Ot: the love/wiggins deal | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Ot: the love/wiggins deal

Love's lack of defense is a big focus in this thread, for some reason.

If he was an average player, sure. But he was third in "win shares" last year behind James and Durant. You know who is well known for his apparent lack of defense by many NBA followers? Our own Carmelo Anthony.

My point is... Love will help win you significantly more games than he will lose you.

Yes, it's not a straight up trade, but again, I don't think it's close at all.
 
Love's lack of defense is a big focus in this thread, for some reason.

If he was an average player, sure. But he was third in "win shares" last year behind James and Durant. You know who is well known for his apparent lack of defense by many NBA followers? Our own Carmelo Anthony.

My point is... Love will help win you significantly more games than he will lose you.

Yes, it's not a straight up trade, but again, I don't think it's close at all.
Yeah I mean Roy Hibbert and Tim Duncan have been shutdown by that defensive shutdown master big guy Chris Bosh. Kevin Love has literally had no support on the TWolves. Rubio shoots worse than Rondo and Pekovic is just solid. Love in the East puts Cleveland in the Finals IMO.
 
I still don't think Cleveland should make the trade, but one thing to consider is the salary cap moving forwards. Some believe that with the new TV deal, the salary cap will sky rocket up to $80 million in the next two years. If that actually happens and they get Love to sign now for $20 million or so, suddenly they'd still have an okay amount of cap space to fill out the rest of the roster.
 
I think that James has a 2 year contract but the opt out is after the first AND second years...not just the second.
 
I always think it's funny how much hype Love gets, where Carmelo gets absolutely picked apart for not being the greatest player in the history of ESPN/Western Civilization(there, I worked in igor and Bill Walton).

Love has had injury problems, doesn't defend well, and has not made the playoffs once. He's not going to be getting 25 ppg playing with Lebron and Kyrie. So if he's scoring 17 or so...that's not as big of a deal when he's giving up that many too. And I realize that he is a very good shooter, but something about jump shooting big men who aren't that good at scoring in the low blocks makes me not trust them in games that matter.

Personally I don't think Love is better than Bosh(who it's now very popular to criticize and act like he's not that good...Love may get the same treatment once people actually watch him play ). Bosh had the great looking numbers in Toronto too, and he actually led them to the playoffs.

Trading for Love does not = automatic title for Cleveland. I think it depends on how good Wiggins actually is right now(because they are in win now mode). They don't need him to handle the ball or be a playmaker(which seem to be weaknesses)...just a finisher and defender who can knock down jumpers. I think he can do that, personally and I think he's a great fit for them...with the potential to develop into much more.
NBA Basketball has always amazed me. If you are not Michael Jordan, you suck. Look how even LeBron is picked to shreds. It even happens retroactively. Oscar Robertson , now we find out was selfish. Wilt didn't win enough titles.
 
Off the charts passing = 2.5 assists per game for career(4.4 last year which is very good though). He's good but...off the charts?

Bosh was 10-11 rebounds per game in Toronto, by the way. If he's a 6'10 shooting guard(he shoots better %'s from the floor than Love, easily too) what is Love?

Love's numbers will not be the same in Cleveland, and his game will be picked apart the same way Bosh's now is, is my point(they are both very good players for the record).

There's something to be said for that about Bosh; he was basically forced to play outside more because of what Miami wanted to do. I think his numbers will be much better as he gets to post up a little more this year.

Bosh is a very good jump shooting big man, but I think Love is better. Love can really spread you all the way out to the 3 point line.

There are reasons to think it wouldn't work; Love is not a great defender, that will be an issue. But he's 26 years old, so he's going to be a very good player for a while. Wiggins might be awesome, or he might not be. You've got the best player in the planet in his prime; I'm going to trade the 20 year old who might be awesome in a few years (and I'm not convinced he'll be a great defender from the word go; not a lot of rookies are) for a 26 year old who is already awesome every time.
 
Age-old conundrum in today's NBA: Bird in the hand vs two in the bush.
Do you take the young guy(s) w/ "upside" and potential, or the proven player who's a known commodity?

That being said...to have the best player in the league, a top 7 PG, a top 15 asset in Love, and the desire/ability to WIN NOW???

picard.jpg
 
Age-old conundrum in today's NBA: Bird in the hand vs two in the bush.
Do you take the young guy(s) w/ "upside" and potential, or the proven player who's a known commodity?

That being said...to have the best player in the league, a top 7 PG, a top 15 asset in Love, and the desire/ability to WIN NOW???

View attachment 18467
Depends if you're looking long term. With Lebron and kyrie, you have a rare chance to go with wiggins and possibly win short AND long term. It could set that team up as something special for the rest of Gilbert's life. The degree of risk is manageable (you can get great free agents to take discounts to play with Lebron). Roll with wiggins.
 
Again people who love Wiggins give me your player comps which would be his floor and the ceiling for the kid.

I don't think Wiggins is close to being an all-star for 2 -3 years. His freshman year at Kansas did not scream immediate impact player in the NBA.
 
Alsacs said:
Again people who love Wiggins give me your player comps which would be his floor and the ceiling for the kid. I don't think Wiggins is close to being an all-star for 2 -3 years. His freshman year at Kansas did not scream immediate impact player in the NBA.

Why did the Cavs make him the #1 overall pick?
 
Why did the Cavs make him the #1 overall pick?

Do you remember a thing called Joel Embiid getting hurt?

I mean its obvious I can't say for a fact, but 1. Embiid broke his foot and needed surgery. Cleveland would have taken Embiid without that injury. 2. Parker wanted to play for Milwaukee because its close to his Chicago hometown. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-prefers-bucks-might-have-tanked-cavs-workout

I mean no Embiid injury he goes #1. Wiggins was overrated before he entered college. He was suppose to be the best prospect since Lebron and he was no such thing. Wiggins is not a sure thing to be a superstar. He has a lot of upside, but Embiid was voted the Big XII defender of the year over Wiggins so his "lock down" defending wasn't better than Embiid's rim protecting.
 
The reasons why I wouldn't make the trade if I'm Cleveland:

1. To make the salaries work, they'd likely be getting rid of much more than just Wiggins.
2. Even if they found a way to simply deal Wiggins and take on Love without giving up more, they'd probably lose most of their young players over the next year or two when they become free agents and Cleveland can no longer afford them.

To me, they have enough star power already with LeBron and Kyrie. Having a great team around them is much more important than having a 3rd great player and nothing else IMO.
Miami's first year, even when they lost in the Finals, was a bit clunky at times with Joel Anthony and a rookie Mario Chalmers filling out the lineup.
Again people who love Wiggins give me your player comps which would be his floor and the ceiling for the kid.

I don't think Wiggins is close to being an all-star for 2 -3 years. His freshman year at Kansas did not scream immediate impact player in the NBA.
I think he could be what Rodney McCray was to the Olajuwon Rockets...this year.
 
Alsacs said:
Do you remember a thing called Joel Embiid getting hurt? I mean its obvious I can't say for a fact, but 1. Embiid broke his foot and needed surgery. Cleveland would have taken Embiid without that injury. 2. Parker wanted to play for Milwaukee because its close to his Chicago hometown. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-prefers-bucks-might-have-tanked-cavs-workout I mean no Embiid injury he goes #1. Wiggins was overrated before he entered college. He was suppose to be the best prospect since Lebron and he was no such thing. Wiggins is not a sure thing to be a superstar. He has a lot of upside, but Embiid was voted the Big XII defender of the year over Wiggins so his "lock down" defending wasn't better than Embiid's rim protecting.

Ok, Embiid got hurt. If he doesn't he probably goes 1, but maybe not. Even if he did, Wiggins could go 2. No shame in that. You talk like the NBA GM's are stupid to see Wiggins as a stud.
 
Ok, Embiid got hurt. If he doesn't he probably goes 1, but maybe not. Even if he did, Wiggins could go 2. No shame in that. You talk like the NBA GM's are stupid to see Wiggins as a stud.
I never said NBA GMs are stupid for liking Wiggins. I am saying if your the Cleveland Cavs and you want to contend for an NBA title in the next 3 years you have a better chance to win one win Kevin Love on your team than with Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a top 10 protected first round draft pick.
I have been saying Wiggins has Paul George upside if he develops but he is worth giving up as the main piece to get a top 15 player in his prime to win now while Lebron is younger and can win now.
 
Miami's first year, even when they lost in the Finals, was a bit clunky at times with Joel Anthony and a rookie Mario Chalmers filling out the lineup.

I think he could be what Rodney McCray was to the Olajuwon Rockets...this year.
If he McCray next year I would think if I was Cleveland i do the trade. McCray wasn't anything more than a role player behind Hakeem,Maxwell,Horry,Smith,Cassell on those championship Rocket teams
 
If he McCray next year I would think if I was Cleveland i do the trade. McCray wasn't anything more than a role player behind Hakeem,Maxwell,Horry,Smith,Cassell on those championship Rocket teams

McCray was long gone by the time the Rockets won those titles.
 
McCray was long gone by the time the Rockets won those titles.
Makes sense because I remember the name McCray but didn't remember him on those champion Rocket teams.
 
Makes sense because I remember the name McCray but didn't remember him on those champion Rocket teams.

He was on the Sampson/Hakeem teams. They lost to the Lakers in the finals and was a very solid contributor.
 
I never said NBA GMs are stupid for liking Wiggins. I am saying if your the Cleveland Cavs and you want to contend for an NBA title in the next 3 years you have a better chance to win one win Kevin Love on your team than with Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a top 10 protected first round draft pick.
I have been saying Wiggins has Paul George upside if he develops but he is worth giving up as the main piece to get a top 15 player in his prime to win now while Lebron is younger and can win now.

This is why Cleveland wouldn't be dumb to make the trade. Wiggins could be a future superstar, while Love is one now. Bennett doesn't hold as much value to the Cavs if they get Love because he'd be the #3 PF behind Love and Thompson.

As much as everyone in the media wanted to tell you this year's draft was better than 2003, that might be due to the depth of the 1st round and not having 4 future HOF guys like 03. It also shows how bad NBA Drafts have been and why the NBA is likely moving to focus on a true minor league.
 
Wiggins is way better than Paul George upside. He will be a star in the NBA. I think trading him and Bennett is a huge mistake.
 
This is why Cleveland wouldn't be dumb to make the trade. Wiggins could be a future superstar, while Love is one now. Bennett doesn't hold as much value to the Cavs if they get Love because he'd be the #3 PF behind Love and Thompson.

As much as everyone in the media wanted to tell you this year's draft was better than 2003, that might be due to the depth of the 1st round and not having 4 future HOF guys like 03. It also shows how bad NBA Drafts have been and why the NBA is likely moving to focus on a true minor league.
I don't think it's "dumb" as much as small time thinking. It doesn't feel strategic. Wiggins will not lose his value for a couple years, but his value may go way up. You can always trade him. You've gotta see what you have there. If he fulfills his mean expectations, you have an unbelievably dynamic team, with flexibility and that will be a destination. I don't understand the impatience to make the Love move when that fan base has had to be patient since the Daugherty/Price era. They are MUCH better than Lebron's best Cav team right now. Let Wiggins play out.
 
I think the mean projection for Wiggins is that he's a good NBA player. Not sure that it's a star. Not to say that he can't turn into one, but I don't think you're trading Anthony Davis. I think it's much more likely than not that Wiggins never becomes as good of a player as Kevin Love is right now. The argument that you create more flexibility with Wiggins financially is a fair one.

I don't think it's "dumb" as much as small time thinking. It doesn't feel strategic. Wiggins will not lose his value for a couple years, but his value may go way up. You can always trade him. You've gotta see what you have there. If he fulfills his mean expectations, you have an unbelievably dynamic team, with flexibility and that will be a destination. I don't understand the impatience to make the Love move when that fan base has had to be patient since the Daugherty/Price era. They are MUCH better than Lebron's best Cav team right now. Let Wiggins play out.

Because you've got the best player in the world and he's not getting any younger. He's not old, but who knows for how many more years just having Lebron guarantees you a good chance of a title. Might be 3 or 4 years.
 
Wiggins is way better than Paul George upside. He will be a star in the NBA. I think trading him and Bennett is a huge mistake.
Have you looked at Paul George before you made this comment? George is a top 10 player in the NBA right now. He is young and good defensively. If your saying Wiggins upside is better than George you are putting higher expectations than the scouts are.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/r...l-scouts-on-wiggins-randle-embiid-and-parker/
"I think Embiid is the only difference-maker in the group. I like Parker and Wiggins, but if they are your best player, you are going to be in the lottery every year."
Scout 1: Don’t trust his shot or his ball skills. Can’t go left. There is no “ you” to him. Kobe’s like, “ you, I’m better than you.” Where was that? I think he is a content player. That’s not Bill Self’s fault — he didn’t tell him not to shoot.

He can be your third-best player, but not your best. Say he goes to Orlando. What’s he going to do as an offensive player? Shoot them to more wins? He has one of the best second/third jumps I’ve ever seen and he’ll have some “ … look at that” moments. But that’s not his personality.

He can be an elite defender. He can guard 1-3s.

Wiggins has offensive holes in his game — no dribble, no pass, streaky shooter. His sex appeal is only his athleticism. I’m not saying he’s one of these athletes that comes into the league and doesn’t know how to play basketball, but he’s behind the other three guys on my board.

Scout 2: I think in the draft, if Embiid is healthy, Wiggins goes no. 3. He will be lost in an NBA half-court offense. He is great in transition, but he has no ball skills. All right hand, no idea what to do without the ball. He struggles with confidence. He actually reminds me more of Gerald Green than any of these studs he’s compared to.

He’s an erratic shooter and has no plan when attacking the rim. He will be easy to coach against with his limited game right now. Needs to find out what playing hard is. He tries hard, but I don’t see that second gear. He would scare me as your franchise’s no. 1 pick, with all the stuff that will go along with being no. 1 in this class. Is he really a face of the franchise?

Defensively he can be a stopper right away. A lot of these coaches want to break down these young guys and limit their minutes because they don’t trust them defensively. With him you can play him the minutes you need to develop him because, defensively, he’s already there.

Scout 3: In general, interesting kid. In fairness to him he played in a very restricted system at Kansas. All interchangeable parts with designated spots, a lot of structure. When he got the ball, there wasn’t a lot of room to create. He didn’t force things, dealt with it well, but sometimes it hurt his rep. Not anywhere near ready, mentally, to take things over, which is unfair to say at this stage. Game isn’t to the level of his athleticism. Humble, coachable, a positive kid, all good things.

Needs go-to moves. He doesn’t have them yet. He has a high dribble. This is normal for a kid his age. Even Kobe and T-Mac struggled out of high school with go-to moves.

He needs to add a whole bunch of other stuff to be the scorer people think he can be. He needs to forget shooting 3s. His shot isn’t great, but it isn’t broken. It’s not as bad as Kidd-Gilchrist where you say, “Where do we start?”

Great natural movement. An NBA coach can still play him right away because he can defend. He defends the wings in isolation, which is extremely valuable. Physically he can do this right away.


This one is tough. I’ve changed my mind about him versus Parker a few times this season. He isn’t close to being as polished as Parker is on offense. So, the simple solution is to take Parker, right? Nope, it doesn’t work that way.

Athletically, he is off the charts, but it doesn’t do much for you if you can’t dribble. Right now, he can’t. The times he does get free on a drive, he doesn’t finish nearly as much as he should. It’s baffling; he gets by his man, beats the help, and then screws up the layup.

His personality comes off as timid. It’s not what you want from a guy that is supposed to be your leading scorer in a few years. It is worth mentioning that he played on a team that had two other scorers in Wayne Selden and Perry Ellis, plus the emergence of Embiid and Naadir Tharpe, who was supposed to be a point guard. There weren’t many shots to go around and he still dropped 17 ppg.

When LaMarcus Aldridge was coming out of Texas, I heard a lot of the same stuff: “timid” “doesn’t want it,” etc. I’d go back and look at the tape, and it was obvious Aldridge was playing with selfish guards who didn’t get him the ball, so it’s something to think about. I honestly have no idea if Wiggins is just a great athlete with a passive personality, or the next Tracy McGrady.

The thing about the draft that drives fans crazy is when a GM takes someone based on potential, but think about it this way: Sure, you could take a guy who just finished his junior year and put up big numbers. But the reason teams reach is because they need a star in this league. It’s why the Parker-Wiggins debate is frustrating for people. “If Parker is better, why take Wiggins?” It’s easy. Every front office will ask themselves the same question on draft night: “Can this guy grow, become an All-Star in our league?” If the answer is even close to a yes, the team will go for it. Role players aren’t winning you anything?


I mean I like Wiggins, but his isn't as great as people are making him out to be. Love helps you win for the next 5-6 years.
 
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Because you've got the best player in the world and he's not getting any younger. He's not old, but who knows for how many more years just having Lebron guarantees you a good chance of a title. Might be 3 or 4 years.

This is the reason I'd pull the trigger. I think it's very strategic because with Lebron still the best player in the league, you are putting together your best chance to win now.

As bad as Miami looked at the end of the Finals, they were really close to taking the first 2 games on the road in SA. Adding a guy like Love to Lebron/Irving would give Cleveland as good a top 3 as anyone in the league. Sure they would still have some holes to fill, but it's much easier to cover up those if you've got the potential of having 3 20+ppg scorers.
 
It's really risky having 3 top paid players, where 2 of the 3 are bottom 5 at their position amongst starters in terms of defence. Not championship material.

Irving is the real issue here, not Love. Cleveland would be so much better with a non descript 3+D point guard rather than a turnstile at the point position whose role will be diminished.

If there was a way to somehow move Irving in a 3 way deal with all the other firsts, Bennett. Waiters to get Love, the Cavs would be SO much better.

Wiggins will be top defender at his position -- not right away -- but well above average come playoff time.
 

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