Kansas is an example why the college basketball regular season doesn't really matter

[ROCuse]

Which is dumb, since it's a single elimination tournament and that lends itself to weirdness.

Isn't that what we love about it?

 

[two3zone]

Syracuse basketball loves drama. Sadly it is a little Kardashian esque.

2012 was the worst. Our fanbase was miserable during a 30-1 regular season. I tend to be fair when things are good I am uber positive but when I am frustrated I let it been known. That 2012 season drove me nuts with our fans complaining about close wins.

We couldn't appreciate 30-1.

That was one of my favorite seasons of all time, beginning to end. I still personally believe that was our greatest team.

 

[DownTheField]

Post Season is all that matters.

Seriously. That's it.

Do well in the regular season so you can position yourself, as a program, to accumulate Sweet 16's, Final 4's and National Championship's.

So you agree with the UConn maniacs that UConn/Calhoun are far superior to SU/Boeheim?

 

[two3zone]

Oh I completely agree. And even as a fan you tend to remember Final Four teams much more fondly. Just getting to the Final Four is an accomplishment in itself.

I agree with this most seasons. The 2012 team is mentioned quite a bit right now but to be quite honest I enjoyed that year far more than the MCW final four year.

It was awesome to watch us just destroy team after team after team. I know the Fab stuff etc etc but as far as we got with the 2013 it was just such an up and down year.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The don't play in a real conference. So people are tricked by their "success" every year. Sorry but any team that wins 12 years in a row is more an indictment of the conference than a measure of success. In the last 12 seasons the B12 has had only three Final Four teams. Is it any wonder Kansas wins every year?

The three years before those 12 seasons the B12 put 5 teams in the Final Four. That was great. However the 13 years before that they had only 3 teams in the Final Four. So over the past 28 seasons the conference has had 11 Final Four teams. Of those 6 were Kansas. Oklahoma and Okie State have each made two Final Fours in the last 28 years and Texas once. In fairness WV has made a Final Four as a member of the Big East. If Oklahoma fails to win the title this year that will make only ONE title in the last 28 years for the conference.

The B1G and P12 have similar problems. The B1G has only ONE title in the last 27 years! But they at least get teams to the Final Four having 20 teams over that span. Also they now have Maryland who has 2 FFs and a national title over that time period. The P12 has had only FIVE Final Four teams the last 19 years and 0.0 titles. They have ZERO Final Four teams in the last 8 years! Utah is now in the conference but their last Final Four was in 1998.

Even the SEC is poor outside their top 2 programs (Kentucky & Florida). Over the last 20 seasons the other teams have one Final Four and zero in the last 10 years.

Meanwhile the ACC has had 4 schools make it in the last 15 seasons. In addition Louisville has made it as a Big East team. Schools currently in the ACC have won 4 of the last 7 National titles and could win this year as well.

Really until things change the ACC deserves 10 teams every year (9 this year because of Louisville). Give ACC teams a seed on each line:

1. UNC
2. UVA
3. None (Louisville)
4. Miami
5. Duke
6. ND
7. Pitt
8. SU
9. VA Tech
10. GA Tech

If other conferences want to complain tell them to start winning games.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Isn't that what we love about it?

For sure. But if you're putting huge weight on the results of a single elimination tournament, odds are you're going to be disappointed.

 

[longislandcuse]

So you agree with the UConn maniacs that UConn/Calhoun are far superior to SU/Boeheim?

I don't personally but the average person looking at resumes would.

I'm also sick of everyone bringing everything back to UConn. Seriously, . They're in the AAC now. It's like trying to talk to me about Oklahoma A&M when they were coached by Henry Iba. It's irrelevant.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I thought 2012 validated its regular season. They made the Elite 8 and lost to a 2 seed that been a top 5 team most of the year in Ohio State in an awfully officiated game.

I think those 2 teams split 10 games if they played that many times.

2012 was not vulnerable at all. Even without Melo that team had
Gs- Scoop/Triche/Waiter/MCW
Fs- Joseph/Fair/Southerland
Cs- Christmas/Keita

that 9 man squad makes the Final Four A LOT. The Elite Eight wasn't really underachieving. When you get to the Elite 8 its a coin flip.

I think people were happy given the circumstances with the 2012 team. I don't remember a lot of complaining. 2014 on the other hand was a different story. That team started 25-0 but was a flawed team that was pulling games out of their ass. It was no surprise that we lost 5 of the next 7 games and failed to make the S16.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Bill Self already validated himself as good coach with the work he did with Illinois, Tulsa, and Oral Roberts.

And I don't give a f#ck how weak the 12 is. A run of ref season titles is impressive no matter what.

 

[Alsacs]

Big Ten has been close a lot of times since 2000. With a bunch of different schools
Lost Championship game
Indiana 2002
Illinois 2005
Ohio State 2007
Michigan State 2009
Michigan 2013
Wisconsin 2015.

SEC has been a 2 team conference Florida and Kentucky
Pac-12 has been nothing since UCLA. Arizona has 3 Elite 8's though.
Big East had Syracuse/UConn/Louisville and Georgetown/Villanova National Semifinalists
Big XII no one but Kansas in title game but Oklahoma/Oklahoma State/Texas National Semifinalists

ACC has had Georgia Tech/Duke/North Carolina/Maryland in Championship game.

ACC and Big Ten have dominated as a conference. The Big Ten has ZERO titles though while the ACC has 6 of the last 15 and is guaranteed a shot at its 7th.

Titles since 2000
ACC-6 2001, 2010, 2015 Duke, 2002 Maryland, 2005, 2009 North Carolina
Old Big East-4 2003 Syracuse, 2004, 2011, UConn, 2013 Louisville
SEC-3 2006, 2007 Florida, 2012 Kentucky
Big XII-1 2008 Kansas
Big Ten-1 2000 Michigan State
American- 2014 UConn

 

[CorduroyG]

Self deserves to take some heat. You have to compare kansas to other blue bloods like kentucky carolina and duke. Im pretty sure those 3 teams have more titles and final 4s since self took over.

And remember self was extremely fortunate to get his 1 title, memphis had that game in the bag and blew it.

 

[Cuseregular]

I mean they have been super successful and that fanbase should appreciate Bill Self.
385-83 in 13 years.
12 regular season Big XII titles
7 Big XII tournament titles
1 National Title
2 Final Fours
Self has had Kansas as a 4 seed or better EVERY year.
2004- 4 seed Elite 8
2005- 3 seed first round flameout
2006- 4 seed first round flameout
2007- 1 seed Elite 8
2008- 1 seed NC
2009- 3 seed Sweet 16
2010- 1 seed second round loss to 9 seed
2011- 1 seed Elite 8 lost to 11 seed VCU
2012- 2 seed Final Four lost NC game
2013- 1 seed Sweet 16
2014- 2 seed second round loss to 10 seed
2015- 2 seed second round loss to 7 seed
2016- 1 seed Elite 8.

This kinda of success is unbelievable but when you look at it the regular season.
UConn has missed the NCAA tournament 4 times during this stretch and has 3 NCs.
Syracuse has missed the NCAA tournament 3 times during this stretch and has as many Final Fours.
Duke and UNC have 2 titles during this stretch.

Kansas fans must be frustrated by the tournament but their regular season success is amazing.

What is better Post season runs or dominant regular seasons?

Oh I don't know, it matters somewhat as to seeding, etc. in the big dance, it matters to us fans, the school and the players to make some history playing your old and in our case new rivals, so it matters ultimately.

But what is an utter and complete waste of time in most cases are the conference tourneys now. That was proven this year more than any (though this may become modified somewhat in my head when the ACC tourney comes to NYC and ultimately MSG as I enjoy another excuse to waste some time and money hanging with my SU friends and family down there watching the waste of time). Thank God for the real tourney.

 

[Marsh01]

Self is a great coach but he has had some What losses for sure. Northern Iowa, VCU, Bucknell are a few that come to mind.

They just need to play better. I mean its that simple. Izzo never has a problem when he enters the tourney as a 6-7 seed most years. I know he got bit in the butt this year but that happens to every program.

 

[Knicks411]

Self deserves to take some heat. You have to compare kansas to other blue bloods like kentucky carolina and duke. Im pretty sure those 3 teams have more titles and final 4s since self took over.

And remember self was extremely fortunate to get his 1 title, memphis had that game in the bag and blew it.

That is true, but that is part of the deal; you have to keep giving yourselves chances in the dance and eventually it's going to go your way.

Since he took over, he's got 2 FF and 1 title. Duke has 2 titles and 3 FF, UNC has 2 titles (and counting) and 4 FF, and Kentucky has 1 title and 4 FF. So yes, he's definitely at least a little behind those schools.

 

[orangenirvana]

That game where Ennis gutted Pitt with a dagger three had me as happy as our Gonzaga win. The OT Duke game in the dome was as big of a moment in my mind. The game where JT2 got ejected from the dome: same thing.

That's interesting. I sort of wish I felt the same way, but I don't. The regular season is nothing but a means to an end. Ennis' buzzer beater was fun but it didn't generate close to the thrill and sense of satisfaction as watching this team win a Tournament game.

Although this year's regular was more live or die simply because we were so close to the edge of the bubble all season long.

 

[orangenirvana]

In 2012, we EXPECTED to win it all.

2012 was not vulnerable at all. Even without Melo that team had
Gs- Scoop/Triche/Waiter/MCW
Fs- Joseph/Fair/Southerland
Cs- Christmas/Keita

that 9 man squad makes the Final Four A LOT. The Elite Eight wasn't really underachieving. When you get to the Elite 8 its a coin flip.

I think you're both underestimating the value Fab Melo provided on that 2011-12 team. Once he was declared out, I never expected to win it all. The sophomore Rak Christmas that season was not even close to the senior Rak Christmas we saw two seasons later.

We saw how important Fabricio was to that SU team when we nearly lost to a 16 seed in the first round.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I think you're both underestimating the value Fab Melo provided on that 2011-12 team. Once he was declared out, I never expected to win it all. The sophomore Rak Christmas that season was not even close to the senior Rak Christmas we saw two seasons later.

We saw how important Fabricio was to that SU team when we nearly lost to a 16 seed in the first round.

The refs from the OSU game get all the attention, but I thought we got some fortunate calls vs Asheville.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Big Ten has been close a lot of times since 2000. With a bunch of different schools
Lost Championship game
Indiana 2002
Illinois 2005
Ohio State 2007
Michigan State 2009
Michigan 2013
Wisconsin 2015.

SEC has been a 2 team conference Florida and Kentucky
Pac-12 has been nothing since UCLA. Arizona has 3 Elite 8's though.
Big East had Syracuse/UConn/Louisville and Georgetown/Villanova National Semifinalists
Big XII no one but Kansas in title game but Oklahoma/Oklahoma State/Texas National Semifinalists

ACC has had Georgia Tech/Duke/North Carolina/Maryland in Championship game.

ACC and Big Ten have dominated as a conference. The Big Ten has ZERO titles though while the ACC has 6 of the last 15 and is guaranteed a shot at its 7th.

Titles since 2000
ACC-6 2001, 2010, 2015 Duke, 2002 Maryland, 2005, 2009 North Carolina
Old Big East-4 2003 Syracuse, 2004, 2011, UConn, 2013 Louisville
SEC-3 2006, 2007 Florida, 2012 Kentucky
Big XII-1 2008 Kansas
Big Ten-1 2000 Michigan State
American- 2014 UConn

Since the NCAAT went to 64 teams

Championships by current schools:

ACC 11 (four schools)
SEC 6 (three schools)
B1G 4 (four schools)
AAC 4 (one school)
P12 2 (two schools)
B12 2 (one school)
Big East 1
MWC 1

Final Fours by current schools:

ACC 33 (5 schools)
B1G 25 (8 schools)
SEC 19 (5 schools)
B12 15 (5 schools)
Big East 11 (6 schools)
P12 10 (4 schools)
AAC 8 (3 schools)
MWC 3 (1 school)
A10 3 (3 schools)
MVC 1

That is pretty impressive that 8 of the 14 B1G schools have made a Final Four in the last 32 years. The current schools in the Big East have had just as much success as the P12 and nearly as much as the B12.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The regular season and conference standings are the Meal, and true measure of performance. The tournament is dessert — a sweet finish, and maybe it can make up for a bad meal, but it's sometimes a lark, and unless you reach the final four, it's too easily forgotten.

I was going to ask a similar question before we beat Virginia:
Would you rather finish Top 3 in the ACC or reach the Great 8, but go no further?
I think I'd take Top 3.

 

[two3zone]

That's interesting. I sort of wish I felt the same way, but I don't. The regular season is nothing but a means to an end. Ennis' buzzer beater was fun but it didn't generate close to the thrill and sense of satisfaction as watching this team win a Tournament game.

Although this year's regular was more live or die simply because we were so close to the edge of the bubble all season long.

The shot when it happened I don't think I've ever acted the way I have in public, hugging total strangers etc etc, mind you I was drunk. That said it wore off quickly and to be honest the rest of that season makes it as if it never happened to me.

What these kids are doing now will forever live in Syracuse lore for an eternity. There is nothing else anybody could ever ask them above what they've done.

 

[QUSE]

After this year I won't care nearly as much about regular season as I did before as long as we're not on the bubble. This mentality started after the 2013 final four run, and this year just solidified it. Post season trophies and banners are what matter. Not to mention it also makes life easier.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

It is interesting that over the last 50 seasons, teams that are currently in the P5 have won 42 titles. The non P5 teams that have won are: Marquette, Georgetown, Nova, UNLV, and UConn. Three of those schools will never make it into the P5. UNLV will have a hard time getting in. UConn really is the last basketball program that has a shot, especially since they have half of those 8 non P5 titles.

 

[SU94]

I mean they have been super successful and that fanbase should appreciate Bill Self.
385-83 in 13 years.
12 regular season Big XII titles
7 Big XII tournament titles
1 National Title
2 Final Fours
Self has had Kansas as a 4 seed or better EVERY year.
2004- 4 seed Elite 8
2005- 3 seed first round flameout
2006- 4 seed first round flameout
2007- 1 seed Elite 8
2008- 1 seed NC
2009- 3 seed Sweet 16
2010- 1 seed second round loss to 9 seed
2011- 1 seed Elite 8 lost to 11 seed VCU
2012- 2 seed Final Four lost NC game
2013- 1 seed Sweet 16
2014- 2 seed second round loss to 10 seed
2015- 2 seed second round loss to 7 seed
2016- 1 seed Elite 8.

This kinda of success is unbelievable but when you look at it the regular season.
UConn has missed the NCAA tournament 4 times during this stretch and has 3 NCs.
Syracuse has missed the NCAA tournament 3 times during this stretch and has as many Final Fours.
Duke and UNC have 2 titles during this stretch.

Kansas fans must be frustrated by the tournament but their regular season success is amazing.

What is better Post season runs or dominant regular seasons?

I am just not one that thinks (and this goes for any sport) that there can only be one team/school that has a great season. Everyone else is a loser, right? I don't think like that. It's way too simplistic.

Were the Atlanta Braves of the 1990s and into the 2000s some pathetic failure because they only won it all once amid 13 straight NL East titles? I don't see Jim Kelly's Bills as a failure as they likely saved the franchise for Western New York. Brad Stevens and Butler basketball share the shame of losing 2 straight title games? Terrible to see that John Cheney wasted 40 years of his life as a coach. He molded men, but never won it all. Same goes for Jerry Sloan, Frank Beamer and Buck Shoewalter. Ernie Banks = loser. Oh, and Phil Sims > Dan Marino. Come on people. It's a little deeper than ring counts.

 

[Dave85]

Which is dumb, since it's a single elimination tournament and that lends itself to weirdness.

I think it's all about branding. The Orange are having a HUGE tournament in terms of branding.

 

[Millhouse]

I mean they have been super successful and that fanbase should appreciate Bill Self.
385-83 in 13 years.
12 regular season Big XII titles
7 Big XII tournament titles
1 National Title
2 Final Fours
Self has had Kansas as a 4 seed or better EVERY year.
2004- 4 seed Elite 8
2005- 3 seed first round flameout
2006- 4 seed first round flameout
2007- 1 seed Elite 8
2008- 1 seed NC
2009- 3 seed Sweet 16
2010- 1 seed second round loss to 9 seed
2011- 1 seed Elite 8 lost to 11 seed VCU
2012- 2 seed Final Four lost NC game
2013- 1 seed Sweet 16
2014- 2 seed second round loss to 10 seed
2015- 2 seed second round loss to 7 seed
2016- 1 seed Elite 8.

This kinda of success is unbelievable but when you look at it the regular season.
UConn has missed the NCAA tournament 4 times during this stretch and has 3 NCs.
Syracuse has missed the NCAA tournament 3 times during this stretch and has as many Final Fours.
Duke and UNC have 2 titles during this stretch.

Kansas fans must be frustrated by the tournament but their regular season success is amazing.

What is better Post season runs or dominant regular seasons?

Conference championships don't matter. Unless we win the conference. Then they matter a lot.

Nothing wrong with having multiple things to care about. Think of it like European soccer. The champions league isn't the only thing that matters