making a murderer

[Ghost]

The brother and ex boyfriend creep me the f out

Right? The ex-boyfriend has this smarmy look on his face, and contorts his face on the stand all the time. That scene where they're arranging the search and speaking to reporters and both keep glancing at each other in the "What do we say next" manner was odd too. Soooooo many odd things in the 10 hours.

 

[DeGrozz]

<Lots of information>

I'm not gonna lie -- I don't think I've read nearly as much as you seem to have on this case, aside from a few minutes of Googling last night. I'm in the camp that thinks there is reasonable doubt about his guilt (based on what was presented in the series), but I am no where near convinced he is innocent either. There are a couple reasons that I think this. (I'm gonna bullet point them out -- not to be annoying or condescending, I just couldn't write a clear narrative while watching the national championship game)

First, look at who's the defense and who's investigating:

1 - Steven Avery had two extremely intelligent, extremely well respected attorneys working his defense.
2 - Calumet and Manitowoc counties are small, rural counties. I doubt that there are many homicide cases that are investigated in them -- especially under circumstances when a department has forfeited its rights to investigate to a neighboring county.
3 - You combine expert criminal defense attorneys and small-town, likely inexperienced, sheriffs in a chaotic situation, and I'd fully expect the attorneys pick apart the procedures taken by the cops.

Second, how do you plant all of that evidence (assuming the sheriffs didn't kill Halbach to frame Avery):

1 - You'd first have to find the car. If Manitowoc is anything like the rural areas I know, it's probably filled with seldom used backroads, abandoned private roads, old logging trails, etc that would be a prime place to stash away a car.
2 - There are thousands of concerned citizens going about their every day lives, dozens of volunteers searching backroads, well-intentioned hunters traveling the remote roads all over the area with their buddies and sons, people out 4 wheeling, hikers and nature walkers, and maybe a few crooked cops who have their eyes out for this car.
3 - In order for that car to be planted in Avery's junkyard, you'd have to assume that one of few crooked sheriffs randomly stumbled upon the missing car instead of one of the tens of thousands of people going about their every day life. I think it's reasonable to assume that probably didn't happen, although the defense brilliantly brought in a random phone call where Lenk called to confirm the plate number (Honestly - if I was trying to frame someone for murder, I'd know what car I was looking for and not need call the Sheriff's office or dispatcher where all calls were recorded to confirm the plate numbers)
4 - Also, I don't believe the individuals who found the car were 'in on it' (though the ex-bf and brother creep me out). If I was trying to find a car in a junkyard, I'd probably start on the perimeter and work my way in the the same way that those volunteers did, so I don't think it was that weird the car was found quickly.

Next, you have to think about the body (I'm assuming the bones were Theresa's body -- I think they said there was still flesh on some -- but you may know better than me):

1 - There are two scenarios that I think would be most likely with the body if Avery was framed. A) Halbach's dead body was in her car or B) Halbach's body was hidden like her car was.
2 - If A) were true, I would have expected there to be significant evidence of Halbach's blood in the car, but I don't think that was the case.
3 - If B) were true, then one of the few crooked sheriffs would have also needed to find Halbach's body along with the car before anyone else in the county randomly stumbled across her. I think this is also highly unlikely.

Finally, I think you'd have to keep too many people quiet in order to frame Avery for murder:

1 - On day 1, you have a brother and an ex-boyfriend. You probably don't know who they are (I'd assume a prior relationship would have been exposed by the documentary). You'd have to have the audacity to go up to these two men and say "I know you are organizing a search for your sister and clues that would identify her killer, but instead, how about you do a few things that will help me frame someone I have a personal vendetta against, instead of trying to find the real killer".
2 - Then you'd have to find a volunteer that you tip off about where the car is and expect them to keep up a lie about a framed murder so you can fulfill a personal vendetta.
3 - Then you have to turn to a colleague and say 'hey, let's frame an innocent man for murder'.
4 - The deeper you think the conspiracy goes, the deeper you realize it's a stretch to have so many more people in on framing an innocent man.

Personally, this is how I believe things went down:

1 - The victim obviously arrived at the Avery compound.
2 - Halbach was murdered, but not in Avery's home the way the prosecution framed it
3 - The body was burned and the car was hidden in the salvage yard
4 - The car was found and soon after the body's remains were discovered
5 - Seeing the opportunity of the situation individuals with a personal vendetta against Avery decided to leave no doubt that Avery (out of everyone in the 'holler') committed the murderer
6 - Using the chaos and disorganization of an appointed investigator, one or two members of the sheriff's department continued to plant evidence by taking advantage of a poorly controlled small town/county law enforcement system.
7 - Dassey and Avery had terrible luck with their court appointed attorneys, especially Dassey who was just overmatched against a professional interrogator
8 - In even worse luck, a snake oil salesman DA was appointed to the case
9 - And to top it all off a media-influenced and personally biased jury was appointed

I think Avery was lucky enough to stumble on fantastic attorneys that showed the injustice of the system.

I do not believe that Sherriff Lenk was lucky enough to discover both the car and the body, before the thousands of others in the county did, to frame Avery.

I also do not believe that a body was burned on Steven Avery's property without his knowledge of it. Whether he, his nephew, his brother-in-law, or someone else killed her, I don't know. To me, it just seems like too much of a coincidence that a car and body were found by a crooked cop before anyone else and that they were able to influence so many other people to take place in their personal grudges.

And holy moly -- the second half is kicked off. I'd love to hear what people that know more about the case thinks about how I saw it -- I very well may be missing things due to enjoying some wine with the Mrs. while binging quite a few episodes on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday night...

 

[Ghost]

1 - You'd first have to find the car. If Manitowoc is anything like the rural areas I know, it's probably filled with seldom used backroads, abandoned private roads, old logging trails, etc that would be a prime place to stash away a car.
2 - There are thousands of concerned citizens going about their every day lives, dozens of volunteers searching backroads, well-intentioned hunters traveling the remote roads all over the area with their buddies and sons, people out 4 wheeling, hikers and nature walkers, and maybe a few crooked cops who have their eyes out for this car.
3 - In order for that car to be planted in Avery's junkyard, you'd have to assume that one of few crooked sheriffs randomly stumbled upon the missing car instead of one of the tens of thousands of people going about their every day life. I think it's reasonable to assume that probably didn't happen, although the defense brilliantly brought in a random phone call where Lenk called to confirm the plate number (Honestly - if I was trying to frame someone for murder, I'd know what car I was looking for and not need call the Sheriff's office or dispatcher where all calls were recorded to confirm the plate numbers)
4 - Also, I don't believe the individuals who found the car were 'in on it' (though the ex-bf and brother creep me out). If I was trying to find a car in a junkyard, I'd probably start on the perimeter and work my way in the the same way that those volunteers did, so I don't think it was that weird the car was found quickly.

I have to read this whole thing still (watching the game as well) - but it's interesting thus far!

Don't you think it's a tad weird that ALL the crucial evidence happened to be found by the two officers that were NOT working on the case, and were just recently deposed in a lawsuit by Avery? And all that evidence had been overlooked for days...until those two (who were not supposed to be working the case) found it?

I mean, the one Sheriff describes shaking that desk like he was a human blender on the stand (very weird - it's a pretty crappy, flimsy desk), but he didn't manage to knock everything off the top of it? I mean, maybe before they took the picture of the key they picked up other stuff and put it back on/in the desk, but...that seems odd too.

The bullet, the keys, Colborne's odd call to run the plates...the one cop not knowing when he was at the truck. Day/Night...

 

[Ghost]

1 - There are two scenarios that I think would be most likely with the body if Avery was framed. A) Halbach's dead body was in her car or B) Halbach's body was hidden like her car was.
2 - If A) were true, I would have expected there to be significant evidence of Halbach's blood in the car, but I don't think that was the case.
3 - If B) were true, then one of the few crooked sheriffs would have also needed to find Halbach's body along with the car before anyone else in the county randomly stumbled across her. I think this is also highly unlikely.

Her blood/hair is in the back of the Rav4. Which means, Avery killed her in his garage with his gun, took her out to her Rav4 (or drove the Rav4 to her), and then drove her around for a bit in the back of the SUV. Dead.

Then he came back to his house and burned her in back of his house in the fire pit. Invited a neighbor over to watch it as well. He took a couple calls from his girlfriend during this time as well....

Then drove the car back to where they found it, did not clean that at all - leaving blood smears in it. It was however wiped clean of prints (which is possible without wiping clean...from what I've read at least). He left it on his property, but then he was smart enough to go back and completely scrub his garage of all DNA, blood, etc...and his gun too. The dimwit did that. Got rid of ALL evidence...but left blatantly obvious blood smears in the Rav4? It's just weird.

Again, I think he may have done it...but the police were helping this case along, steering where they wanted it to go - regardless of who actually did do it.

 

[DeGrozz]

I have to read this whole thing still (watching the game as well) - but it's interesting thus far!

Don't you think it's a tad weird that ALL the crucial evidence happened to be found by the two officers that were NOT working on the case, and were just recently deposed in a lawsuit by Avery? And all that evidence had been overlooked for days...until those two (who were not supposed to be working the case) found it?

I mean, the one Sheriff describes shaking that desk like he was a human blender on the stand (very weird - it's a pretty crappy, flimsy desk), but he didn't manage to knock everything off the top of it? I mean, maybe before they took the picture of the key they picked up other stuff and put it back on/in the desk, but...that seems odd too.

The bullet, the keys, Colborne's odd call to run the plates...the one cop not knowing when he was at the truck. Day/Night...

I think I addressed most of it in my post. I think the cops saw an opportunity to frame Avery beyond what they expected to be a reasonable doubt after the car was found -- they probably didn't guess Avery would get some of the best attorneys in the state instead of an over burdened public defender. If he got that public defender it would make it an open and shut case. I don't believe they planted the car or the body on his property.

As for the Sheriff (I don't remember if it was Lenk or Colburn -- again, lots of wine while watching this with the wife), I actually think it would be weirder if he was out, looking for a RAV4 to frame a man for murder and not remember the plates. I would bet it's more likely an individual gets told 'Team, we are looking for a RAV 4 with plates 123' and the cop misplaces his notes/has illegible notes and than it is for someone to be plotting to frame someone for murder and forget what car he's looking for.

 

[Ghost]

1 - On day 1, you have a brother and an ex-boyfriend. You probably don't know who they are (I'd assume a prior relationship would have been exposed by the documentary). You'd have to have the audacity to go up to these two men and say "I know you are organizing a search for your sister and clues that would identify her killer, but instead, how about you do a few things that will help me frame someone I have a personal vendetta against, instead of trying to find the real killer".
2 - Then you'd have to find a volunteer that you tip off about where the car is and expect them to keep up a lie about a framed murder so you can fulfill a personal vendetta.
3 - Then you have to turn to a colleague and say 'hey, let's frame an innocent man for murder'.
4 - The deeper you think the conspiracy goes, the deeper you realize it's a stretch to have so many more people in on framing an innocent man.

Now I'm missing the game...

On Day 1, you just go up to them and say, "Hey, we know who did it - that bum Avery!!" We saw the car, but we can't use it as evidence unless you "find it." Then send the "god guided me to the car" lady to ask for permission to search the property and magically walk directly up to it.

It doesnt' seem that hard - you could get it done just by having that "god" lady in on finding the car without involving the ex-boyfriend. Who knows who she is. Might be a family friend? I have no idea.

 

[Ghost]

I think I addressed most of it in my post. I think the cops saw an opportunity to frame Avery beyond what they expected to be a reasonable doubt after the car was found -- they probably didn't guess Avery would get some of the best attorneys in the state instead of an over burdened public defender. If he got that public defender it would make it an open and shut case. I don't believe they planted the car or the body on his property.

As for the Sheriff (I don't remember if it was Lenk or Colburn -- again, lots of wine while watching this with the wife), I actually think it would be weirder if he was out, looking for a RAV4 to frame a man for murder and not remember the plates. I would bet it's more likely an individual gets told 'Team, we are looking for a RAV 4 with plates 123' and the cop misplaces his notes/has illegible notes and than it is for someone to be plotting to frame someone for murder and forget what car he's looking for.

I think the question about the plates arises because of how he calls it in - and he calls it in from his cell phone. "Can you run these plates for me. xxx124. It's a Green Rav4." Or whatever he said. Then says on the stand, "I don't believe I said what kind of car it was." Then they replay it, and he did.

The assumption is, you don't run plates that you're looking at on a scrap of paper if you know why they're being run and whom they belong to - or ask if it's a Green Rav4 - especially if you already know it's a Green Rav4 that belongs to those plates.

Again, not all that nefarious, except in the context of everything else.

 

[DeGrozz]

Now I'm missing the game...

On Day 1, you just go up to them and say, "Hey, we know who did it - that bum Avery!!" We saw the car, but we can't use it as evidence unless you "find it." Then send the "god guided me to the car" lady to ask for permission to search the property and magically walk directly up to it.

It doesnt' seem that hard - you could get it done just by having that "god" lady in on finding the car without involving the ex-boyfriend. Who knows who she is. Might be a family friend? I have no idea.

'God-lady', 'Daughter of God-lady', brother of victim, and ex-boyfriend of victim. Those are four people that I don't think had any connections to the sheriffs. That's four people that Lenk would say 'hey, I need you to lie about this and make sure it never comes out' almost as soon as he meets them?

And that's assuming that one of the two supposedly crooked sheriffs randomly found the car outside of the Avery compound while the whole county was looking for it.

That's why I think the set-up started after the car was found in the salvage yard.

 

[DeGrozz]

I think the question about the plates arises because of how he calls it in - and he calls it in from his cell phone. "Can you run these plates for me. xxx124. It's a Green Rav4." Or whatever he said. Then says on the stand, "I don't believe I said what kind of car it was." Then they replay it, and he did.

The assumption is, you don't run plates that you're looking at on a scrap of paper if you know why they're being run and whom they belong to - or ask if it's a Green Rav4 - especially if you already know it's a Green Rav4 that belongs to those plates.

Again, not all that nefarious, except in the context of everything else.

Stuff like this is what makes it so fascinating -- you can talk for hours about the unknown. Did Lenk find the car or not? Who was really corrupt? Was it just Lenk and Colburn taking advantage of a poorly controlled investigation and system or did the conspiracy run deeper than them? What was the deal with FBI? Did they rush a test that wasn't scientifically sufficient or are they manipulating results to support local law enforcement? Why do women in the show have such bad hair? Are the salons and poor stylists in Manitowoc County really to blame for a man slowly going insane? Will the ref in the NCG talk tonight without stammering?

I really hope the whole truth comes out because of this documentary.

 

[JarHeadJim]

My only question is if Avery was smart enough to clean up all of the DNA why didn't he crush RAV4 in the car crusher. Also they said they had an incinerator at the junk yard why not burn the body and the crushed car in it?

 

[NKR1978]

First, look at who's the defense and who's investigating:

1 - Steven Avery had two extremely intelligent, extremely well respected attorneys working his defense.
2 - Calumet and Manitowoc counties are small, rural counties. I doubt that there are many homicide cases that are investigated in them -- especially under circumstances when a department has forfeited its rights to investigate to a neighboring county.
3 - You combine expert criminal defense attorneys and small-town, likely inexperienced, sheriffs in a chaotic situation, and I'd fully expect the attorneys pick apart the procedures taken by the cops.

These are fair points, and I really liked the totality of your post, but these concers undermine the criminal justice system. The state needs to prove its case, the defense doesn't have to prove anything. All they have to do is show reasonable doubt. The deck should be stacked against the state and it should not be given the benefit of the doubt when it f***s up, even if that means guilty people being acquitted.

 

[JarHeadJim]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/entertainment/steven-avery-appeal-feat/index.html

 

[tbonezone]

seems like all the suspicious evidence was found by manitowic county sheriffs. even after they were ordered off the case.
and just my guess but as a juror looking at the evidence i might conclude that the body was burned at the quarry site, transported in the janda barrel and dumped at avery's burn pit. in that order. who does that ?
also raises my doubts as to how the searchers find 1 car out of 2,000 after searching a 40 acre lot in 20 minutes.
they basically entered the property and walked right to it. add in tampered blood vial.no dna. i got doubts.

 

[CorduroyG]

also raises my doubts as to how the searchers find 1 car out of 2,000 after searching a 40 acre lot in 20 minutes.
they basically entered the property and walked right to it.

Jesus guided her!

why didnt that woman just say she got lucky? saying that a higher power guided her there just makes it more obvious shes lying and knew exactly where the car was.

 

[Cootface]

The funniest thing to me is hearing Kratz on his crusade about what a great job he did and the filmmakers left out this ironclad evidence. Then when you read it it's pretty much circumstantial nothingness.

One of those things he keeps referring to are the "leg irons and shackles" Avery used to imprison Halbach. The below is an actual court picture of these.



Leg irons? Really? And yet, you couldn't find any DNA on those? Clearly he must have soaked them in bleach... oh, wait. They wouldn't still be pink and fuzzy then...

 

[Ghost]

The funniest thing to me is hearing Kratz on his crusade about what a great job he did and the filmmakers left out this ironclad evidence. Then when you read it it's pretty much circumstantial nothingness.

One of those things he keeps referring to are the "leg irons and shackles" Avery used to imprison Halbach. The below is an actual court picture of these.

View attachment 54774

Leg irons? Really? And yet, you couldn't find any DNA on those? Clearly he must have soaked them in bleach... oh, wait. They wouldn't still be pink and fuzzy then...

I know, one of the things on the list of incriminating crap that was never mentioned was that the police found Pron in his house! OMG!

I also love the whole, "how can you question these men, they're police officers, and they have families..." Uh, because they did it like, uhhhhh, before...

 

[DeGrozz]

Did anyone watch Avery's girlfriend's (at the time) interview? I only saw the headlines, but it sounded like she was pretty damning of him.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

So I just read this article on other people Steve Avery believes could have committed the murder...who were on / near the property at the time.

The thing that strikes me is how unbelievably crappy all these human beings are...they all seem to beat women..and one even sexually assaulted his two daughters...all in the same area..at the same time...related by birth or marriage...unreal what a low functioning swath of society we are getting a peak at here..reminds me of the town i grew up in.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ry-thinks-may-have-killed-teresa-halbach.html

 

[AZOrange]

I think Avery likely did it, but the brother, ex boyfriend and roommate who didn't report her missing for days are all sketchy as f***.

Regardless of whether Avery did it, there was clearly reasonable doubt. Avery is borderline mentally . . . . . . ed and there's no possible way he could do such a great job cleaning the alleged crime scenes except for the miracle shell and key. They combed those two locations for months and then the two a****** cops that had no business being there found both?! Come on!

But as much as I'm disgusted over Avery's life being stolen from him, what happened to Brendan Dassey is heartbreaking. I started tearing up pretty bad when he asked his mom about WrestleMania. His confession was obviously made up and coerced. And he has 69 IQ. His lawyer and the "investigator" are both despicable human beings. I feel bad but I was happy when I found out his first lawyer has cancer.

Frankly there's too much focus on Avery and not enough on Dassey.

Yeah I agree with this. Guilty or not that case was prime prosecutorial and investigative 101. The citizens should be embarrassed. But then again they don't understand innocent until proven guilty.

 

[AZOrange]

I have to read this whole thing still (watching the game as well) - but it's interesting thus far!

Don't you think it's a tad weird that ALL the crucial evidence happened to be found by the two officers that were NOT working on the case, and were just recently deposed in a lawsuit by Avery? And all that evidence had been overlooked for days...until those two (who were not supposed to be working the case) found it?

I mean, the one Sheriff describes shaking that desk like he was a human blender on the stand (very weird - it's a pretty crappy, flimsy desk), but he didn't manage to knock everything off the top of it? I mean, maybe before they took the picture of the key they picked up other stuff and put it back on/in the desk, but...that seems odd too.

The bullet, the keys, Colborne's odd call to run the plates...the one cop not knowing when he was at the truck. Day/Night...

The 2 killer facts for me were the open vial of blood and the fact that the car was intact. It was 1000 feet from a crusher.

 

[AZOrange]

Right? The ex-boyfriend has this smarmy look on his face, and contorts his face on the stand all the time. That scene where they're arranging the search and speaking to reporters and both keep glancing at each other in the "What do we say next" manner was odd too. Soooooo many odd things in the 10 hours.

Yeah those 3 dudes were weird. And they were awfully connected to the finding of the car...and giving the lady that found it the camera...

 

[OburgOrange]

The 2 killer facts for me were the open vial of blood and the fact that the car was intact. It was 1000 feet from a crusher.

As far as the vial of blood goes, my wife, a nurse, pointed out to me that when you draw blood you have to puncture the rubber seal with a needle like instrument so the blood can be collected in the vial. HOWEVER, the red tape sealing the styrofoam package that contained the vial had been cut. Somebody opened them and then attempted to retape it with scotch tape. Also, someone could have put a needle into the vial right where the hole was and drawn some out.

 

[AZOrange]

As far as the vial of blood goes, my wife, a nurse, pointed out to me that when you draw blood you have to puncture the rubber seal with a needle like instrument so the blood can be collected in the vial. HOWEVER, the red tape sealing the styrofoam package that contained the vial had been cut. Somebody opened them and then attempted to retape it with scotch tape. Also, someone could have put a needle into the vial right where the hole was and drawn some out.

Yeah that's what I meant by open...crazy stuff...

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Yeah that's what I meant by open...crazy stuff...

You're a lawyer right? When Dassey wanted his court appointed lawyer dumped and the judge refused to allow this..is this legal?

It seems to me that the "legal" system in these podunk places is more like a kangaroo court

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I know, one of the things on the list of incriminating crap that was never mentioned was that the police found Pron in his house! OMG!

I also love the whole, "how can you question these men, they're police officers, and they have families..." Uh, because they did it like, uhhhhh, before...

didnt the prosecutor himself get nailed for sexting?