Officiating in the Final Four

[pfister1]

Did anyone feel like they called the games yesterday differently than what we have seen most of the season? I felt like the teams either played two really clean games or the officials really let the teams play yesterday. Our front line (DC, Roberson and Lydon) had a total of 5 fouls for the game. Many of the fouls that were called were relatively obvious calls.

I was actually thinking about it in the first game as I was watching. Thinking it would have been great to have those refs for our game because they were letting the teams play. Ended up calling 20 fouls on Ok and just 11 on Nova, but I think OK started piling up in the second half as the game started to slip away.

This is not a complaint about the officiating. I think it was even and I rather like it, really just an observation and was wondering if anyone else shared it?

I'm not sure what to make of Gbinije being the guy who accumulated 5 fouls in a game where the referees seemed to want to eat their whistles. Total of 15 fouls called on us and just 12 on Carolina.

The way we shot free throws yesterday, we should probably be grateful that they didn't call more fouls.

 

[Deano]

Did anyone feel like they called the games yesterday differently than what we have seen most of the season? I felt like the teams either played two really clean games or the officials really let the teams play yesterday. Our front line (DC, Roberson and Lydon) had a total of 5 fouls for the game. Many of the fouls that were called were relatively obvious calls.

This is not a complaint about the officiating. I think it was even and I rather like it, really just an observation and was wondering if anyone else shared it?

I'm not sure what to make of Gbinije being the guy who accumulated 5 fouls in a game where the referees seemed to want to eat their whistles. Total of 15 fouls called on us and just 12 on Carolina.

Lydon and Mail's 2nd foul to me were both BS calls. Thought that took some momentum away from us when that happened.

 

[TheCusian]

Did anyone feel like they called the games yesterday differently than what we have seen most of the season? I felt like the teams either played two really clean games or the officials really let the teams play yesterday. Our front line (DC, Roberson and Lydon) had a total of 5 fouls for the game. Many of the fouls that were called were relatively obvious calls. This is not a complaint about the officiating. I think it was even and I rather like it, really just an observation and was wondering if anyone else shared it? I'm not sure what to make of Gbinije being the guy who accumulated 5 fouls in a game where the referees seemed to want to eat their whistles. Total of 15 fouls called on us and just 12 on Carolina.

I thought that Richardson and G would get called fouls on drives all season - until last night. It could be that UNC plays great D without fouling. Or they let them play.

But it was different.

 

[JoeSU]

I agree. A lot of contact went uncalled. I'd like to know what happened to the supposed "point of emphasis" this season to limit hand checking?

 

[jdubs30]

The one thing they kept calling on us were those slaps at the ball - Lydon, Mali, G all got called it for (multiple times). They weren't calling much else either way, we didn't see many charges/blocks (I know G had one) nor did we see a lot of fouls called on rebounding (Brice had one).

Honestly one of the worst calls of the night was against UNC. I have no idea how Mali got the continuation call on his and-1 layup in the 2nd half (he missed the FT anyway)

 

[Ghost]

The one thing they kept calling on us were those slaps at the ball - Lydon, Mali, G all got called it for (multiple times). They weren't calling much else either way, we didn't see many charges/blocks (I know G had one) nor did we see a lot of fouls called on rebounding (Brice had one).

Honestly one of the worst calls of the night was against UNC. I have no idea how Mali got the continuation call on his and-1 layup in the 2nd half (he missed the FT anyway)

I thought that was a continuation they let go maybe 60% of the time. It didn't seem that odd to me. It wouldn't have seemed odd if they blew it off either. I thought on his next drive to the rim he got shoved in the back, and that should have been a call and they let it go.

Eh, I can't gripe too much. Seems like they called a lot of swipe type fouls on us, let them go a bit on the other end. Thought that was weird - and you saw it with Mali/G ending up in foul trouble. Still, would need to re-watch to see if it was lopsided...not sure enough to lose my mind over it or anything.

I thought the travels on UNC they missed in the early portion of the second half really hurt us. Jackson had two blatant ones, the 3rd foul on Mali (Raf called out the travel on that one), and the trap in the corner where he dragged his foot 23 inches were hard to miss. Oh wellz! The missed free throws hurt us far more than the officiating even if you did think they sucked. And by no means did they suck. Just not sure they helped either, and in a game like this, a little help would have been nice!!!

 

[jdubs30]

I thought that was a continuation they let go maybe 60% of the time. It didn't seem that odd to me. It wouldn't have seemed odd if they blew it off either. I thought on his next drive to the rim he got shoved in the back, and that should have been a call and they let it go.

Eh, I can't gripe too much. Seems like they called a lot of swipe type fouls on us, let them go a bit on the other end. Thought that was weird - and you saw it with Mali/G ending up in foul trouble. Still, would need to re-watch to see if it was lopsided...not sure enough to lose my mind over it or anything.

I thought the travels on UNC they missed in the early portion of the second half really hurt us. Jackson had two blatant ones, the 3rd foul on Mali (Raf called out the travel on that one), and the trap in the corner where he dragged his foot 23 inches were hard to miss. Oh wellz! The missed free throws hurt us far more than the officiating even if you did think they sucked. And by no means did they suck. Just not sure they helped either, and in a game like this, a little help would have been nice!!!

Agreed. Were they the best crew ever? No. Did it cost us the game? No.

You're right about the travels, I forgot about those. At the end of the day, we didn't shoot nearly well enough to win, and the refs had nothing to do with that.

Mali was 7/14 from the field, Cooney had 22, Lydon hit a few shots -- but G going 5/18 and 0/5 from deep was a killer

 

[longislandcuse]

UNC was better so I'm not blaming the loss on this at all but it's not coincidental that Mali's 2nd foul, Lydon's 2nd foul (both bs) and a missed travel on UNC all led to Tar Heel points and occurred during the time that they got separation.

 

[TheCusian]

Agreed. Were they the best crew ever? No. Did it cost us the game? No. You're right about the travels, I forgot about those. At the end of the day, we didn't shoot nearly well enough to win, and the refs had nothing to do with that. Mali was 7/14 from the field, Cooney had 22, Lydon hit a few shots -- but G going 5/18 and 0/5 from deep was a killer

In this case I agree. UNC was better. But they were good enough to beat us straight up with no help from the refs.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Honestly one of the worst calls of the night was against UNC. I have no idea how Mali got the continuation call on his and-1 layup in the 2nd half (he missed the FT anyway)

Mali also stepped on the baseline before losing the ball & there was another play where the ball was off his fingers last but was awarded to us. I also thought Brice Johnson's 2nd foul was pretty weak. All in all, officiating gave neither team an advantage. It was pretty balanced.

 

[Orangeman]

The better team won, no question about that. They also played better, making a really high % of mid-range shots. They also have more talented depth, which is where the officiating comes in...I think the foul calls on Brice Johnson were like the only questionable calls that went our way, and normally that would be good for us, but all that happened was they brought out a guy who shot 75% from the floor last night and the refs boomeranged

Don't forget, the score was tied 16-16 and 18-18, then UNC pulled away. Sure, they made some shots and good plays, but...

UNC played very clean during this period, committing just one foul from like the 14 min mark of the 1H to the 2 min mark. 12 mins, one foul on Brice Johnson, during which Syracuse was whistled for 7 fouls. This was also when UNC pulled away, and you have to assume that of the poor defensive performance was due to 2 fouls on G, Mal, Roberson, and Lydon during the period.

The fouls went from even (2 on Cuse, 3 on UNC) to 8 on Cuse, 4 on UNC during the period. ...it was +2 Syracuse and became +14 UNC during that stretch.

Roy was complaining because that's what coaches do, but there was also an immidiacy effect going on there, becuase once UNC got the double-digit lead the Tarheels suddenly started committing fouls again in the last two mins of the half, picking up 4 including two on Hicks.

Yes, you can argue that it was incumbent on the Orange to take advantage of the trend-shift back in their direction, but basketball is a momentum sport and being down 12-14 is tough to overcome. Those are the numbers. Even...long stretch in favor of UNC...short stretch in favor of SU

Now, I don't want this to sound like sour grapes...the better team who played better won. SU would have had to play great, UNC play poorly and get some "breaks" to win. Unlikely to happen.

BUT, all I'm saying is if you wanted to influence the flow of the game, create runs (just like the UVA run the game prior) but have the numbers evened out in the end, for some reason, that's how you'd do it. Check the play-by-play if you don't believe me.

It's worth noting that many of the fouls called on Syracuse were of the questionable variety during that stretch, with the announcers particularly questioning about 3-4 of the calls in a row "that was all ball" -- Raftery.

Great run, enjoyable three weeks.

 

[kirbivore]

edit: regarding the "reach/slap" fouls; those often occur when a player/team is tired, and I thought we looked tired from about 15 minutes in.

Team had 5 days off, how could they be tired 15 minutes in

 

[Ghost]

Mali also stepped on the baseline before losing the ball & there was another play where the ball was off his fingers last but was awarded to us. I also thought Brice Johnson's 2nd foul was pretty weak. All in all, officiating gave neither team an advantage. It was pretty balanced.

Some of that is tough, and I haven't rewatched the game and it's easier to evaluate after a second viewing because you're less emotionally invested.

However, the Mali play didn't much benefit us. We got the ball back with a few seconds left on the shot clock, and got a shot clock violation. The UNC travels were integral in putting the lead up to 17. I mean, they took advantage, so it's not on them, but those were both plays that really zapped momentum. We just opened the half with a three, instead of a stop, they get to the line, get Mali's 3rd foul, and get two points.

Instead of the pressure D forcing an obvious turnover (that foot slid all the way to the baseline from 2 feet away), they get a kick out and a three. That took the lid off the rim for them instead of a turnover. It's just a feel for what's going on, but they felt big to me.

It just felt like the took the life out of us early in the second half when we were trying to build something. I dont' know, for me it was more about that.

 

[realorange]

Carolina had an answer for everything we did when trying to make a comeback.

Turnovers, poor foul shooting and shot making don't come close to winning especially against a quality team.

 

[Deano]

Carolina had an answer for everything we did when trying to make a comeback.

Turnovers, poor foul shooting and shot making don't come close to winning especially against a quality team.

Poor Foul Shooting was huge. If they had made them in the 1st half I believe we would have only been down about 4, but the inconstancy kept up in the 2nd half.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Mali also stepped on the baseline before losing the ball & there was another play where the ball was off his fingers last but was awarded to us. I also thought Brice Johnson's 2nd foul was pretty weak. All in all, officiating gave neither team an advantage. It was pretty balanced.

He was fouled with a knee to the thigh before he stepped out.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

The better team won, no question about that. They also played better, making a really high % of mid-range shots. They also have more talented depth, which is where the officiating comes in...I think the foul calls on Brice Johnson were like the only questionable calls that went our way, and normally that would be good for us, but all that happened was they brought out a guy who shot 75% from the floor last night and the refs boomeranged

Don't forget, the score was tied 16-16 and 18-18, then UNC pulled away. Sure, they made some shots and good plays, but...

UNC played very clean during this period, committing just one foul from like the 14 min mark of the 1H to the 2 min mark. 12 mins, one foul on Brice Johnson, during which Syracuse was whistled for 7 fouls. This was also when UNC pulled away, and you have to assume that of the poor defensive performance was due to 2 fouls on G, Mal, Roberson, and Lydon during the period.

The fouls went from even (2 on Cuse, 3 on UNC) to 8 on Cuse, 4 on UNC during the period. ...it was +2 Syracuse and became +14 UNC during that stretch.

Roy was complaining because that's what coaches do, but there was also an immidiacy effect going on there, becuase once UNC got the double-digit lead the Tarheels suddenly started committing fouls again in the last two mins of the half, picking up 4 including two on Hicks.

Yes, you can argue that it was incumbent on the Orange to take advantage of the trend-shift back in their direction, but basketball is a momentum sport and being down 12-14 is tough to overcome. Those are the numbers. Even...long stretch in favor of UNC...short stretch in favor of SU

Now, I don't want this to sound like sour grapes...the better team who played better won. SU would have had to play great, UNC play poorly and get some "breaks" to win. Unlikely to happen.

BUT, all I'm saying is if you wanted to influence the flow of the game, create runs (just like the UVA run the game prior) but have the numbers evened out in the end, for some reason, that's how you'd do it. Check the play-by-play if you don't believe me.

It's worth noting that many of the fouls called on Syracuse were of the questionable variety during that stretch, with the announcers particularly questioning about 3-4 of the calls in a row "that was all ball" -- Raftery.

Great run, enjoyable three weeks.

I noticed a couple of questionable fouls that came when we closed to within seven points in the second half, not sure at what exact time in the game. It killed the momentum. But overall the reffing could have been worse and the fact that our FT shooting was poorer than most recent games hurt us.

 

[LennX6]

Agreed. Were they the best crew ever? No. Did it cost us the game? No.

You're right about the travels, I forgot about those. At the end of the day, we didn't shoot nearly well enough to win, and the refs had nothing to do with that.

Mali was 7/14 from the field, Cooney had 22, Lydon hit a few shots -- but G going 5/18 and 0/5 from deep was a killer

The officiating in the tournament felt way better than in the regular season even with the bad Cooney call.

 

[Orangeman]

I noticed a couple of questionable fouls that came when we closed to within seven points in the second half, not sure at what exact time in the game. It killed the momentum. But overall the reffing could have been worse and the fact that our FT shooting was poorer than most recent games hurt us.

Gonzaga also was not charged with a foul in the first 7 mins of that game when they built up their 11 point lead to start the game (I think 3 fouls called on SU).

Overall I don't think the headline officiating was bad...but its more-than-interesting that outside of these three suspicious (to me at least) runs in the Gonzaga (-11); UVA (-15), UNC (-14) during which the foul totals were something like 17-2 against SU, SU played pretty well it seems. There is obviously no way to quantify "non-calls" that SU might have received otherwise during those runs. There were also two high-profile, awful calls at key points: Cooney out of bounds and the Block on G vs. Brogdon when they each had one foul.

Obviously there are lots of factors and I could be dreaming, but IF you were going to influence outcomes, that's how you'd do it.

I checked and there are no similar runs for our opponents where SU got 7-8 min no-foul runs.