making a murderer | Syracusefan.com

making a murderer

Pretty sure there is one, or else I read about it in a thread not titled this
 
Watched it last week, pretty compelling stuff.

I would solicit everyone's theories, but I suppose that would introduce spoilers.
 
Read an interesting article about the show yesterday that implied some of the actual evidence from the case was not presented in the show and the prosecutors questioned whether that was intentional to drive up the drama factor of the show. Haven't seen it yet, but very interested.
 
I probably won't watch. I usually suspect certain facts are being omitted in documentaries with political agendas.
 
Read an interesting article about the show yesterday that implied some of the actual evidence from the case was not presented in the show and the prosecutors questioned whether that was intentional to drive up the drama factor of the show. Haven't seen it yet, but very interested.

I read a lot of those - it all seemed fairly weak to me.
 
OburgOrange said:
Watched 4 episodes last night. Finishing it off tonight

How many episodes are there and how long are the episodes?
 
How many episodes are there and how long are the episodes?
10, one hour each. Hmmm, may not be able to get the rest in tonight. :eek:
Hard to stop watching it once you get going.
 
PhatOrange said:
he's as guilty as guilty can be

You don't think there was anything nefarious about some of the evidence used to prosecute him?
 
I'm on episode 5 and this isn't about him being guilty or not guilty. It's about the predatory nature of our joke of a criminal justice system. From the cops to the prosecutors to the judges, the system seems more set up to prove your innocence than how it should be, proving your guilt. That is ratcheted up ten fold when the defendant is poor and/or not well educated.

Whether he did it or not, he should not be in jail. The investigation is an absolute joke. That pos Ken Kratz is on all the talk shows acting like circumstantial evidence that wasn't included indicates his guilt, no, no it doesn't because it all has as many holes in it as the nonsensical evidence that was included.

Aside from Steven Avery, the whole Brendan Dassey saga is a complete travesty. The way they preyed on his youth/fear/incompetence is scary.

Dean Strang and Jerry Buting give me hope for humanity.
 
I'm on episode 5 and this isn't about him being guilty or not guilty. It's about the predatory nature of our joke of a criminal justice system. From the cops to the prosecutors to the judges, the system seems more set up to prove your innocence than how it should be, proving your guilt. That is ratcheted up ten fold when the defendant is poor and/or not well educated.

Whether he did it or not, he should not be in jail. The investigation is an absolute joke. That pos Ken Kratz is on all the talk shows acting like circumstantial evidence that wasn't included indicates his guilt, no, no it doesn't because it all has as many holes in it as the nonsensical evidence that was included.

Aside from Steven Avery, the whole Brendan Dassey saga is a complete travesty. The way they preyed on his youth/fear/incompetence is scary.

Dean Strang and Jerry Buting give me hope for humanity.
I worked on this case. What this snippet doesn't say is that The father had no contact with the dauughter from BEFORE The first exam.
The original DA, knowingly using false evidence, got promoted.
http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=3790
 
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From what I read, there's a lot of Avery's back story and supporting evidence for the presecution that I don't think was included in the series (I haven't watched episode 10 yet).

Whether or not it's all true, the documentary seemed to omit:

- Avery had been requesting Halbach to take photos of his vehicles for sale for Auto Trader and would greet her nearly nude when she arrived
- DNA on the RAV 4 keys was from perspiration, not blood
- Avery would call Halbach from blocked numbers (*67)
- Avery molested his nephew
- Avery sexually assaulted a nephew's girlfriend
- Forensic evidence proved the bullet with Halbach's DNA was fired from Avery's gun
- Avery soaked an animal in oil/gasoline and threw it into a bonfire
- Avery talked about torturing, raping, and killing women to other inmates during his first prison sentence
- I have also heard that parts of Brendan's testimony/admission are not nearly as coerced as the documentary made it seem, but there was obviously very selective editing going on

(As a note - the above is just what I read looking at blogs and news articles after Googling evidence supporting his guilt one night -- I have no idea the validity of all of the claims).

In the end, I think the DA/Sheriffs had a very strong suspicion the Avery committed the murder (and he very well may have), but the jump from strong suspicion to beyond a reasonable doubt was too much to overcome, so evidence was obviously planted.

I also think it was a very biased documentary -- it proved very much that the police was corrupt, but I think it strongly implied that Avery was an innocent man when there is very important contradicting information that it didn't present.

Even with what I've read above (assuming it is true and presented in court), I think I would have a strong suspicion Avery did in fact kill Halbach, but with everything that was presented, I don't believe I could say he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt with all evidence presented by the defense.
 
From what I read, there's a lot of Avery's back story and supporting evidence for the presecution that I don't think was included in the series (I haven't watched episode 10 yet).

Whether or not it's all true, the documentary seemed to omit:

- Avery had been requesting Halbach to take photos of his vehicles for sale for Auto Trader and would greet her nearly nude when she arrived
- DNA on the RAV 4 keys was from perspiration, not blood
- Avery would call Halbach from blocked numbers (*67)
- Avery molested his nephew
- Avery s e xually assaulted a nephew's girlfriend
- Forensic evidence proved the bullet with Halbach's DNA was fired from Avery's gun
- Avery soaked an animal in oil/gasoline and threw it into a bonfire
- Avery talked about torturing, raping, and killing women to other inmates during his first prison sentence
- I have also heard that parts of Brendan's testimony/admission are not nearly as coerced as the documentary made it seem, but there was obviously very selective editing going on

(As a note - the above is just what I read looking at blogs and news articles after Googling evidence supporting his guilt one night -- I have no idea the validity of all of the claims).

In the end, I think the DA/Sheriffs had a very strong suspicion the Avery committed the murder (and he very well may have), but the jump from strong suspicion to beyond a reasonable doubt was too much to overcome, so evidence was obviously planted.

I also think it was a very biased documentary -- it proved very much that the police was corrupt, but I think it strongly implied that Avery was an innocent man when there is very important contradicting information that it didn't present.

Even with what I've read above (assuming it is true and presented in court), I think I would have a strong suspicion Avery did in fact kill Halbach, but with everything that was presented, I don't believe I could say he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt with all evidence presented by the defense.
This is where I'm at. Is he innocent? I don't know. Is he guilty? I don't know. What I do know is that his lawyers were forced to prove his innocence as opposed to the prosecution being forced to prove his guilt. All along the way, "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" was cast aside for an "I think, maybe, he did it" verdict.

If he can spend his entire adult life in jail over a sexual assault/rape he didn't commit and a murder most people are 50/50 on then that should scare each and every one of us.

The tactics used by law enforcement, the prosecution and judge should also scare each and every one of us. Just an overwhelming abuse of power on every level.
 
im not convinced he did it. im not convinced he didnt do it. i am convinced the police planted evidence. therefore, NOT GUILTY

i dont believe a single word that cop colburn said. how did he have all the information on the car before it was "found"??
 
From what I read, there's a lot of Avery's back story and supporting evidence for the presecution that I don't think was included in the series (I haven't watched episode 10 yet).

Whether or not it's all true, the documentary seemed to omit:

- Avery had been requesting Halbach to take photos of his vehicles for sale for Auto Trader and would greet her nearly nude when she arrived
- DNA on the RAV 4 keys was from perspiration, not blood
- Avery would call Halbach from blocked numbers (*67)
- Avery molested his nephew
- Avery s e xually assaulted a nephew's girlfriend
- Forensic evidence proved the bullet with Halbach's DNA was fired from Avery's gun
- Avery soaked an animal in oil/gasoline and threw it into a bonfire
- Avery talked about torturing, raping, and killing women to other inmates during his first prison sentence
- I have also heard that parts of Brendan's testimony/admission are not nearly as coerced as the documentary made it seem, but there was obviously very selective editing going on


This is where Kratz (the DA is being a douche again and misleading people), cuz that's what they does.

1. One time from reports he opened the door in a towel. He's a hillbilly...hillbillies do weird things like mow lawns in their underwear, and answer doors in towels. Co-worker testified that they joked about it, laughed, and she said, "ewwwww." It isn't quite the terrifying bit of information it sounds like when taken in context - he makes it sound like she was scared to go there. Co-worker presented it as a funny interaction.

2. You cannot prove that it's sweat. Even the DNA expert (not included in video, but you can find it) that it could very well have gotten there from her NOT changing gloves after testing various bits of evidence. Which is just stupidity. On cross she admitted it could have been from lots of things - a toothbrush rubbed against it, for example.

3. Eh, his lawyers said this wasn't unusual behaviour for him to do that...not sure what it proves regardless, or if you want to believe his lawyers. He had an appointment with her. What would he be hiding by blocking his number? Everyone knew she was going to his house.

4. Not sure about this...would have to check.

5. I'm fairly certain every single person on that car graveyard has sexual assaults against them - except I think Avery. The shady alibi guy Tadych has some serious ones. They called that girl in, they went fishing, she denied being assaulted (or something like that).

6. What? That's not true - they proved it came from the same type of gun. Not quite the same.

7. Like two decades ago. I would be happy with him going to jail for life just for that though. I love cats. He's a sick **** for that alone.

8. You're going to call that evidence though? They showed his crazy ass prison letters to his ex-wife...seems plausible to me fwiw. But, still not sure it matters considering the source.

9. No, it is as coerced as it seems. People often reference one time where Dassey seems to give the story without prompting. I was tricked by that one too!!! Except he was given all those answers earlier that day at the school and then made to repeat them at the station. He's just regurgitating the story he was fed hours earlier back to them - and still getting crap wrong. You can read those transcripts if you want proof. They're all over the place.

Things left out that would help the defense, I suppose...

A couple members of the jury had all sorts of ties to the PD...one was one of the cops dad, or something like that.

Woman testing the hood didn't change her gloves - possibly introducing DNA onto hatch of hood (admitted in court).

The lady that introduced the "inconclusive" test as evidence, and had a note from a detective telling her to place him at the scene, found a hair on the woman's body that helped convict him of the rape twenty years earlier. How'd she manage that? She also is the most error-prone tech in the world!!!! :) No, they had proof of that...okay, maybe in the state. I'd have to look again.

The only person they did bar from the crime scene was the county coroner, who, by statute, should have been the one examining the burn remains. Sooo, the one person that should have been there was barred, the people who they barred were allowed to go in and out as they pleased...makes sense.

Person that monitors evidence room testified that they didn't actually keep a log even though they were supposed to, but have since tightened up on that rule.

Forensic anthropologist testified that the burn site couldn't have possible generated enough heat to burn a body to that extent.

The lying Dassey that acted as an alibi for Tadych (the Uncle that tried selling a 22 shortly after the murder) said he saw Hallbach enter Avery's home....he got her outfit all wrong though.

The gun expert from the crime lab, couldn't find anything on the gun, which you would expect from a close range shot. Said it came from the same make/model of gun, but more or less had to admit that he couldn't tell anything.

One of the lawyers, not sure if this was brought up at trial, said there was deer blood all over the garage. So, somehow they managed to clean all of Hallbach's blood up...and her DNA, but not a deer's or their own.

Some of that is stuff from trial, some stuff isn't...obviously Dassey wasn't used at Avery's trial, I don't think the deer blood was in trial - not sure though. I heard that in an interview.

There are lots of angles on both sides about the evidence not presented in the documentary...point still remains, dude got railroaded.
 
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I think Avery likely did it, but the brother, ex boyfriend and roommate who didn't report her missing for days are all sketchy as f***.

Regardless of whether Avery did it, there was clearly reasonable doubt. Avery is borderline mentally ed and there's no possible way he could do such a great job cleaning the alleged crime scenes except for the miracle shell and key. They combed those two locations for months and then the two a****** cops that had no business being there found both?! Come on!

But as much as I'm disgusted over Avery's life being stolen from him, what happened to Brendan Dassey is heartbreaking. I started tearing up pretty bad when he asked his mom about WrestleMania. His confession was obviously made up and coerced. And he has 69 IQ. His lawyer and the "investigator" are both despicable human beings. I feel bad but I was happy when I found out his first lawyer has cancer.

Frankly there's too much focus on Avery and not enough on Dassey.
 
I think Avery likely did it, but the brother, ex boyfriend and roommate who didn't report her missing for days are all sketchy as f***.

Regardless of whether Avery did it, there was clearly reasonable doubt. Avery is borderline mentally . . . . . . ed and there's no possible way he could do such a great job cleaning the alleged crime scenes except for the miracle shell and key. They combed those two locations for months and then the two a****** cops that had no business being there found both?! Come on!

But as much as I'm disgusted over Avery's life being stolen from him, what happened to Brendan Dassey is heartbreaking. I started tearing up pretty bad when he asked his mom about WrestleMania. His confession was obviously made up and coerced. And he has 69 IQ. His lawyer and the "investigator" are both despicable human beings. I feel bad but I was happy when I found out his first lawyer has cancer.

Frankly there's too much focus on Avery and not enough on Dassey.

I'm at the point where I don't think he did it - but I've been all over the place on that one.

What are the odds this dolt, who did TV interviews, had his phone calls taped for two years, etc...is savvy enough to have never slipped up once? It seems highly improbable to me. You never know though.

In likelihood of doing it, if I had to guess:

1. Tadych/Other Dassey (act as each other alibis, caught lying, Tadych gleeful about Avery going to prison, both had access to a 22, Tadych tried to sell one days after the murder, had access to the smelter, and everything else Avery did...) Tadych has a more violent history than Avery.

2. Creepy Ex-Boyfriend - Guessed her user names and passwords? Deleted some phone messages...seems more likely he already had her user name and password and was keeping tabs. Also, how do you not remember any details from the last time you saw her alive - which was right before she disappeared (day before I think)? Kid is just odd. He knew where she would be more than likely with the phone access...He organized the magical "god led me to it" search that found the car in 5 minutes on a 40 acre property. Although the PD could have orchestrated that.

In this scenario, I think the Brother (who says the family will probably have to grieve for her for a "couple days" prior to knowing she's dead) is somehow involved as well.

3. Colborne stumbled upon the body, unknown killer this time is involved (he called in to have the plates run three days before the car was found), and away we go...police hold land for 8 days and while doing so set it all up as best they can. And continue to do so as the case seems to be lacking strength...I mean, he and that other dude are caught lying multiple times at trial as it is.

It's fun to speculate.

Agree though, the Dassey stuff is awful. When he's talking about being stupid...my god.
 
I'm almost convinced its 1 of 2 scenarios:
- older Dassey dip$h1t and tadych did it, period
- hallbsch's ex and/or brother had something to do with it

They're the only things that seem plausible

Avery is incredibly unintelligent but he would have to be essentially brain dead for some of the evidence to be left as it was all the while being the greatest crime scene coverer up of all time eliminating any hint of blood from such a gruesome scene. I can't even effectively clean my kitchen counter without leaving evidence of a frozen pizza and i consider myself at least marginally more intelligent than Avery.
 

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