Melo left out of ESPN's top 10 NBA players...again.

[two3zone]

The real crime on this thread is LeBron at #1. How anybody can think that is beyond me. LeBron passed up a game winning shot once. Dirk is still in the league isn't he? 44cuse

I can't tell if you're serious or not.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Fwiw, harden's defense has improved a bit recently. That being said, there are hilarious gifs out there of him acting clueless on d.

 

[44cuse]

I can't tell if you're serious or not.

Well, go look at all the stats and you tell me if I am being serious or not.

Or, you could just link to back half of this thread: http://syracusefan.com/threads/melodramatic-absolutely-owning-lebron.25165/

Remember:
1. The NBA is fixed
2. Advanced Statistics don't matter

44cuse

 

[We Are Syracuse]

SUCH bs... Funny thing is, Melo is the third best player in the NBA... Him or Blake Griffin.. Crap shoot..

 

[tee1222]

This has to be a joke.

James Harden over Melo? Jesus.


I get it he has no post season success. Don't tell that to NY, it'll fall on empty ears.

Has anyone realized? Trueblue asked a question, directed it to the right person, and Jesus answered. I have hope for this season.
Boom!

 

[two3zone]

Well, go look at all the stats and you tell me if I am being serious or not. Or, you could just link to back half of this thread: http://syracusefan.com/threads/melodramatic-absolutely-owning-lebron.25165/ Remember: 1. The NBA is fixed 2. Advanced Statistics don't matter 44cuse

On this board your post honestly could look like you're serious. I've seen worse things posted about him.

 

[44cuse]

On this board your post honestly could look like you're serious. I've seen worse things posted about him.

Trust me, I know. NBA knowledge on this board is pretty weak. That said, it's actually much better than it was.

44cuse

 

[Knicks411]

If anyone thinks Melo is a better passer than Harden; I dunno what to say. Harden is an excellent creator; look at his assist rates. 25% and 27% the last 2 years, Melo has a career high of 21%, and his career is 16%. That's by no means the whole story, but Harden is a much better passer than Melo. And he's a more efficient shooter. But he doesn't use as many possessions, and turns the ball over a little more, and Melo is a very good rebounder. Neither is a good defender, I'd give an edge to Melo, but that's more because Harden is really not very good as opposed to Melo being any good. As I've said, I think the two players are very close.

I agree with some of that .. (except the defense and passing parts). If Harden keeps playing at this level for another 4 years, maybe I'll bite. But not at this stage.

In that case, doing a ranking like this is probably pointless. Harden's numbers the last 2 years since he got a full time role have been awesome; do you really think they don't accurately reflect how good a player he is at this point? in 4 years Melo is going to be way past his prime anyway.

 

[reedny]

If anyone thinks Melo is a better passer than Harden; I dunno what to say. Harden is an excellent creator; look at his assist rates. 25% and 27% the last 2 years, Melo has a career high of 21%, and his career is 16%. That's by no means the whole story, but Harden is a much better passer than Melo. And he's a more efficient shooter. But he doesn't use as many possessions, and turns the ball over a little more, and Melo is a very good rebounder. Neither is a good defender, I'd give an edge to Melo, but that's more because Harden is really not very good as opposed to Melo being any good. As I've said, I think the two players are very close.



In that case, doing a ranking like this is probably pointless. Harden's numbers the last 2 years since he got a full time role have been awesome; do you really think they don't accurately reflect how good a player he is at this point? in 4 years Melo is going to be way past his prime anyway.

In the last 2 years, I absolutely agree. Harden is an elite scorer, and when he's on he's at Melo's level. The problem is .. Harden hasn't been around long enough to make the list over Melo. He's just been on better teams. The Olympics also offer a telling comparison ... in that context (which admittedly is international ball), Melo consistently outplays Harden. It's basically Melo, LeBron and Durrant that are our top 3 dogs.

Sorry but I like Harden .. just don't think he makes the top 10 list over Melo.

 

[Knicks411]

In the last 2 years, I absolutely agree. Harden is an elite scorer, and when he's on he's at Melo's level. The problem is .. Harden hasn't been around long enough to make the list over Melo. He's just been on better teams. The Olympics also offer a telling comparison ... in that context (which admittedly is international ball), Melo consistently outplays Harden. It's basically Melo, LeBron and Durrant that are our top 3 dogs.

Sorry but I like Harden .. just don't think he makes the top 10 list over Melo.

Like I said, I think it's very close between the two so I'm not saying it's a big deal either way. But how long do you need to be around to make a list like this? Harden has been in the league for 5 years, and he's been the focal point of his team for the last 2 years and he's been awesome. If you want to make the argument Melo is a better player, I think it's reasonable, but I don't think the amount of time they've been in the league has anything to do with it. Were you waiting until 2009 to make Melo and Lebron 2 of the top players in the league? Durant has only been in the league a year longer than Harden, did he just play enough to qualify?
I know I've been banging the drum about the olympic thing, but why do we think Melo/Lebron/Durant are the top 3? At the last olympics, Melo was like 6th on the team in minutes played. (Now granted, part of that is because he's playing behind Lebron and Durant). But I think this Melo as an olympic beast narrative has taken on a life of it's own. Here are his game logs from the last olympics
http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/athletes/carmelo-anthony-1
Team USA played 3 combined games against Argentina and Spain, the two best teams in the tournament aside from us. Melo was 11-29 in those 3 games. Not exactly lighting it up. But hey, he killed Nigeria and Tunisia. Maybe I'm making too big a deal about the olympic thing.

 

[Knicks411]

Just thinking about that olympic team; funny to me how much some stuff has changed in just the 2 years since then. Lebron/Melo/KD/Paul are all still awesome, but Kobe was one of the most important players on that team. I believe Blake had to miss the tournament iwth an injury, but he was considered somewhat of an overrated dunks only type guy. Anthony Davis hadn't played a game in the league yet, Harden was still on the Thunder. Deron Williams was on the team! Steph Curry wasn't!

 

[Melancer46]

In somewhat related news, Kawhi Leonard wants a max contract and the Spurs aren't willing to give it to him right now (but they'll almost surely match his max offer sheet that he receives in free agency next year).

 

[Knicks411]

In somewhat related news, Kawhi Leonard wants a max contract and the Spurs aren't willing to give it to him right now (but they'll almost surely match his max offer sheet that he receives in free agency next year).

I guess from their POV, why do it now, right? Maybe he doesn't get the max offer sheet next summer and they get a little bit of a bargain on the deal. At some point Duncan and Manu have to retire and Leonard is going to be their guy, i can't imagine him going anywhere

 

[Melancer46]

I guess from their POV, why do it now, right? Maybe he doesn't get the max offer sheet next summer and they get a little bit of a bargain on the deal. At some point Duncan and Manu have to retire and Leonard is going to be their guy, i can't imagine him going anywhere

I'm guessing they just wanna wait in case he has a gigantic injury or something, but if that doesn't happen, I would guess he'll have multiple max offer sheets on his table. Teams are obsessed with his defense and his physicality. My thinking is that if San Antonio doesn't sign him now and just waits to match an offer sheet, they'll only be locking him up 4 years at the most instead of 5.

 

[Knicks411]

I'm guessing they just wanna wait in case he has a gigantic injury or something, but if that doesn't happen, I would guess he'll have multiple max offer sheets on his table. Teams are obsessed with his defense and his physicality. My thinking is that if San Antonio doesn't sign him now and just waits to match an offer sheet, they'll only be locking him up 4 years at the most instead of 5.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of the 4 vs 5 year thing. Leonard is so good I'm sure he'll get an offer, but you see guys like Bledsoe and Monroe this year really had no market, teams don't like tying up their cap space with those offers.

 

[Melancer46]

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of the 4 vs 5 year thing. Leonard is so good I'm sure he'll get an offer, but you see guys like Bledsoe and Monroe this year really had no market, teams don't like tying up their cap space with those offers.

Yeah, but Monroe's shine has definitely dimmed since Josh Smith got there, and while Bledsoe has tremendous potential, he can't stay healthy, and he's a PG, which the market is just way oversaturated with. Parsons and Hayward both got max deals this off-season at the SF position. There's no way Leonard won't unless he gets hurt like Bledsoe.

I'm positive the Spurs will match it anyways, but yeah, it definitely is interesting. I think the Spurs are viewed as an attractive enough place that they aren't worried about locking Leonard in for that 5th year because they expect he'll want to come back anyways, whereas if it's a team like the Bucks, you kinda have to lock them in when you can so that they can't sign like a 2 year deal so that they can get out sooner or something. The Spurs are just such an elite organization that I think guys like Kawhi will want to return, but who knows?

It'll be interesting to see if Kawhi makes the next step this year. You'd think as one of the few young core pieces on that team that he'll get a ton of minutes relative to his teammates and will have an opportunity to prove that he can be the #1 or #2 option for stretches of games at least. This is a big year for him.

 

[Knicks411]

Heyward is a good one, for some reason I thought he just agreed to his contract with Utah instead of signing the offer sheet. Whatever, you are right, someone will offer Leonard a max deal next summer.

Random thing I'm interested to see; do they push him over 30 minutes per game? The Spurs famously (somewhat) had no one average over 30 MPG last year. He's the one guy on the roster I could see doing it, with his age, etc.

At some point the Spurs will not be good. Right?

 

[Melancer46]

Heyward is a good one, for some reason I thought he just agreed to his contract with Utah instead of signing the offer sheet. Whatever, you are right, someone will offer Leonard a max deal next summer.

Random thing I'm interested to see; do they push him over 30 minutes per game? The Spurs famously (somewhat) had no one average over 30 MPG last year. He's the one guy on the roster I could see doing it, with his age, etc.

At some point the Spurs will not be good. Right?

I think he'll be over 30 this year, and I think the Spurs will pretty much be good until Pop leaves. Then it'll get interesting.

 

[OrangeDW]

Even if Melo is slightly underrated as a defender, he's still a poor defender that can be average when he tries. Harden is a better passer and creator, and relative to their positions, they're about equal in terms of rebounding. It is most definitely close. I mean, Harden was an All-NBA 1st teamer last year. Clearly he is considered an elite player, much like Melo.

Why is "relative to their positions" used for rebounding, but not passing/playmaking? Harden's a guard! He's supposed to be a better passer/playmaker.

I don't agree with lumping them both in as elite scorers and poor defenders either. They are both elite scorers...and Melo is better. They are both not strong defenders...but Melo is better. When the comparison IS fairly close(I think Melo is better, but it's not like they're worlds apart), you can't just lump certain areas together, and dismiss a clear Melo advantage by going "relative to positions"...and then not applying that to passing/creating.

 

[Knicks411]

Why is "relative to their positions" used for rebounding, but not passing/playmaking? Harden's a guard! He's supposed to be a better passer/playmaker.

I don't agree with lumping them both in as elite scorers and poor defenders either. They are both elite scorers...and Melo is better. They are both not strong defenders...but Melo is better. When the comparison IS fairly close(I think Melo is better, but it's not like they're worlds apart), you can't just lump certain areas together, and dismiss a clear Melo advantage by going "relative to positions"...and then not applying that to passing/creating.

I agree on the rebounding thing; Melo is a straight up better rebounder, he should get a bonus for that over Harden. And he is a better defender.
I'm not sure I agree he's a better scorer though. Harden is significantly more efficient, though on less usage. Melo probably has more ways to score, but since Harden gets it done in a more efficient manner, I'm not sure how much that matters. Harden is a consistent 60% true shooting guy; I get it if people don't like the way he does it, but it still counts.

 

[Melancer46]

Why is "relative to their positions" used for rebounding, but not passing/playmaking? Harden's a guard! He's supposed to be a better passer/playmaker.

I don't agree with lumping them both in as elite scorers and poor defenders either. They are both elite scorers...and Melo is better. They are both not strong defenders...but Melo is better. When the comparison IS fairly close(I think Melo is better, but it's not like they're worlds apart), you can't just lump certain areas together, and dismiss a clear Melo advantage by going "relative to positions"...and then not applying that to passing/creating.

Rebounding matters relative to position because Melo is playing inside a good amount of the time on defense, so naturally, he has more opportunity to get rebounds. Playmaking is not relative to position because both players are the dominant ball-handlers on their respective teams. The offense goes through the two of them (if anything, moreso for Melo than for Harden), so they both have equal opportunity to try to create for others.

 

[jordoo]

Harden is a consistent 60% true shooting guy; I get it if people don't like the way he does it, but it still counts.

I think you have hit on the key point here. People especially SU fans watch Melo mix it up inside and on drives while probably not get his fare share of the whistles. Harden jumps into defenders regularly, runs into them and chucks, flops and flails and goes to the line all the time. Some of it is simply the size of the player. I watch Durrant and I feel because of his slight build and really long arms he gets tons of calls that stronger guys like Lebron and Melo do not. That said Durrant's not trying to draw fouls 70% of the time he drives like Harden is, he's simply trying to score. The purposefully playing offense to draw fouls especially at the rate that Harden does it is simply distasteful and the fact that he is rewarded for it by the refs certainly gives his efficiency quite a boost.

 

[Knicks411]

I saw Harden's shot chart last year it's insane. Basically all 3's and shots at the rim. He's like the ideal version of the efficient scorer in that sense. But like I said, I get it, parades to the FT line, especially on ticky tack calls can be boring, but it counts.

 

[jordoo]

I saw Harden's shot chart last year it's insane. Basically all 3's and shots at the rim. He's like the ideal version of the efficient scorer in that sense. But like I said, I get it, parades to the FT line, especially on ticky tack calls can be boring, but it counts.

Not saying it doesn't count just saying that I think you've managed to hit on the main point why a lot of fans particularly SU fans perceive that he is not on Melo's level offensively. Melo has a much more diverse offensive game as far as scoring the ball himself than Harden does, personally from that perspective I think Melo is one of the best 3-4 scorers in the world but there is more to offensive bball than that which I would be forced to evaluate along with defense and team situation if making a top 10 players list.

 

[Melancer46]

I saw Harden's shot chart last year it's insane. Basically all 3's and shots at the rim. He's like the ideal version of the efficient scorer in that sense. But like I said, I get it, parades to the FT line, especially on ticky tack calls can be boring, but it counts.

Yeah. I also think the hilarious videos of Harden's defense have just soured people on his entire game. On another message board that's generally pretty intelligent, it was like 100 people arguing me when I said that Harden is an elite scorer. I don't know how that's even debatable.