Ot: the love/wiggins deal

[Knicks411]

This is the reason I'd pull the trigger. I think it's very strategic because with Lebron still the best player in the league, you are putting together your best chance to win now.

As bad as Miami looked at the end of the Finals, they were really close to taking the first 2 games on the road in SA. Adding a guy like Love to Lebron/Irving would give Cleveland as good a top 3 as anyone in the league. Sure they would still have some holes to fill, but it's much easier to cover up those if you've got the potential of having 3 20+ppg scorers.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I am not really sure those finals were a referendum on the "big 3 model", so to speak. For a few reasons, chief among them that the big 3 in Miami played together for 4 seasons, made the finals all 4 years, and won 2 titles. Not too bad.

Also, Wade was a shell of the old Wade. I wouldn't except Love and Irving (and i don't love irving as a player, but he's good) to wear down like that in June.

 

[Alsacs]

This is the reason I'd pull the trigger. I think it's very strategic because with Lebron still the best player in the league, you are putting together your best chance to win now.

As bad as Miami looked at the end of the Finals, they were really close to taking the first 2 games on the road in SA. Adding a guy like Love to Lebron/Irving would give Cleveland as good a top 3 as anyone in the league. Sure they would still have some holes to fill, but it's much easier to cover up those if you've got the potential of having 3 20+ppg scorers.

I mean this is correct. Miami outplayed San Antonio for 3 quarters in game 1. Then Lebron cramped out and the better team won. Also, people are just leaving out San Antonio played a PERFECT first half game 3 and against any other team but the Spurs the Heat probably come back and win in the second half. I was rooting for the Spurs but I was nervious in the 2nd half of game 3. Games 4 and 5 it was Lebron on 5.

 

[Alsacs]

It's really risky having 3 top paid players, where 2 of the 3 are bottom 5 at their position amongst starters in terms of defence. Not championship material.

Irving is the real issue here, not Love. Cleveland would be so much better with a non descript 3+D point guard rather than a turnstile at the point position whose role will be diminished.

If there was a way to somehow move Irving in a 3 way deal with all the other firsts, Bennett. Waiters to get Love, the Cavs would be SO much better.

Wiggins will be top defender at his position -- not right away -- but well above average come playoff time.

Ginobili and Parker aren't exactly decent defenders. Tim Duncan is elite though.

Also, I don't think Irving is as bad as your implying. I highly doubt Cleveland moves Irving but they could get Rondo for him.

 

[jncuse]

Ginobili and Parker aren't exactly decent defenders. Tim Duncan is elite though.

Also, I don't think Irving is as bad as your implying. I highly doubt Cleveland moves Irving but they could get Rondo for him.

Irving is terrible defensively compared to Parker. Not even close. Maybe the chance of winning will get his head out of his ass.

 

[Alsacs]

Irving is terrible defensively compared to Parker. Not even close. Maybe the chance of winning will get his head out of his ass.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pghttp://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg

Hollinger's PER rankings factor in offense and defense. I don't think Irving is as bad you think he finished 6th in the NBA PGs at PER. He is by no means a lockdown defender, but isn't as bad your imply.

 

[Knicks411]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg

Hollinger's PER rankings factor in offense and defense. I don't think Irving is as bad you think he finished 6th in the NBA PGs at PER. He is by no means a lockdown defender, but isn't as bad your imply.

Unless they changed the fomrula, PER is solely based on stuff in the box score, no? So basically steals, blocks, etc.

 

[Alsacs]

Unless they changed the fomrula, PER is solely based on stuff in the box score, no? So basically steals, blocks, etc.

From Hollinger
To generate PER, I created formulas -- outlined in tortuous detail in my book "Pro Basketball Forecast" -- that return a value for each of a player's accomplishments. That includes positive accomplishments such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls.
Two important things to remember about PER are that it's per-minute and is pace-adjusted.

Because it's a per-minute measure, it allows us to compare, say, Steve Blake and Derek Fisher, even though there is a disparity in their minutes played.

I also adjust each player's rating for his team's pace, so that players on a slow-paced team like Detroit aren't penalized just because their team has fewer possessions than a fast-paced team such as Golden State.

My point is that Irving isn't a great defender, but defensive categories are factored in. He isn't a bottom 5 PG defensively.

Felton, Calderon,Blake, Burke,Lin are worse I am sure I could find more if I thought it out.

 

[Knicks411]

From Hollinger
To generate PER, I created formulas -- outlined in tortuous detail in my book "Pro Basketball Forecast" -- that return a value for each of a player's accomplishments. That includes positive accomplishments such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls.
Two important things to remember about PER are that it's per-minute and is pace-adjusted.

Because it's a per-minute measure, it allows us to compare, say, Steve Blake and Derek Fisher, even though there is a disparity in their minutes played.

I also adjust each player's rating for his team's pace, so that players on a slow-paced team like Detroit aren't penalized just because their team has fewer possessions than a fast-paced team such as Golden State.

My point is that Irving isn't a great defender, but defensive categories are factored in. He isn't a bottom 5 PG defensively.

Felton, Calderon,Blake, Burke,Lin are worse I am sure I could find more if I thought it out.

I'm not sure he's bottom 5, but PER isn't going to tell you much of anything aobut his defense.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I actually think the reason why you want to hang on to Wiggins is because he isn't a lead dog and is a complimentary personality to alpha dog players. That scout said if Wiggins is your best player you're in the lottery every year. Well, let's assume that's true - on the Cavs he'd be their 3rd or 4th best player. I think that's the right place for him, and the right place for the Cavs. If he goes to Minnesota he becomes another guy that wastes out there. If he stays with the Cavs, he's in contention to be the greatest sidekick of all time.

 

[Alsacs]

I am going to channel my inner Hubie Brown because who doesn't love how he talks.

Okay, your Lebron James you have gone back to Cleveland to win a title for your home region. Your 30 years old and have played 100 plus games the last four years. You haven't missed many games, your athletically at your peak right now. You see how Kobe has broken down at 35 years and he only played on the Olympic team twice while you have done it three times and played in the 2006 FIBA World Championships. Your roster is Kyrie Irving, Anderson Varajeo, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, first overall pick Andrew Wiggins. Now you want to win a title and Kevin Love can be acquired. Do you want to go to war for the next two years with Wiggins or Love? You have an opt out of your contract and can go full mercenary if necessary. You know Love from the Olympic team and know he is better than Chris Bosh. He and you can have games where he outlets 10-20 times a game to you and makes it easy for you or you can have the tremendous upside potential of Andrew Wiggins. Wiggins has the upside and can defend, but you want to win titles. Okay, so you do you want the fresh legs upside of Wiggins, Anthony Bennett who was one of the worst 10 players in the NBA who played on the court significant minutes last year or Kevin Love one of the top 15 players in the NBA who is 25 and might get Ray Allen to consider jumping onboard to win another title?

Hubie says go with Love.

 

[osullfam]

Wiggins is no 2. You can list him there but he is a classic 3. LbJ can play 4 if needbe. Is there anyone stronger than him around the basket?

You're probably right, but most NBA pundits project him as a 2. I'll take a 3/4 of Bron and Love over Bron and 19 year old Wiggins. Bennett is reported to be part of the discussion and reports from Las Vegas say he's in better shape and played well, but not near number 1 pick well.

 

[Alsacs]

If Lebron played PF over the course of an 82 game season he would physically be done. He can handle it for stretches, but he is a playmaker and having him defend PF would kill him over a season. JB said he can guard Chris Paul or Marc Gasol, but he couldn't guard the Gasols for a whole season, for a game or series sure.

Wiggins is getting a lot of love in this thread. People saying keep Wiggins for future cap space don't realize Wiggins and Bennett will combine for 10 million on the cap and that thir contracts don't create much space.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I am going to channel my inner Hubie Brown because who doesn't love how he talks.

Okay, your Lebron James you have gone back to Cleveland to win a title for your home region. Your 30 years old and have played 100 plus games the last four years. You haven't missed many games, your athletically at your peak right now. You see how Kobe has broken down at 35 years and he only played on the Olympic team twice while you have done it three times and played in the 2006 FIBA World Championships. Your roster is Kyrie Irving, Anderson Varajeo, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, first overall pick Andrew Wiggins. Now you want to win a title and Kevin Love can be acquired. Do you want to go to war for the next two years with Wiggins or Love? You have an opt out of your contract and can go full mercenary if necessary. You know Love from the Olympic team and know he is better than Chris Bosh. He and you can have games where he outlets 10-20 times a game to you and makes it easy for you or you can have the tremendous upside potential of Andrew Wiggins. Wiggins has the upside and can defend, but you want to win titles. Okay, so you do you want the fresh legs upside of Wiggins, Anthony Bennett who was one of the worst 10 players in the NBA who played on the court significant minutes last year or Kevin Love one of the top 15 players in the NBA who is 25 and might get Ray Allen to consider jumping onboard to win another title?

Hubie says go with Love.

I see your Hubie, and raise you my Hubie.

You're Lebron James. You just saw your team fall apart around you in the finals to a team with exceptional depth. You realize your friends aren't getting any younger, your ownership group won't spend to add better talent around you, and you've been thinking Miami isn't home anyway, so you take your talents back to Cleveland. You join a roster with a young All-Star at point guard, one of your favorite teammates from your earlier days with the Cavs, a young scoring guard, two young forwards, the most recent #1 draft pick that can duplicate some of what you do on the perimeter defensively, some financial flexibility, and a bunch of draft picks in the coming years. Your odometer's rising, and while you're a do-it-all talent, it's weighing on you being on teams where you have to do-it-all. There's a guy out there in Kevin Love that's awfully good, but he comes with a price tag that's high - for sure that #1 draft pick, one of your forwards or maybe the young shooting guard, the remaining financial flexibility, and some of those future draft picks. It would be great to play alongside another elite talent, but you know that after that you're looking at roster filler. You're wondering deep down if your team gets Love under these conditions if your roster is looking a lot like what you just left in Miami, just younger and less defensive minded.

 

[Timonen]

Wiggins is getting a lot of love in this thread.

Context is important here. Wiggins is getting lots of love here because he is getting folded into a pretty fantastic team where he can grow and learn from some incredible vets. You're balancing the age of the team beautifully by having varejao/miller/allen (maybe) as the vets, lebron as the "in prime" superstar, irving as the "still learning young guy who's really good" and bennett/wiggins as the young guys with upside (wiggings with a giant upside). lots of leadership and the personalities even blend. That mix obviously doesn't have to be the final equation, but if you win with it, you're set up to continue to win with it as you tinker. Dion is the one that really doesn't seem to fit and you can always trade bennett/wiggins down the line. Both of their values are too low relative to their potential, though. you don't NEED to sell them so don't and try to let them build their value up before moving them (or potentially seeing how they fit, which could be a better alternative). there will always be free agents, expiring contracts and sign/trade options for a team with assets. Don't F with a long term plan, when legit short term winning has a real chance RIGHT NOW.

 

[Alsacs]

Context is important here. Wiggins is getting lots of love here because he is getting folded into a pretty fantastic team where he can grow and learn from some incredible vets. You're balancing the age of the team beautifully by having varejao/miller/allen (maybe) as the vets, lebron as the "in prime" superstar, irving as the "still learning young guy who's really good" and bennett/wiggins as the young guys with upside (wiggings with a giant upside). lots of leadership and the personalities even blend. That mix obviously doesn't have to be the final equation, but if you win with it, you're set up to continue to win with it as you tinker. Dion is the one that really doesn't seem to fit and you can always trade bennett/wiggins down the line. Both of their values are too low relative to their potential, though. you don't NEED to sell them so don't and try to let them build their value up before moving them (or potentially seeing how they fit, which could be a better alternative). there will always be free agents, expiring contracts and sign/trade options for a team with assets. Don't F with a long term plan, when legit short term winning has a real chance RIGHT NOW.

I am a Patriots fan would you rather have the Giants or Steelers last 9 years or the Patriots last 9 years.

Patriots 2005-2013 9 years
8 playoff appearances(the year they missed playoffs Brady tore his ACL and the team went 11-5 and missed the playoffs)
0 Super Bowl wins
2 Super Bowl losses
3 AFC title losses
2 AFC Divisional losses
1 Wild Card loss

Giants 2005-2013 9 years
5 playoff appearances
2 Super Bowl wins
0 Super Bowl losses
0 NFC title losses
1 NFC divisional loss
2 Wild Card losses

Steelers 2005-2013 9 years
5 playoff appearances
2 Super Bowl wins
1 Super Bowl loss
0 AFC title losses
0 AFC divisional losses
2 Wild Card losses


The point is the Patriots have gone with the long term method they don't go all-in to win every year(2007 exception and they didn't waste their cap to go all-in that year because Moss took a cheap deal) and that is why they are always good. They don't get into the salary cap hell the Giants/Steelers have gotten themselves into, but those teams have 2 SB titles to look back on so their fanbases while not exactly happy are more forgiving for 2 consecutive mediocre seasons. If the Cavs want to be good for the next decade fine keep Wiggins, but you aren't winning a title in the near future as the East is still competitive, the West Champ would be better as well. Lebron isn't a spring chicken, but unless you really think Wiggins is the guy in 5 years you trade for Kevin Love and have a chance to win now and get that title. If Cleveland wins a title then the Wiggins trade would be justified. A title can never be taken away.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Context is important here. Wiggins is getting lots of love here because he is getting folded into a pretty fantastic team where he can grow and learn from some incredible vets. You're balancing the age of the team beautifully by having varejao/miller/allen (maybe) as the vets, lebron as the "in prime" superstar, irving as the "still learning young guy who's really good" and bennett/wiggins as the young guys with upside (wiggings with a giant upside). lots of leadership and the personalities even blend. That mix obviously doesn't have to be the final equation, but if you win with it, you're set up to continue to win with it as you tinker. Dion is the one that really doesn't seem to fit and you can always trade bennett/wiggins down the line. Both of their values are too low relative to their potential, though. you don't NEED to sell them so don't and try to let them build their value up before moving them (or potentially seeing how they fit, which could be a better alternative). there will always be free agents, expiring contracts and sign/trade options for a team with assets. Don't F with a long term plan, when legit short term winning has a real chance RIGHT NOW.

I think Dion fits great actually. Having someone with the swagger to get you a bucket when the stars sit is a huge luxury. Big assumption here, but all you have to do to make him happy is let him start the game and then manage the minutes from there so that at all times you've got a scorer or two on the floor.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

If the Cavs want to be good for the next decade fine keep Wiggins, but you aren't winning a title in the near future as the East is still competitive, the West Champ would be better as well. Lebron isn't a spring chicken, but unless you really think Wiggins is the guy in 5 years you trade for Kevin Love and have a chance to win now and get that title. If Cleveland wins a title then the Wiggins trade would be justified. A title can never be taken away.

I think those of us in the "keep Wiggins" camp feel that the Cavs team as constructed has a great chance to win now. I'm not convinced getting Love actually does make them better, depending on what else they end up losing to acquire him.

 

[osullfam]

I think Dion fits great actually. Having someone with the swagger to get you a bucket when the stars sit is a huge luxury. Big assumption here, but all you have to do to make him happy is let him start the game and then manage the minutes from there so that at all times you've got a scorer or two on the floor.

agree. Dion's the guy who leads the second unit where the lead grows vs. shrinks. Invaluable.

 

[Knicks411]

I think those of us in the "keep Wiggins" camp feel that the Cavs team as constructed has a great chance to win now. I'm not convinced getting Love actually does make them better, depending on what else they end up losing to acquire him.

if it's Bennett and Wiggins for Love, I think the Cavs get a lot better. Part of that is I'm just not sold on Wiggins as a difference maker.

Not that I disagree about the Cavs having a great chance to win, I think they do. They have Lebron, after all.

I wonder if Cleveland regrets the extension to Irving now? I dunno, maybe it doesn't matter. I doubt they could send him to Minnesota for Love.

 

[Alsacs]

Irving, Bennett to Minnesota, Love, Rondo to Cleveland, Waiters, draft picks to Boston.

 

[Alsacs]

One Grantland writer agrees with my Hubie.
Guess what: That same Wiggins-for-Love deal will still be sitting there after Christmas. None of the other 28 teams are trumping it. If it has to be done, then it has to be done — the Cavs can’t waste the rest of LeBron’s prime if Wiggins isn’t close to being ready yet, not with LeBron passing 40,000 career minutes during the first quarter of his first 2014 Cavs game. There’s a shelf life here. The Cavaliers can’t take their sweet time and wait for their supporting cast to catch up with the greatest player of his generation. They can’t.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-would-you-trade-wiggins-for-love-shootaround/
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-would-you-trade-wiggins-for-love-shootaround/
3 for Love 1 for Wiggins.
LeBron’s 29 years old. The East is wide open. Even if you think Wiggins will be a star — I think he will — it probably won’t happen for another three or four years, at which point the East will probably be tougher, LeBron will be older, and there’s a chance the Cavs will have wasted three years of LeBron with no titles, while the entire city of Cleveland gets a little more anxious every year.

 

[Timonen]

Irving, Bennett to Minnesota, Love, Rondo to Cleveland, Waiters, draft picks to Boston.

Rondo can't shoot, which is all the pg needs to do with Lebron, right? He'd be playing off the ball. Obviously, that team would be insane in the open court but dunno about half court O.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Right now, Cleveland can replace what they would get from Wiggins/Bennett over the next 2 years by getting Love and signing Allen/Aminu to fill the bench. During that time period, Thompson and Waiters will have a bigger impact on the Cavs success than those two guys, and they would be adding a top 5-15 player in the entire league to the roster. If after those two years, Lebron stays, then they could look to trade Irving/Love to regain depth/cap flexibility, or if Irving grows as a player, they could have two stars in place and Lebron could slide into a role like Pierce had on the last Celtics title team.

The argument for Wiggins seems to be that he can serve as a defender. Can anyone on this board say that Wiggins is going to lock down Durant, Paul, or Parker next year if the Cavs make the Finals? Is his 33% fg shooting from Vegas going to keep teams from giving him open 3 after open 3 in the playoffs?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Why did the Cavs make him the #1 overall pick?

He has crazy athleticism and measurables. He did not exactly set the NCAA on fire last year. He may not have the temperment to be an "alpha dog" in the NBA. He deferred an awful lot to teammates in college, and did not really impose himself on the game. Those are characteristics he will absolutely need if he is to live up to expectations of being a number 1 pick.

 

[two3zone]

I think those of us in the "keep Wiggins" camp feel that the Cavs team as constructed has a great chance to win now. I'm not convinced getting Love actually does make them better, depending on what else they end up losing to acquire him.

I think this is where I am with all of this, I think it also helps that they'll have more cap room with their current guys than adding love. Either Love or Lebron go down with an injury they're in trouble. I wouldn't count Bennett out yet either, if he turns into half of what Love is, Wiggins turns out half of his ceiling, and whomever that first round pick is would still be a lot to give up for one player.

If I'm Cleveland I stand pat and put this amazingly athletic and long team out on the floor and dare another team to matchup with us.