Kobe on AAU ball vs. European players.

[memcorsu]

I saw this in the headlines today and thought this would be the board to post it as it is about the AAU and recruiting circuit:

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/...ean-players-more-skilled-americans-blames-aau

Interesting comments coming from Kobe; one of the straight from hs crowd. I must admit, outside of watching teams like the Spurs or Grizz, and maybe Thunder to an extent as they play the passing team game, I am not very interested in NBA. The season is way to long and basketball is pretty bland imho (seems like they play with very little heart, then again I feel the same about the NFL and feel there is more passion at the college level). Many of the games I have watched seem like the "fundraiser" games that AAU kids play in where there is no defense and they just let the offense make a move. Basketball is much different than when I enjoyed it in the 90's.

I find it very interesting the amount of player being taken from overseas. Last year 33% of players taken were intl. predraft boards suggested 13 and there were 20 taken ( I could have missed counted as I have only had half a cup of coffee). With the success of teams like the Spurs, I would suggest that this trend will continue to increase.
http://www.nbadraft.net/2014mock_draft
http://www.nba.com/draft/2014/draftBoard.html

In 2013: 11 mock 20 taken
2012: 6 mock 16 taken
2011: 9 mock 16 taken

Now, I did not exclude players from places in Africa where there is less of a developmental structure set up as there is in Europe. I am also curious of the "Kenpaytucky" effect WWW effect and would be curios of Kobe's thoughts on it. At some point, is there a point when the product becomes so diluted that NBA teams will not be willing to take so many one and doners? Will the rule ever be changed so that it is a straight to or play 3?

http://www.nbadraft.net/2015mock_draft

As of right now, in this mock draft ( I am sure people will argue for one over they other and I could care less what is used as most have the same players just in different positions), 37% of players in the first round are freshmen. These would be the "cream of the crop" AAU kids that Kobe is talking about. These are the "potential picks" that are like trying to catch lightening in a bottle. They are the amazing athletes who, as Kobe suggests, many don't know the team aspect of the game which seems to be becoming more of a focus or at least part of the franchise discussion.

I am also curios, as looking at the mock drafts and final draft numbers, how many kids are told by agents that they are a shoe in and don't make it because they agent or scout is unaware of what kind of talent might be coming from overseas. I also am curious about how much emphasis franchises are going to put on developing programs/scouting resources overseas.

I do think by head and shoulders that our athletes are the best in the world, I also agree with Kobe that our athletes are poorly developed at a young age and with the one and done or straight from HS approach, they will not get the development that will allow an good to great athlete stick in the league yet will be bounced after the first contract.

I am not saying that this is how it is, yet just seems that this is being talked about in the NBA. I am sure there are areas that I might be incorrect, am just was looking for y'alls thoughts as this is the board that has to do with recruiting and many of you have such great knowledge and feedback.

 

[dyedorange]

That's interesting about the number of euro players taken in the mock draft vs. the real thing, and the effect this has on US players entering the draft. I imagine this is one of the reasons JB is so distrustful of the opinions of Chad Ford, et al., and really drives home the fact that those mock draft boards are purely speculative.

 

[Francis03]

I saw this in the headlines today and thought this would be the board to post it as it is about the AAU and recruiting circuit:

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/...ean-players-more-skilled-americans-blames-aau

Interesting comments coming from Kobe; one of the straight from hs crowd. I must admit, outside of watching teams like the Spurs or Grizz, and maybe Thunder to an extent as they play the passing team game, I am not very interested in NBA. The season is way to long and basketball is pretty bland imho (seems like they play with very little heart, then again I feel the same about the NFL and feel there is more passion at the college level). Many of the games I have watched seem like the "fundraiser" games that AAU kids play in where there is no defense and they just let the offense make a move. Basketball is much different than when I enjoyed it in the 90's.

I find it very interesting the amount of player being taken from overseas. Last year 33% of players taken were intl. predraft boards suggested 13 and there were 20 taken ( I could have missed counted as I have only had half a cup of coffee). With the success of teams like the Spurs, I would suggest that this trend will continue to increase.
http://www.nbadraft.net/2014mock_draft
http://www.nba.com/draft/2014/draftBoard.html

In 2013: 11 mock 20 taken
2012: 6 mock 16 taken
2011: 9 mock 16 taken

Now, I did not exclude players from places in Africa where there is less of a developmental structure set up as there is in Europe. I am also curious of the "Kenpaytucky" effect WWW effect and would be curios of Kobe's thoughts on it. At some point, is there a point when the product becomes so diluted that NBA teams will not be willing to take so many one and doners? Will the rule ever be changed so that it is a straight to or play 3?

http://www.nbadraft.net/2015mock_draft

As of right now, in this mock draft ( I am sure people will argue for one over they other and I could care less what is used as most have the same players just in different positions), 37% of players in the first round are freshmen. These would be the "cream of the crop" AAU kids that Kobe is talking about. These are the "potential picks" that are like trying to catch lightening in a bottle. They are the amazing athletes who, as Kobe suggests, many don't know the team aspect of the game which seems to be becoming more of a focus or at least part of the franchise discussion.

I am also curios, as looking at the mock drafts and final draft numbers, how many kids are told by agents that they are a shoe in and don't make it because they agent or scout is unaware of what kind of talent might be coming from overseas. I also am curious about how much emphasis franchises are going to put on developing programs/scouting resources overseas.

I do think by head and shoulders that our athletes are the best in the world, I also agree with Kobe that our athletes are poorly developed at a young age and with the one and done or straight from HS approach, they will not get the development that will allow an good to great athlete stick in the league yet will be bounced after the first contract.

I am not saying that this is how it is, yet just seems that this is being talked about in the NBA. I am sure there are areas that I might be incorrect, am just was looking for y'alls thoughts as this is the board that has to do with recruiting and many of you have such great knowledge and feedback.

Kobe must be talking about himself, because the version we've seen the past few years shooting 9-27 and yelling at his teammates is not a good example of development. On a serious note, I've seen all of these NBA folks like Barkley and Kobe complain about the AAU culture and lack of development and such. My question is with all of the millions that they've made in B-Ball and sneaker companies(biggest pimps and suppliers in AAU), why not try to do something about it and set up camps and different type of functions. Always easy to sit on your high horse, count milly's, and find fault about something but refuse to do anything to fix it or make an attempt to. Plus over the past 6 years or so, Team USA from the U16 level and above have been pretty much dominant in world competition.

 

[Francis03]

Kobe must be talking about himself, because the version we've seen the past few years shooting 9-27 and yelling at his teammates is not a good example of development. On a serious note, I've seen all of these NBA folks like Barkley and Kobe complain about the AAU culture and lack of development and such. My question is with all of the millions that they've made in B-Ball and sneaker companies(biggest pimps and suppliers in AAU), why not try to do something about it and set up camps and different type of functions. Always easy to sit on your high horse, count milly's, and find fault about something but refuse to do anything to fix it or make an attempt to. Plus over the past 6 years or so, Team USA from the U16 level and above have been pretty much dominant in world competition.

I think the biggest issue over here is more of the coddled/hype culture that the youngins get at an early age. You have kids receiving gifts and all kinds of advances being told how great they are starting before they even enter High School.

 

[Eagles20]

Kobe must be talking about himself, because the version we've seen the past few years shooting 9-27 and yelling at his teammates is not a good example of development. On a serious note, I've seen all of these NBA folks like Barkley and Kobe complain about the AAU culture and lack of development and such. My question is with all of the millions that they've made in B-Ball and sneaker companies(biggest pimps and suppliers in AAU), why not try to do something about it and set up camps and different type of functions. Always easy to sit on your high horse, count milly's, and find fault about something but refuse to do anything to fix it or make an attempt to. Plus over the past 6 years or so, Team USA from the U16 level and above have been pretty much dominant in world competition.

Kobe's fundamentals have always been strong though. His mid post game is very complex and it is something he has worked on a lot over the years. His footwork is very good and he was always a good defender and help defender b4 he lost his athleticism. It seems like a lot of good freshman players are more athletically dominant than they are fundamentally strong. I think his point about coaches not teaching great athletes fundamentals early and instead having them rely on superior athleticism isn't far off.

 

[Francis03]

Kobe's fundamentals have always been strong though. His mid post game is very complex and it is something he has worked on a lot over the years. His footwork is very good and he was always a good defender and help defender b4 he lost his athleticism. It seems like a lot of good freshman players are more athletically dominant than they are fundamentally strong. I think his point about coaches not teaching great athletes fundamentals early and instead having them rely on superior athleticism isn't far off.

Kobe is one of the greats, no disputing that and he's very qualified to have opinion and thoughts. I rather just see guys who obviously have the resources and connections to give back do something about it instead of pointing out blame on coaches and such. Kobe has a big shoe deal with Nike. How about asking Nike to spend some of that bread to get the most qualified coaches to teach these kids the proper fundamentals during the summer time while they're on the come up, instead of spoiling them with free gifts.

 

[RF2044]

That's interesting about the number of euro players taken in the mock draft vs. the real thing, and the effect this has on US players entering the draft. I imagine this is one of the reasons JB is so distrustful of the opinions of Chad Ford, et al., and really drives home the fact that those mock draft boards are purely speculative.

Very good point. I think that is DEFINITELY part of the issue with projecting draft range. Most sports media types, mock draft bloggers, and prognosticators don't have a clue about foreign players. At the very least, they sure aren't scouting them and / or aware of most of them, beyond what they read second hand in other mock drafts.

NBA teams take international scouting seriously, and aren't afraid to pull the trigger on those guys, which is why so many foreign players are drafted then projected, while the commentators covering the draft on TNT are scratching their heads on half the players.

And several teams use foreign players strategically, to add assets but stash them overseas for a few seasons while they retain rights to the player, as a short-term way to handle the roster / salary cap.

 

[Francis03]

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-ba...onal-lakers-espn-european-world-championships
Thought this was funny but spot on.

 

[dyedorange]

Very good point. I think that is DEFINITELY part of the issue with projecting draft range. Most sports media types, mock draft bloggers, and prognosticators don't have a clue about foreign players. At the very least, they sure aren't scouting them and / or aware of most of them, beyond what they read second hand in other mock drafts.

NBA teams take international scouting seriously, and aren't afraid to pull the trigger on those guys, which is why so many foreign players are drafted then projected, while the commentators covering the draft on TNT are scratching their heads on half the players.

And several teams use foreign players strategically, to add assets but stash them overseas for a few seasons while they retain rights to the player, as a short-term way to handle the roster / salary cap.

What I find confusing is that I thought Ford and people like him were getting their info. directly from NBA GMs, or at least people within NBA organizations that know what prospective players are being looked it. What's suprising (at least to me) is that there's still so much mystery about what teams are actually going to do on draft night. If Ford and those guys aren't working from legit insider info., then what's the point of what they do?

 

[MSOrange]

I think the biggest issue over here is more of the coddled/hype culture that the youngins get at an early age. You have kids receiving gifts and all kinds of advances being told how great they are starting before they even enter High School.

Congrats on pulling off responding to your own post so well Francis. Not many can pull that off as smoothly as you did.

 

[dyedorange]

Congrats on pulling off responding to your own post so well Francis. Not many can pull that off as smoothly as you did.

At least he's not arguing with himself!

 

[RF2044]

What I find confusing is that I thought Ford and people like him were getting their info. directly from NBA GMs, or at least people within NBA organizations that know what prospective players are being looked it. What's suprising (at least to me) is that there's still so much mystery about what teams are actually going to do on draft night. If Ford and those guys aren't working from legit insider info., then what's the point of what they do?

I think people like Ford are working off of legit insider info, but that doesn't mean that Ford is privy to what teams will actually do on draft night [why on earth would they tip their hand?]. People like Ford also lack an informed perspective on most international prospects, so their projections are off base when it comes to slotting the draft.

Last year, when Ennis and Grant both dropped, I read something that indicated that there were about 50 players who were told that they had first round grades last year. There's only 30 teams [I believe], so that means a lot of those guys get pushed. And many of them fall out of the draft altogether when you start factoring in the 15-20 international players that teams select.

 

[Francis03]

Congrats on pulling off responding to your own post so well Francis. Not many can pull that off as smoothly as you did.

Lol I try.

 

[Francis03]

At least he's not arguing with himself!

I'll leave that to the pros on the main board.

 

[dyedorange]

I think people like Ford are working off of legit insider info, but that doesn't mean that Ford is privy to what teams will actually do on draft night [why on earth would they tip their hand?]. People like Ford also lack an informed perspective on most international prospects, so their projections are off base when it comes to slotting the draft.

Last year, when Ennis and Grant both dropped, I read something that indicated that there were about 50 players who were told that they had first round grades last year. There's only 30 teams [I believe], so that means a lot of those guys get pushed. And many of them fall out of the draft altogether when you start factoring in the 15-20 international players that teams select.

Yeah, I completely agree that Ford is operating on whatever partial info. his sources are giving him, and that ultimately he can't know each team's exact plans. What I don't get is if NBA teams are looking at all these foreign players leading up to the draft, and Ford is presumably getting the pulse of which players are being scouted, why are so many of these foreign players not showing up in the mock drafts? It'd be one thing if he had all these foreign guys listed in his mocks, but just got the eventual draft order wrong. But these are significant numbers of players that just aren't showing up on his lists at all.

Also, Ford himself may not be totally up to speed on foreign talent, but aren't his mocks supposed to be some sort of aggregate opinion of actual NBA types that he gets his info. from? Obviously these NBA guys are going to be pretty sly about whatever info. they give out, but there's a different kind of say/do disconnect happening with regard to how teams deal with foreign players. Maybe, given that the foreign players are less likely to be on everyone's radars, team regard them more like trade secrets are less willing to talk about plans to draft them?

Don't really know why I care, but it's just odd and sort of irritating that the mocks don't line up with the actual drafts, yet college players/agents put so much stock in them. College players are relying on this information to make a very important life decision, and they're kind of getting screwed. It's like giving a kid the wrong textbook to study before an exam.

 

[longtimefan]

What I find confusing is that I thought Ford and people like him were getting their info. directly from NBA GMs, or at least people within NBA organizations that know what prospective players are being looked it. What's suprising (at least to me) is that there's still so much mystery about what teams are actually going to do on draft night. If Ford and those guys aren't working from legit insider info., then what's the point of what they do?

I would guess that the scouts and other NBA types tell Ford all he knows, but not all they know.

To put it another way--they are telling him the truth, but not the whole truth or nothing but the truth.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Kobe is one of the greats, no disputing that and he's very qualified to have opinion and thoughts. I rather just see guys who obviously have the resources and connections to give back do something about it instead of pointing out blame on coaches and such. Kobe has a big shoe deal with Nike. How about asking Nike to spend some of that bread to get the most qualified coaches to teach these kids the proper fundamentals during the summer time while they're on the come up, instead of spoiling them with free gifts.

Don't forget, the current skills camps are less than 15 years old (LeBron, Chris Paul, etc.). They probably feel like they are making progress. EYBL also is probably a better show case than ABCD used to be, depends more on teamwork to advance. Before that, you had to back to Howard Garfinkel and Pete Newell for skills camps.