. I would agree regarding Mich St, Zona, Ville and Nova. Yukon is actually a mid major and I don't see us as one.

 

[cuseinseattle]

fyi I gave you credit. i also think if you really listen to the parts they talk about JB is telling. Almost like they dont really take him seriously. If the former players elude to this and we see the current players acting it out, isnt it a duck?

I didn't notice you giving me credit until now sorry about that. I have heard Boeheim say that he doesn't believe in talking to the kids as much about their personal lives and likes his assistants to play that role since they are much closer to these kids in age. You could argue that approach should change but I don't think it's fair to say he doesn't care about the kids that play for him or that they think he doesn't care.

 

[721Comstock]

Please, hear me out. It hit me tonight as I, sadly ,watched ole' Roy being honored after the game. He was overcome with emotion and his players were genuinely having fun with him and hugging him. They care for him as he cares for them. They play hard for him to honor, not only the school , but the person. I cant see the players doing that with JB. not now, not in the past.

Not every coach is warm and fuzzy and yes they get results, but times are changing. We arent in the 80s anymore where talent overfloweth from the cup and the next great player is lined up at the door. These kids want to have a shot at getting to the league and playing for a coach they respect and they like. We look at a coach like Tom Crean and wonder how the hell he is getting talented kids when we are not. then you watch his interactions and he falls into the category of coaches that connect well and genuinely care about the welfare of their players.

This in my opinion is why we are whiffing on big time recruits and why the program is in decline. Can MH be that guy? I think he can but only time will tell. One thing is for sure. The end is here for JB and the program is in very uncharted territory. Color me concerned as hell.

Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts, Id love to hear yours as well.

So, you're looking for a coach to do some of this?

Wrong forum. Sorry.

 

[Toga]

People believe everything they read on the internet. :noidea:

If it comes from Francis then I believe it.