OT - GW Hoops...

[Bayside44]

Out of curiosity I checked the GW 2016-17 BB roster.

I knew their best player last year was a grad of The Landon School of Bethesda which is a very expensive private school.

The GW roster seems to be filled with kids from two types of schools. 1. Private schools and 2. Schools from the deep suburbs.

Included were:
Westhill High, Syracuse, NY ; Jamesville-DeWitt HS, Syracuse, NY; Canisius Prep, Buffalo; St Stephens and Saint Agnes Prep, Alexandria, VA; Worcester Academy. Mass; The Bolles School, Jacksonville, FL; The Hotchkiss School, MA; Annapolis Area Christian School, Annapolis, MD

Quite a difference from the Pitt roster, wouldn't you say?

Looks like a lacrosse team.

 

[kirbivore]

chris webber was pretty tough on the court.

I disagree. Watch him run away from the ball in game 7 of the 2002 WCF.

 

[pfister1]

Out of curiosity I checked the GW 2016-17 BB roster.

I knew their best player last year was a grad of The Landon School of Bethesda which is a very expensive private school.

The GW roster seems to be filled with kids from two types of schools. 1. Private schools and 2. Schools from the deep suburbs.

Included were:
Westhill High, Syracuse, NY ; Jamesville-DeWitt HS, Syracuse, NY; Canisius Prep, Buffalo; St Stephens and Saint Agnes Prep, Alexandria, VA; Worcester Academy. Mass; The Bolles School, Jacksonville, FL; The Hotchkiss School, MA; Annapolis Area Christian School, Annapolis, MD

Quite a difference from the Pitt roster, wouldn't you say?

Actually kind of matches the profile of the student body. Not necessarily elite students, but students with money from elite backgrounds also a heavy international component which isn't necessarily evident from the schools you listed, but which has historically been the case with the GW roster.

 

[Townie72]

Actually kind of matches the profile of the student body. Not necessarily elite students, but students with money from elite backgrounds also a heavy international component which isn't necessarily evident from the schools you listed, but which has historically been the case with the GW roster.

OK.

But how many basketball teams mirror the composition of the student body?

But more importantly and germane is how would a coach get his players to be more physical, tough and tough-minded?

I am very familiar with the IAC in DC that contains schools like Saint Stephens and Landon and I can assure you that this is completely different basketball than you will find played in the DC Inter-High and the PG County leagues or even the DC-based WCAC.

 

[pfister1]

OK.

But how many basketball teams mirror the composition of the student body?

But more importantly and germane is how would a coach get his players to be more physical, tough and tough-minded?

I am very familiar with the IAC in DC that contains schools like Saint Stephens and Landon and I can assure you that this is completely different basketball than you will find played in the DC Inter-High and the PG County leagues or even the DC-based WCAC.

I was just making the observation that the GW roster actually reflects in some ways the makeup of the student body, not necessarily relevant to the larger point. And very few rosters mirror the composition of the student body.

My point I guess, is that if he wants more physical, tough and tough-minded players, he should recruit players that have that potential not kids that are accustomed to being coddled, subject to having their feelings hurt by "tough love" and running to administration as soon as the coach does something they don't like.

But, really my bigger point is that he needs to manage his roster, he built the roster. If he has a bunch of kids that don't fit his coaching style it's on him, not the kids. If he can't relate to his players and resolve conflict within his locker room before they run to the AD and the Washington Post he's not doing his job effectively. It doesn't matter that he may have been effective at Catholic, his schtick may not be working at GW. I am sure you realize it, but Catholic is Division III, much differnt dynamic in terms of the type of athletes, kids and families that you can expect to work with at the two schools.

 

[MSOrange]

I was just making the observation that the GW roster actually reflects in some ways the makeup of the student body, not necessarily relevant to the larger point. And very few rosters mirror the composition of the student body.

My point I guess, is that if he wants more physical, tough and tough-minded players, he should recruit players that have that potential not kids that are accustomed to being coddled, subject to having their feelings hurt by "tough love" and running to administration as soon as the coach does something they don't like.

But, really my bigger point is that he needs to manage his roster, he built the roster. If he has a bunch of kids that don't fit his coaching style it's on him, not the kids. If he can't relate to his players and resolve conflict within his locker room before they run to the AD and the Washington Post he's not doing his job effectively. It doesn't matter that he may have been effective at Catholic, his schtick may not be working at GW.

I agree and was about to type something similar but you said it much better than I would have.

 

[Townie72]

I was just making the observation that the GW roster actually reflects in some ways the makeup of the student body, not necessarily relevant to the larger point. And very few rosters mirror the composition of the student body.

My point I guess, is that if he wants more physical, tough and tough-minded players, he should recruit players that have that potential not kids that are accustomed to being coddled, subject to having their feelings hurt by "tough love" and running to administration as soon as the coach does something they don't like.

But, really my bigger point is that he needs to manage his roster, he built the roster. If he has a bunch of kids that don't fit his coaching style it's on him, not the kids. If he can't relate to his players and resolve conflict within his locker room before they run to the AD and the Washington Post he's not doing his job effectively. It doesn't matter that he may have been effective at Catholic, his schtick may not be working at GW. I am sure you realize it, but Catholic is Division III, much differnt dynamic in terms of the type of athletes, kids and families that you can expect to work with at the two schools.

I'd agree with your third point. He did, after all, recruit them.

But, it may also be true that these kids he recruited didn't really understand how tough DI basketball was going to be and how tough they were going to have to play/be to play it.

I'm not sure about his future. He has, after all, brought a level of success to the GW basketball program they are unaccustomed to.

Now I have an educated opinion about GW that might raise a few hackles. It is hands-down the toughest place to work for and to deal with in DC. The school has what I would call "tough-minded" management. By comparison to the local "softies", GWU is relatively ruthless for a university, that is. They won't roll over in the face of criticism like some others might.

 

[JOC44]

So how was it part of the toughening up process if, as alleged, the coach told the players that the AD (that is, the coach's boss) wanted the videos of team practices not to investigate alleged abusive conduct but to masturbate to them in his office (or, assuming it's untrue, that the AD was having sexual relations with a player on the team)?

 

[Townie72]

So how was it part of the toughening up process if, as alleged, the coach told the players that the AD (that is, the coach's boss) wanted the videos of team practices not to investigate alleged abusive conduct but to masturbate to them in his office (or, assuming it's untrue, that the AD was having s e xual relations with a player on the team)?

I guess I'd have to hear what exactly was said and how it was said to answer those questions. The vagueness of the accusations that you listed could cover just about anything and leaves the reader with a blank check as to how he imagines what happened.

Watch the super-realistic first half of "Full Metal Jacket". As a graduate of Basic Military Training (a.k.a. "Boot Camp"), I can tell you that this accusation of homosexuality is a time dis-honored tradition. I have never really understand why or how it works. But, it certainly is frequently used.

I'll confess that if someone told me that the AD was taping our practice so he could use it to help pleasure himself, I don't think I would have taken that very seriously. I mean, it's preposterous, don't you think?

Coarse? Yep.
Disgusting? Of course.
Believable?

 

[BlackSquirrels]

So how was it part of the toughening up process if, as alleged, the coach told the players that the AD (that is, the coach's boss) wanted the videos of team practices not to investigate alleged abusive conduct but to masturbate to them in his office (or, assuming it's untrue, that the AD was having s e xual relations with a player on the team)?

I'm sure that was just how Lonergan increased his players' self-esteem!

At a practice after a particularly tough loss, he'd say, "Fellas, I know you guys are feeling pretty low, but you're a good looking bunch of guys. In fact, the athletic director watches our practice tapes while he [INSERT YOUR PREFERRED EUPHEMISM HERE]."

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I disagree. Watch him run away from the ball in game 7 of the 2002 WCF.

that was one play. webber was as vicious and physical and a rebounder as you will ever see.

 

[Townie72]

I'm sure that was just how Lonergan increased his players' self-esteem!

At a practice after a particularly tough loss, he'd say, "Fellas, I know you guys are feeling pretty low, but you're a good looking bunch of guys. In fact, the athletic director watches our practice tapes while he [INSERT YOUR PREFERRED EUPHEMISM HERE]."

I don't want to over-defend the guy, but at the same time this is his career, his life we are talking about. I'd want to make damn sure that I got both sides of the story here before I joined the lynch mob.

I read the WaPo article and I didn't see the exchange you described above. Is this a hypothetical situation, your imagination working overtime? If it is, then you ought to make that more clear.

And finally, not everything is about building "self-esteem". From Lonergan's side it sounds to me that maybe he felt they had too much self-esteem.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I'm sure that was just how Lonergan increased his players' self-esteem!

At a practice after a particularly tough loss, he'd say, "Fellas, I know you guys are feeling pretty low, but you're a good looking bunch of guys. In fact, the athletic director watches our practice tapes while he [INSERT YOUR PREFERRED EUPHEMISM HERE]."

Masters his domain?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Sounds to me --- from the accusations --- that he did just the opposite from what you are suggesting he did recruiting wise. Sounds like he recruited a bunch of "soft" kids and was using this as a way to toughen them up.

At the Prep school here in DC I follow most, the coaches of the freshman team spend the first few practices trying to instill the toughness the incoming frosh did not get in years of camps and organized league basketball. It's a toughness, a physicality they would have gotten if they had played a lot of "playground" basketball, which they have not.

So they insist the kids play several scrimmages with no rules. If someone drives the basket, you do whatever it takes to stop him.

Now of course, they didn't want them to play this way, but at the same time they don't want them to be ultra-soft.

It's what Pete Carrill was talking about when he said he didn't recruit kids from schools with "Country Day" in their name.

No, he's a straight up douchebag. He used to be the coach up here and I knew him a bit, but knew his now-ex-wife well enough (she used to play hoops with us on Tuesday night - crafty little point guard). He has been going through a nasty divorce the last year or so, maybe that played into him being even more acerbic than usual.

I'll relay a little story from one of the other coaches (not from UVM) that I know up here. One night the UVM team didn't play as well as he thought they should. He made the players come in for an unscheduled practice the next day and throughout the 'practice' tore them a new one (as it were) and repeatedly said the team cost him more in his next job with their crappy play the night before. I always try to think of what I would do as a parent of one of those players, and I would be more than pissed with that 'motivation' you seem to be applauding above. I'm not naive enough to think UVM is a goal job, but you don't make it so obvious to your kids that you think you are better than them. Maybe he was, but he sure doesn't act like it.

 

[dasher]

No, he's a straight up douchebag. He used to be the coach up here and I knew him a bit, but knew his now-ex-wife well enough (she used to play hoops with us on Tuesday night - crafty little point guard). He has been going through a nasty divorce the last year or so, maybe that played into him being even more acerbic than usual.

I'll relay a little story from one of the other coaches (not from UVM) that I know up here. One night the UVM team didn't play as well as he thought they should. He made the players come in for an unscheduled practice the next day and throughout the 'practice' tore them a new one (as it were) and repeatedly said the team cost him more in his next job with their crappy play the night before. I always try to think of what I would do as a parent of one of those players, and I would be more than pissed with that 'motivation' you seem to be applauding above. I'm not naive enough to think UVM is a goal job, but you don't make it so obvious to your kids that you think you are better than them. Maybe he was, but he sure doesn't act like it.

There is a reason that crap has gone out of style. One, it doesn't work anymore.

 

[Townie72]

No, he's a straight up douchebag. He used to be the coach up here and I knew him a bit, but knew his now-ex-wife well enough (she used to play hoops with us on Tuesday night - crafty little point guard). He has been going through a nasty divorce the last year or so, maybe that played into him being even more acerbic than usual.

I'll relay a little story from one of the other coaches (not from UVM) that I know up here. One night the UVM team didn't play as well as he thought they should. He made the players come in for an unscheduled practice the next day and throughout the 'practice' tore them a new one (as it were) and repeatedly said the team cost him more in his next job with their crappy play the night before. I always try to think of what I would do as a parent of one of those players, and I would be more than pissed with that 'motivation' you seem to be applauding above. I'm not naive enough to think UVM is a goal job, but you don't make it so obvious to your kids that you think you are better than them. Maybe he was, but he sure doesn't act like it.

That's what they call in the courts, "Hearsay evidence".

But not to quibble. Even if this is true --- and it very may well be true --- doesn't it seem remarkably ineffective as an appeal or threat or whatever?

Why would the UVM players care about his next job? Or was the idea that he assumed they all liked him so much that they would should or would be concerned about his next job?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

That's what they call in the courts, "Hearsay evidence".

But not to quibble. Even if this is true --- and it very may well be true --- doesn't it seem remarkably ineffective as an appeal or threat or whatever?

Why would the UVM players care about his next job? Or was the idea that he assumed they all liked him so much that they would should or would be concerned about his next job?

Only because if they didn't, they would feel the brunt of his anger. You seem to be looking for logic where there is none.

 

[Townie72]

Only because if they didn't, they would feel the brunt of his anger. You seem to be looking for logic where there is none.

Let's suppose your boss gathered you and you co-workers together and said, "If you don't improve the results here, it's going to negatively affect my career."

It's like Lonergan was saying --- or might have been saying --- that your job here on the BB team at UVM is to advance my career. And if you don't help do that, there's going to be a price to pay.

Although I did know a manager once who told his troops, "If this program fails, there is going to be a shot fired. It's going to hit me in the shoulder. It'll hurt, but I'll survive. But the bullet will continue on and hit you lot square in the chests."

The manager was explaining the facts of corporate life to his group, as he understood them. (He was eventually fired because no one would work for him.)

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Let's suppose your boss gathered you and you co-workers together and said, "If you don't improve the results here, it's going to negatively affect my career."

It's like Lonergan was saying --- or might have been saying --- that your job here on the BB team at UVM is to advance my career. And if you don't help do that, there's going to be a price to pay.

Although I did know a manager once who told his troops, "If this program fails, there is going to be a shot fired. It's going to hit me in the shoulder. It'll hurt, but I'll survive. But the bullet will continue on and hit you lot square in the chests."

The manager was explaining the facts of corporate life to his group, as he understood them. (He was eventually fired because no one would work for him.)

Feel free to rationalize this all you like. If you as my boss plan on taking me along with you as you advance through your career, I'll ride your coattails and do whatever I can to help you. This was nothing like that. These kids know they can't transfer and play for Mike at another situation. It's like your boss saying "if you don't improve the results here, it's going to negatively affect my career at my next company, and no, I have no plans to take you along with me." At that point, unless you are in line to get the bosses job, you would likely stop listening to the boss altogether. He gone.

 

[Townie72]

Feel free to rationalize this all you like. If you as my boss plan on taking me along with you as you advance through your career, I'll ride your coattails and do whatever I can to help you. This was nothing like that. These kids know they can't transfer and play for Mike at another situation. It's like your boss saying "if you don't improve the results here, it's going to negatively affect my career at my next company, and no, I have no plans to take you along with me." At that point, unless you are in line to get the bosses job, you would likely stop listening to the boss altogether. He gone.

Exactly!

That's why it makes no sense. It's counter-productive as a motivational tool.

If he said it and if he said it as one might imagine (and not as a joke) then he appears to be de-motivating the team.

He's been pretty successful at a number of levels. He took CUA to heights never imagined. GW has been very good. And yet, he's a fool?

It's not adding up for me.

 

[Briancuse]

I think there is no doubt that people are soft and more sensitive than they ever have been. I'm not supporting the coaches behavior just pointing out what is becoming the norm for our society. I can see where it comes from as I have 3 children in varies sports and activities. Its an insane world when even the worst of efforts and talents are praised to make the individual feel good. Isn't it more satisfying to receive real well deserved praise?

No question, its a completely different world. Back when I played football in high school we used to have triple sessions during the summer,and needing water was considered a sign of weakness, that could never happen today.

 

[RoysRunts]

There is a reason that crap has gone out of style. One, it doesn't work anymore.

Your Just talking about College Sports right? if not ask permission to go to Paris Island and ask a recruit his opinion about his D.I.