OT: Anyone watching this haunting 30 for 30 tonight?

[Eric15]

It's about an incident in 1989 at a soccer game in England in which 96 fans were crushed to death due to improper crowd control and stadium design, and then a subsequent police conspiracy/coverup. I didn't really know anything about this event until now. It's almost like a horror movie.

 

[shandeezy7]

It's about an incident in 1989 at a soccer game in England in which 96 fans were crushed to death due to improper crowd control and stadium design, and then a subsequent police conspiracy/coverup. I didn't really know anything about this event until now. It's almost like a horror movie.

I had to turn on something else. It was way too depressing/disturbing.

 

[PeteCalvin]

I remember that happening. People just kept pushing forward. Still unbelievable.

 

[DeGrozz]

I'll never forget, the first time I ever turned on Fox Soccer Channel (way back in the late 90s or early 00s -- it could have been the 10-year ann'y of the disaster for all I know), there was a young player talking on one of the British sports shows they would broadcast, and he was discussing Hillsborough and how he lost his cousin there. It was before Gerrard was very famous, so I never paid attention to who was talking, and it was just a stupid thing that I remembered.

In 2005, after 'Pool won Champions League, the disaster and Gerrard's relation to it got a lot of press -- I put two and two together and realized who it was talking that first time I turned on FSC.

Knowing what we know now, it would make a fascinating movie -- I'm guessing the 30 for 30 was superb, I'll have to watch it.

 

[jgeorge322]

The 30/30 was excellent but very sad and disturbing as mentioned. It deals a lot with human suffering. The amount of grief displayed by the families is so evident 25 years later.

 

[sufandu]

I have to say I didn't watch it, but I have a question. Were the people crushed because of inadequate crowd control and stadium design or because people take the sport way too seriously and cast aside regard for human life? Regardless of crowd control personnel or stadium design all people had to do to avoid such a tragedy is not push the person in front of them.

 

[Eric15]

I have to say I didn't watch it, but I have a question. Were the people crushed because of inadequate crowd control and stadium design or because people take the sport way too seriously and cast aside regard for human life? Regardless of crowd control personnel or stadium design all people had to do to avoid such a tragedy is not push the person in front of them.

Unquestionably the lack of proper stadium design and proper police control. Your last sentence is how the authorities originally spun it to pass the blame on the fans.

 

[jgeorge322]

I have to say I didn't watch it, but I have a question. Were the people crushed because of inadequate crowd control and stadium design or because people take the sport way too seriously and cast aside regard for human life? Regardless of crowd control personnel or stadium design all people had to do to avoid such a tragedy is not push the person in front of them.

This is what the film is about. The police blamed in on the latter but it was unquestionably the former. The families were denied justice because of a coverup. That being said, i think the police chief duckenfeld was scapegoated a bit.

 

[jgeorge322]

I should add this happened in a section with standing room only where the fans were caged on with only one escape.

 

[sufandu]

Ok, I can understand that, but couldn't it also be as simple as if someone in front of you hasn't moved, you don't try to move?

 

[OttoMets]

For those who liked this (I missed it, unfortunately), check out "Among the Thugs" by Bill Buford. He's an American author who spend some time among English soccer fans throughout Europe after the Hillsborough crush. It's a riveting account with interesting insights into fandom and nationalism.

 

[jgeorge322]

Ok, I can understand that, but couldn't it also be as simple as if someone in front of you hasn't moved, you don't try to move?

what aboout the people behind you who are moving and the people behind them? it's more of a phenomena v a lack of sense and once panic set in, all bets were off. this was a perfect storm combination of ineptitude and bad decision making, an unexpected large crowd, a police chief being fired shortly before the event and being replaced by someone unfit, a lack of an emergency response plan, a poor stadium design including lack of means of egress and standing room pens, improper crowd control and ticketing, and probably a number of other factors. the actions of the crowd are way down the list. im not sure of the finger pointing in the film because this was nothing wonton but there was gross negligence by the stadium, police, and emergency responders.

 

[Millhouse]

what aboout the people behind you who are moving and the people behind them? it's more of a phenomena v a lack of sense and once panic set in, all bets were off. this was a perfect storm combination of ineptitude and bad decision making, an unexpected large crowd, a police chief being fired shortly before the event and being replaced by someone unfit, a lack of an emergency response plan, a poor stadium design including lack of means of egress and standing room pens, improper crowd control and ticketing, and probably a number of other factors. the actions of the crowd are way down the list. im not sure of the finger pointing in the film because this was nothing wonton but there was gross negligence by the stadium, police, and emergency responders.

the people trying to get in the back didn't know what was happening in the front.

i flipped away at all the CPR, wife didn't want to see any more, can't blame her

awful design - the pens were full but no one could see that before trying to get into the pen

 

[creatorsgam]

For those who liked this (I missed it, unfortunately), check out "Among the Thugs" by Bill Buford. He's an American author who spend some time among English soccer fans throughout Europe after the Hillsborough crush. It's a riveting account with interesting insights into fandom and nationalism.

Great recommendation. He not only details his time spent with soccer hooligans, but also explores the reasoning/sociology behind these individuals seeking out violence. A random purchase on a lazy summer day a couple years ago, the book exceeded my expectations. The material transcends the sport of soccer so it is still worth a look for those who do not follow the game.

 

[OttoMets]

Great recommendation. He not only details his time spent with soccer hooligans, but also explores the reasoning/sociology behind these individuals seeking out violence. A random purchase on a lazy summer day a couple years ago, the book exceeded my expectations. The material transcends the sport of soccer so it is still worth a look for those who do not follow the game.

Good point - it's far from a sports book.

I had to read an excerpt for a course on the rise of nationalism in 20th-century Europe about ten years ago. I was so fascinated by it and the class discussion that followed that I bought the book and ripped through it in an afternoon. It's a really neat read, very thought-provoking.

 

[Tcuse]

Once again what does this have to do with SU BBall? -Nothing

 

[creatorsgam]

Once again what does this have to do with SU BBall? -Nothing

Did you miss the "OT?"

 

[dollarbill44]

Ok, I can understand that, but couldn't it also be as simple as if someone in front of you hasn't moved, you don't try to move?

Not in this case. You really need to watch the documentary to fully understand the dynamics of everything: the layout of the stadium, the concourse, the "pens", inexperienced police chief, huge soccer game, late arriving crowd, etc. It really was a situation where several circumstances converged in a manner that caused the disaster.

 

[sufandu]

what aboout the people behind you who are moving and the people behind them? it's more of a phenomena v a lack of sense and once panic set in, all bets were off. this was a perfect storm combination of ineptitude and bad decision making, an unexpected large crowd, a police chief being fired shortly before the event and being replaced by someone unfit, a lack of an emergency response plan, a poor stadium design including lack of means of egress and standing room pens, improper crowd control and ticketing, and probably a number of other factors. the actions of the crowd are way down the list. im not sure of the finger pointing in the film because this was nothing wonton but there was gross negligence by the stadium, police, and emergency responders.

That's exactly my point. When I say "you" I mean everyone. A person doesn't move until the person in front of them moves. Therefore, if I don't move the people behind me don't. A stadium doesn't have to be designed a certain way for this to happen. I was a concert with standing room only where the crowd suddenly surged forward because things were being tossed into the crowd. I wasn't going to contribute to it, so I stayed put. I don't know what happened to the people in front, probably nothing, but if everyone stayed where they were instead of thinking the meaningless object was important there would be no chance of anyone getting hurt.

Would better stadium design with seating for everyone prevent it? Sure. But if people didn't try and crowd ahead, it wouldn't have happened either.

 

[sufandu]

Not in this case. You really need to watch the documentary to fully understand the dynamics of everything: the layout of the stadium, the concourse, the "pens", inexperienced police chief, huge soccer game, late arriving crowd, etc. It really was a situation where several circumstances converged in a manner that caused the disaster.

You're probably right.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Ok, I can understand that, but couldn't it also be as simple as if someone in front of you hasn't moved, you don't try to move?

one of the problems is that people are idiots.

and im serious.

i go to a lot of sporting events and concerts and the same thing happens every time.

as soon as someone gets to the bottom of the stairway or escalator, or walks out of the building...they Fn stop and look for their friends, or now grab their Fn phone and look.

keep Fn moving arsehole, get away from the exit. have a Fn plan. tell people where you will meet. if with kids, be holding their hands or pick them up.

just. keep. moving.

granted this 30/30 is a little different, but damn.

 

[sufandu]

one of the problems is that people are idiots.

and im serious.

i go to a lot of sporting events and concerts and the same thing happens every time.

as soon as someone gets to the bottom of the stairway or escalator, or walks out of the building...they Fn stop and look for their friends, or now grab their Fn phone and look.

keep Fn moving arsehole, get away from the exit. have a Fn plan. tell people where you will meet. if with kids, be holding their hands or pick them up.

just. keep. moving.

granted this 30/30 is a little different, but damn.

I wholehearted agree.

 

[Eric15]

one of the problems is that people are idiots.

and im serious.

i go to a lot of sporting events and concerts and the same thing happens every time.

as soon as someone gets to the bottom of the stairway or escalator, or walks out of the building...they Fn stop and look for their friends, or now grab their Fn phone and look.

keep Fn moving arsehole, get away from the exit. have a Fn plan. tell people where you will meet. if with kids, be holding their hands or pick them up.

just. keep. moving.

granted this 30/30 is a little different, but damn.

Everything you said is true, but it really doesn't apply to this specific disaster.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Everything you said is true, but it really doesn't apply to this specific disaster.

agree. thought i was clear.

if not, let me be clear now.

that was a tragedy, that couldve and shouldve been avoided.

ive been in some situations where you feel trapped like that. im not a light boy and my feet have been off the ground in the past...its scary.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

Not that it is in the same magnitude of tragedy but this reminds me a lot of people getting trampled to death during Black Friday shopping. It's scary how little regard for life some people have in situations like that. (Not trying to say what happened at this game was the fans fault just piggybacking off some points.)