Perspective

[TheCusian]

I do sincerely hope so. I remember what it was like to be good, and I want to be good again ... very badly.

I'm not sure if you remember the X Files, but Agent Mulder used to have a poster on his basement office wall w/ a picture of a UFO on it and the script "I want to believe." That's how I feel.

I've just spent the last 15 years getting burnt, so it's hard to have faith w/o some hard evidence. Here's to hoping, though...

I keep reading about people wanting evidence...

- Our HC salary is *finally* competitive with the rest of the P5
- the hiring of extra recruiting and other football staffers
- The IPF
- VaTech win
- Dome reno

I think things are trending in the right direction; but due to the prolonged crappiness there is no patience.

 

[SoBristol]

I keep reading about people wanting evidence...

- Our HC salary is *finally* competitive with the rest of the P5
- the hiring of extra recruiting and other football staffers
- The IPF
- VaTech win
- Dome reno

I think things are trending in the right direction; but due to the prolonged crappiness there is no patience.

Yes -- the program has gone 11 - 24 since the Texas Bowl win, so it is understandable that many want to see evidence that the corner has been turned. I doubt internal stuff (staffers), a concept plan yet to be funded (Demo renov), or paying up for a group of young assistants (many of whom had no previous experience in coaching at the P5 level) will convince the skeptics.

Won't convince me about 2017 prospects, unless Babers pulls in jucos and grad transfers to revamp the talent.

 

[nzm136]

Yes -- the program has gone 11 - 24 since the Texas Bowl win, so it is understandable that many want to see evidence that the corner has been turned. I doubt internal stuff (staffers), a concept plan yet to be funded (Demo renov), or paying up for a group of young assistants (many of whom had no previous experience in coaching at the P5 level) will convince the skeptics.

Won't convince me about 2017 prospects, unless Babers pulls in jucos and grad transfers to revamp the talent.

Bingo

 

[nzm136]

You should check those stars again... this class is doing just fine. There are two Canadian kids who remain unranked in the composite that are dragging us down.

YOU should check again. It isn't - at least not compared to SS' classes. And it's not just the NR's. It's also THE peppering of 2 stars which is bigger than in prior years and the absence of anything above 3 stars (not that we've had much success with them - either in terms of recruiting or on the field).

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Turning this program around is a monumental task. It's just not going to be easy and may not happen anytime soon, we really have very few advantages if any over any other meddling program these days. Going to take a hell of a coach and staff to get things even back to say 8-4 let along anything better than that. A betting man or woman would not be bullish on Syracuse. Just the reality of where things are today.

Digging up past success, doesn't mean a damn thing anymore. Kids and most fans below 35 simply don't care

Like I said, the deck is certainly stacked and the years keep peeling back. We were 4-8 and sucked again this year which would be how many losing seasons in the last 15 years? 10 or 11?

 

[SoBristol]

YOU should check again. It isn't - at least not compared to SS' classes. And it's not just the NR's. It's also THE peppering of 2 stars which is bigger than in prior years and the absence of anything above 3 stars (not that we've had much success with them - either in terms of recruiting or on the field).

Sorry -- can't agree with you. Shafer's 2013 class was pretty bad, impacted by Marrone's departure. The 2014 class was better, on paper, but the more highly ranked players in that class never made it here The 2015 class was his best (Dungey's group). We have seen the results of his 3 classes taken together.

Babers' first class has already proven to be a good one, with several defensive players contributing as true frosh. In fairness, you have to wait at least until signing day to judge his 2017 class, whether you want to count stars or the assessments of how the recruiting services rank the class.

 

[nzm136]

Sorry -- can't agree with you. Shafer's 2013 class was pretty bad, impacted by Marrone's departure. The 2014 class was better, on paper, but the more highly ranked players in that class never made it here The 2015 class was his best (Dungey's group). We have seen the results of his 3 classes taken together.

Babers' first class has already proven to be a good one, with several defensive players contributing as true frosh. In fairness, you have to wait at least until signing day to judge his 2017 class, whether you want to count stars or the assessments of how the recruiting services rank the class.

I can't hold 2013 against SS, and we're late enough in the cycle to have an idea of how this class is going to look. Sure, there will be some movement, but we have an idea.

All that said, I am purely speaking about this class. I thought that his last class was great given the hurdles that he had, and next year's class may very well be great. I certainly hope that it is.

Also, I'm going purely off of stars, which aren't everything. Maybe these kids fit his system extremely well. Maybe he's good at finding hidden gems. Maybe this class is an outlier.

 

[PhatOrange]

I can't hold 2013 against SS, and we're late enough in the cycle to have an idea of how this class is going to look. Sure, there will be some movement, but we have an idea.

All that said, I am purely speaking about this class. I thought that his last class was great given the hurdles that he had, and next year's class may very well be great. I certainly hope that it is.

Also, I'm going purely off of stars, which aren't everything. Maybe these kids fit his system extremely well. Maybe he's good at finding hidden gems. Maybe this class is an outlier.

this class top to bottom may have more P5 offers than any other class in recent memory.

Jan 2017 Enrollees

Nadarius Fagan - LB
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 7/24/16 : *** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 7/24/16
Major (7) - SU, Alabama, Louisville, LSU, Nebraska, Purdue, USC
Mid Major (5) - App St., FAU, Southern Miss, Temple, USF
Primary Recruiter - Monroe

July 2017 Enrollees (19)

Jonathan Kingsley - DE
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 9/23/16 : *** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 9/23/16
Major (15) - SU, Duke, Florida State, Kentucky, Louisville, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, NC State, Pitt, Rutgers, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest
Mid Major (3) - App St., East Carolina, Georgia St.
Primary Recruiter - ?

Josh Palmer - WR
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/22/16 : *** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 6/22/16
Major (10) - SU, Illinois, Louisville, Maryland, Michigan, Nebraska, NC St., Pitt, Purdue, Wake Forest
Mid Major (6) - Bowling Green, FAU, FIU, Fresno St., MTSU, Temple
Primary Recruiter - Monroe

Tommy Devito - QB - ***UA ALL AMERICAN***
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 4/16/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 6/20/16
Major (7) - SU, Boston College, Maryland, Mississippi, Rutgers, Texas A&M, Wake Forest
Mid Major (5) - Bowling Green, Buffalo, Colorado St, Temple, Toledo
Primary Recruiter - Lewis

Aaron Hackett - TE
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 7/3/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 7/30/16
Major (6) - SU, Iowa St., Kentucky, Louisville, Minnesota, Wake Forest
Mid Major (15) - App. St., Buffalo, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, UCONN, East Carolina, FAU, FIU, Marshall, Toledo, Troy, UCF, USF, WKU, Western Michigan
Primary Recruiter - Ferri

Curtis Harper - DT
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 8/1/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 8/1/16
Major (5) - SU, Boston College, Iowa St., Maryland, Wake Forest
Mid Major (11) - Akron, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Colorado St., Kent St., Miami OH, ODU, Temple, Toledo, UCONN, Western Michigan
Primary Recruiter - Kaufman

Sharod Johnson - WR
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 4/16/16 : NR ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 6/20/16
Major (4) - SU, Illinois, NC St., Purdue
Mid Major (7) - App St., FAU, FIU, Miami OH, MTSU, Temple, Toledo
Primary Recruiter - Monroe

Kadeem Trotter - LB
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 7/3/16 : *** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 7/3/16
Major (3) - SU, Boston College, Iowa St.
Mid Major (7) - Akron, Ball St, Bowling Green, Kent St, Miami OH, Ohio, Toledo
Primary Recruiter - Kaufman

Eric Coley - ATH
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/25/16 : NR ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 8/7/16 6/25/16
Major (3) - SU, Boston College, Rutgers
Mid Major (8) - Army, Ball State, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Central Michigan, Kent State, Toledo, Utah State
Primary Recruiter - Monroe/Reynolds

Zach Morton - DE
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 5/10/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 11/28/16
Major (3) - SU, Iowa St., Pitt
Mid Major (3) - Bowling Green, Cincinnati, Western Michigan
Primary Recruiter - Reynolds

Cameron Jordan - WR
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/26/16 : NR ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 8/7/16 6/26/16
Major (3) - SU, Boston College, Wake Forest
Mid Major (3) - Buffalo, Temple, UCONN
Primary Recruiter - Hart

Allen Stritzinger - RB
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/26/16 : *** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 6/26/16
Major (2) - SU, Michigan
Mid Major (11) - Ball State, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, Kent State, Miami OH, Northern Illinois, Ohio, Toledo, Western Michigan
Primary Recruiter - Hart

B.J. Daniels - RB
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 10/31/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 10/31/16
Major (2) - SU, Maryland
Mid Major (7) - Colorado St., FAU, FIU, South Alabama, Southern Miss, USF, UTSA
Primary Recruiter - Hart

Nykeim Johnson - WR
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/21/16 : *** ; Current Rivals Rating: *** 6/21/16
Major (2) - SU, Virginia
Mid Major (5) - Army, Bowling Green, Charlotte, Hawaii, Navy
Primary Recruiter - Hart

Russell Thompson-Bishop - WR
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 7/21/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 7/21/16
Major (2) - SU, Boston College
Mid Major (4) - Army, Navy, Temple, UCONN
Primary Recruiter - ?

Ifefatu Melifonwu - DB
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 7/3/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 7/3/16
Major (2) - SU, Boston College
Mid Major (2) - UCONN, UMASS
Primary Recruiter - Hart

Markenzy Pierre - RB
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 10/29/16 : ** ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 10/29/16
Major (1) - SU
Mid Major (10) - App St., East Carolina, Georgia St., FIU, Kent State, Memphis, MTSU, Western Kentucky, Utah State, UTSA
Primary Recruiter - Monroe

Dakota Davis - OL
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/24/16 : NR ; Current Rivals Rating: ** 8/7/16
Major (1) - SU
Mid Major (3) - Air Force, UCONN, ODU
Primary Recruiter - Ferri

Patrick Davis - OL
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/24/16 : NR ; Current Rivals Rating: NR 6/24/16
Major (1) - SU
Mid Major (1) - Buffalo
Primary Recruiter - ?

Tyrell Richards - LB
Rivals Rating At Commit Date 6/18/16 : NR ; Current Rivals Rating: NR 6/20/16
Major (1) - SU
Mid Major (0)
Primary Recruiter - Kaufman

 

[TheCusian]

Yes -- the program has gone 11 - 24 since the Texas Bowl win, so it is understandable that many want to see evidence that the corner has been turned. I doubt internal stuff (staffers), a concept plan yet to be funded (Demo renov), or paying up for a group of young assistants (many of whom had no previous experience in coaching at the P5 level) will convince the skeptics.

Won't convince me about 2017 prospects, unless Babers pulls in jucos and grad transfers to revamp the talent.

Yeah, sure. But all the same I prefer the "setting the foundation for the long term" kind of hope than the coach upgraded the relent slightly kind.

 

[TheCusian]

YOU should check again. It isn't - at least not compared to SS' classes. And it's not just the NR's. It's also THE peppering of 2 stars which is bigger than in prior years and the absence of anything above 3 stars (not that we've had much success with them - either in terms of recruiting or on the field).

Ok.

Using 2 - 4 -7 composite:

2013: ranked #73, avg player rating 80.77
2014: ranked #50, avg player rating 82.73
2015: ranked #58, avg player rating 81.86
2016: ranked #65, avg player rating 83.19
2017: ranked #49, avg player rating 81.04*

*the 2 unranked Canadian kids get an auto 2* rating

This class has 3 2* and two unranked
That's pretty much in line with every year of Shafer's recruiting.

Devito was a 4* until very recently.

You'd be hard pressed to say these classes are better, but they are not worse. And as previously mentioned - our best Shafer classes had the top kids not make it to campus.

 

[SoBristol]

Yeah, sure. But all the same I prefer the "setting the foundation for the long term" kind of hope than the coach upgraded the relent slightly kind.

He adds to the foundation with 20 recruits from high school, who will begin to have impact in 2018 and later for the most part.
What he does with the remaining 7 or so slots will tell me whether he wants to win games in 2017. Did Etta-Tawo upgrade the WR talent only slightly?

 

[TheCusian]

He adds to the foundation with 20 recruits from high school, who will begin to have impact in 2018 and later for the most part.
What he does with the remaining 7 or so slots will tell me whether he wants to win games in 2017. Did Etta-Tawo upgrade the WR talent only slightly?

We'll yeah, of course. I'd prefer all of the above (young talent, old talent, commitment to the program with buildings and staffing).

Do you honestly think he's deciding whether he wants to win games next season or not?!

 

[nzm136]

Ok.

Using 2 - 4 -7 composite:

2013: ranked #73, avg player rating 80.77
2014: ranked #50, avg player rating 82.73
2015: ranked #58, avg player rating 81.86
2016: ranked #65, avg player rating 83.19
2017: ranked #49, avg player rating 81.04*

*the 2 unranked Canadian kids get an auto 2* rating

This class has 3 2* and two unranked
That's pretty much in line with every year of Shafer's recruiting.

Devito was a 4* until very recently.

You'd be hard pressed to say these classes are better, but they are not worse. And as previously mentioned - our best Shafer classes had the top kids not make it to campus.

2 4 7 blurs everyone together so it's hard to get any real separation between years. Also, that #49 ranking will probably drop between now and signing day.

I counted 10 2*'s w/ rivals rankings vs 8 3*'s
Scout was better w/ 1 2* and 1 NR and 20 3's

2015
R 13 2*'s & 13 3*'s
S (I can't pull up on a phone)

2014
R 8 2*'s & 16 3*'s
S (I can't pull up on a phone)

Scout is probably closer, but I can't pull old rankings up on my phone. Regardless, arguing that we're getting better isn't supported by numbers. Purely looking at stars, we aren't improving, and we're probably regressing.

That said, I'll be the first to admit that Dino did a great job last year, that Dino could very well have a great next year now that recruits know what to expect from SU, and that stars aren't everything.

 

[TheCusian]

2 4 7 blurs everyone together so it's hard to get any real separation between years. Also, that #49 ranking will probably drop between now and signing day.

I counted 10 2*'s w/ rivals rankings vs 8 3*'s
Scout was better w/ 1 2* and 1 NR and 20 3's

2015
R 13 2*'s & 13 3*'s
S (I can't pull up on a phone)

2014
R 8 2*'s & 16 3*'s
S (I can't pull up on a phone)

Scout is probably closer, but I can't pull old rankings up on my phone. Regardless, arguing that we're getting better isn't supported by numbers. Purely looking at stars, we aren't improving, and we're probably regressing.

That said, I'll be the first to admit that Dino did a great job last year, that Dino could very well have a great next year now that recruits know what to expect from SU, and that stars aren't everything.

Composite means combined - r and S are baked in. No wonder your freaking - R is an outlier with that many 2*. 2 4 7 has us with 3 plus the 2 unranked kids. Are we sure r is actually evaluating?

 

[Trueblue25]

I'd assume, correct me if im wrong, CU and UW have much much much much more money than us.

 

[SoBristol]

We'll yeah, of course. I'd prefer all of the above (young talent, old talent, commitment to the program with buildings and staffing).

Do you honestly think he's deciding whether he wants to win games next season or not?!

Rephrasing the point, yes. It isn't a matter of "want to" as much as choosing how much to emphasize 2017 in the rebuilding approach.

Our head coach will be showing his priorities in using the remaining 7 slots. He can go with all HS recruits (as Shafer did, with the exception of Mahoney who walked on) and bide his time in development mode. Or he can pull from the juco and grad transfer ranks to enhance the team for 2017 and 2018. There is a trade off (near term/long term) in using slots.
Marrone used the juco route aggressively in his rebuild, and it paid off in bowl teams in 2010 and 2012, but many believe it left Shafer with holes to fill.
Shafer did not follow Marrone's approach, and took his lumps.
Babers went outside to help Bowling Green -- bringing in a juco TE and a grad transfer S to bolster weak spots in his 2015 team.
Babers did something similar in his 2016 efforts with Etta-Tawo, a grad transfer DE, and a juco CB (who never made it here). Not enough to give us a winner, but the team would have been tough to watch without Etta-Tawo.

SU's 2017 team has some very obvious weak units -- DE, a safety spot, a CB, a replacement for Etta-Tawo. He could upgrade the line talent on both sides. Our RBs don't scare anyone. So, build slowly, or reach out to juco and grad transfers?

 

[Czar]

I'd assume, correct me if im wrong, CU and UW have much much much much more money than us.

Dunno about Colorado, but the Washington booster and donor base is not to be trifled with. Biggest in the Pac besides USC and Oregon I believe.

 

[TheCusian]

Rephrasing the point, yes. It isn't a matter of "want to" as much as choosing how much to emphasize 2017 in the rebuilding approach.

Our head coach will be showing his priorities in using the remaining 7 slots. He can go with all HS recruits (as Shafer did, with the exception of Mahoney who walked on) and bide his time in development mode. Or he can pull from the juco and grad transfer ranks to enhance the team for 2017 and 2018. There is a trade off (near term/long term) in using slots.
Marrone used the juco route aggressively in his rebuild, and it paid off in bowl teams in 2010 and 2012, but many believe it left Shafer with holes to fill.
Shafer did not follow Marrone's approach, and took his lumps.
Babers went outside to help Bowling Green -- bringing in a juco TE and a grad transfer S to bolster weak spots in his 2015 team.
Babers did something similar in his 2016 efforts with Etta-Tawo, a grad transfer DE, and a juco CB (who never made it here). Not enough to give us a winner, but the team would have been tough to watch without Etta-Tawo.

SU's 2017 team has some very obvious weak units -- DE, a safety spot, a CB, a replacement for Etta-Tawo. He could upgrade the line talent on both sides. Our RBs don't scare anyone. So, build slowly, or reach out to juco and grad transfers?

I was speaking primarily to those who feel like monetary investments weren't being made to be competitive in football.

I see how we can extend that to recruiting philosophy. And I think he'll be aggressive in addressing to holes on the roster.

Long term - check.
Short term - check.

(And I'm pretty excited about the freshman RBs from FL)

 

[JrodCuse]

I can't hold 2013 against SS, and we're late enough in the cycle to have an idea of how this class is going to look. Sure, there will be some movement, but we have an idea.

All that said, I am purely speaking about this class. I thought that his last class was great given the hurdles that he had, and next year's class may very well be great. I certainly hope that it is.

Also, I'm going purely off of stars, which aren't everything. Maybe these kids fit his system extremely well. Maybe he's good at finding hidden gems. Maybe this class is an outlier.

You can't hold 2013 against SS but can hold 2016 against Babers? They were both basically in the same situation. Both only had a few months to fill out / retain commits during a turnover.

We SHOULD be comparing 2013 SS class to 2016 Babers class.

Then we should compare year 2 of each (2014 vs 2017) with a full cycle to recruit.

2015 was SS's best class right? Compare that one to Baber's 2018 class since it was both their 3rd season. Then we can really compare things evenly.

 

[bnoro]

You can't hold 2013 against SS but can hold 2016 against Babers? They were both basically in the same situation. Both only had a few months to fill out / retain commits during a turnover.

We SHOULD be comparing 2013 SS class to 2016 Babers class.

Then we should compare year 2 of each (2014 vs 2017) with a full cycle to recruit.

2015 was SS's best class right? Compare that one to Baber's 2018 class since it was both their 3rd season. Then we can really compare things evenly.

Shafer's 2013 class was MILES behind Babers' 2016 class. I think that Babers' 2016 class might end up being better than ANY of Shafer's classes in the long run. We'll see.

 

[SoBristol]

Yes, Babers' work in closing the 2016 was impressive. Two players he retained from Shafer's commits (Neal, Bradshaw) saw the field as true frosh, as did several of his own. It is a little early to evaluate the class as a whole (the OL, the DBs).

 

[nzm136]

Yes, Babers' work in closing the 2016 was impressive. Two players he retained from Shafer's commits (Neal, Bradshaw) saw the field as true frosh, as did several of his own. It is a little early to evaluate the class as a whole (the OL, the DBs).

Given the very short timeline, I'd already call Babers' '16 class a success.

I also don't think that it's fair to hold '13 against SS. DM didn't exactly have a killer class lined up that SS could inherent, and DM left at the last minute and took his assistants w/ him.

 

[Ish88888]

Given the very short timeline, I'd already call Babers' '16 class a success.

I also don't think that it's fair to hold '13 against SS. DM didn't exactly have a killer class lined up that SS could inherent, and DM left at the last minute and took his assistants w/ him.

Some key NYC recruits jumped ship when DM jumped ship. That was a nice class DM was bringing in along with 2 stud coordinators and a humming offense.

 

[baggerbob]

OK -- you could build on that point. The true frosh QB (Culpepper) was a Shafer recruit, as was Moe Neal, the new skill player who had the most impact this season, other than Etta-Tawo.
But that isn't the whole story. All 4 of Babers' OL recruits in the 2016 class red-shirted, but have the height, weight and backgrounds we want in the OL. Should compare favorably with the Shafer recruits who played this season -- but of course that is only opinion at this point. The DL recruits in the 2016 were all recruited by Babers -- we had a chance to see their potential.
I believe you underestimate the 2017 class -- it has some slots to fill, and Babers sure closed strong in the last cycle. We will have to see what we have next August -- he has a group of WRs, two very good RBs, in addition to the #4 QB in the East. Babers will find some help from the juco and grad transfer ranks -- if he does that, you might like the improvement year over year.

We've never been in ESPN's top 40 until this year.

 

[nzm136]

Some key NYC recruits jumped ship when DM jumped ship. That was a nice class DM was bringing in along with 2 stud coordinators and a humming offense.

DM was always great at developing talent, but recruiting was never his strong point. I don't think that he particularly liked that aspect of the college game.