Pre 3 point shot era

[Cheriehoop]

I think the point that Knicks411 is trying to make, and it is entirely valid, is that Kohls would have been guarded much differently if the shots he was taking were worth 50% more points than they were when we was taking them.

In the entire 3-point era of college basketball history, only one player has ever averaged >5 threes a game (Darin Fitzgerald at Butler), and that was in 86-87, the first year that the 3 pointer was introduced across all conferences. Usually the college leader makes somewhere between 3.8 and 4.5 threes per game.

Sure that's a valid point but that's the problem with comparing eras. They may have guarded differently based on the difference how college referees called fouls/moving screens etc in each era too. From 1968 till 1976 or 1977, dunking was banned in college basketball which also had to effect strategy, degree of physical contact, perhaps even promoted better shooting etc. The game has changed so much (not all of it's good and not all bad either) , it makes it really difficult to even compare the same statistics between eras.

 

[SBU72]

He didn't go to SU but I can only imagine what Pete Maravich would have done if there was a 3 point line back in the day. The Pistol averaged 44 a game without it. There is a youtube video of Maravich dropping 68 on Clyde Frazier and the NYK one night. I think the ball hit the rim maybe twice.

Calvin Murphy. Niagara. Averaged 33.1 ppg. Only 5'9 And what I didn't know but according to Wikipedia "One of his best games was a 68 point outing against Syracuse University at Niagara's Gallagher Center.[?

 

[Ringostar57]

The game was definitely played differently. Making long shots was an invitation to be guarded outside making penetrating drives easier. The game then was more outside in than inside out due to the lack of a 3 point shot and with no shot clock you had to provide the impetus for establishing a rhythm/tempo to the game by double teaming and pressing. No dunking forced you to be more skilled with your hands in finishing of plays inside (Dr J finger rolls and George Gervin reverse spinning layups.) And yes the backoard was used a lot more on inside shots. No shot clock and scores in the 80s and 90s were common. Dean Smith's 4 corners "taking the air out of the ball" was touted as an innovation that directly led to the shot clock.
The biggest change is that over the years everyone has adjusted to using the clock and working for a dunk shot. The game slowed down and interior offensive skills have suffered. Whats the same is that winners make their shots and losers don't. Oh forgot shot selection...I would say that it might be a little more restrained and selective in today's game.

 

[bpo57]

I know the game was a lot different back then as far as pace goes, but the main point I'm trying to make is that averaging 5 3 pointers a game is ridiculous. Just have a hard time believing anyone could do that.

Fair point but you'd probably also have a hard time believing somebody could average 44 a game in college like Maravich did. Hell it's rare for somebody to average more than 25 in today's college game. The game was so different then. I think players were better shooters but nowhere near as athletic as today's players. But the reduced athleticism made it easier to get shots off as defenders were not as long and quick as today. Averaging five 3s is a lot, no doubt. But there were guys back in the 60s and 70s who had serious range and would have hoisted up a ton of shots from beyond if they could be rewarded with 3 on each make.

 

[bpo57]

Calvin Murphy. Niagara. Averaged 33.1 ppg. Only 5'9 And what I didn't know but according to Wikipedia "One of his best games was a 68 point outing against Syracuse University at Niagara's Gallagher Center.[?

I remember that game. Murphy was a beast. He was a very good shooter but not a long range bomber. Quick as hell and an incredible ball handler. Also maybe the best FT shooter I've ever seen.

 

[cuseattle]

Fair point but you'd probably also have a hard time believing somebody could average 44 a game in college like Maravich did. Hell it's rare for somebody to average more than 25 in today's college game. The game was so different then. I think players were better shooters but nowhere near as athletic as today's players. But the reduced athleticism made it easier to get shots off as defenders were not as long and quick as today. Averaging five 3s is a lot, no doubt. But there were guys back in the 60s and 70s who had serious range and would have hoisted up a ton of shots from beyond if they could be rewarded with 3 on each make.

When I read this, I was thinking that Hank Gathers might have been the last guy to average 30 points per game. Wrong. Hank averaged 32.7 in 1989, but Bo Kimble averaged over 35 in 1990.

So, that's it right? No! There have been three more since.

 

[manleyzoo]

A bit off topic. Calvin Murphy played for Gorton, a Yonkers inner city school. His main foe was Boo Glover playing at a suburban Yonkers high school. Boo consistently carried his white boys school over Gorton. Boo Glover was the better player, bigger stronger, faster, higher scorer. Would have been a major star but destined to be nothing more than a playground legend. Not college material.

Calvin Murphy played for Norwalk High in Connecticut. In 1965, he was a senior when I was a sophomore. His team played Rippowam HS, my high school in Stamford, twice during that season and also for the league title in the playoffs. I was at all those games, wide-eyed, not believing my eyes. We were pretty good but never had a chance, he was that dominant. Never seen anything like him with his speed, handle and jumping, especially at 5'9" max. A prototype player wayyyy ahead of his time.

 

[orangefog]

Calvin Murphy played for Norwalk High in Connecticut. He was a senior when I was a sophomore. His team played my high school twice during the season and also in the playoffs. I was at all those games. Never seen anything like him with his speed, handle and jumping. A prototype player wayyyy ahead of his time.

I wish I could have seen him play. It sounds like if he were 6ft tall or taller, he would have been completely unstoppable.

 

[manleyzoo]

I saw every game the Kid played his whole career including his freshman year with my boy Ken Gray. Kohls was great no doubt...Wondering about how many points he might average with the 3 means he must be judged based on today's standards. And that means because he played no defense--and neither did DuVal for that matter--Kohls might not see as much floor time now as he did back in those days. He might have been used as just a shooter which means defenses would shade to him a lot more. So maybe he doesn't get off enough shots to average 5 threes a game. On defense, a lot of hand waving is all he and DuVal did compared to how defense is played now. As slow as he was and as mediocre a handle as he had, he might have gotten Boeheimed if he played in the three-point era.

 

[manleyzoo]

Calvin Murphy. Niagara. Averaged 33.1 ppg. Only 5'9 And what I didn't know but according to Wikipedia "One of his best games was a 68 point outing against Syracuse University at Niagara's Gallagher Center.[?

If memory serves, I think I remember he had 34 in each half.

 

[SBU72]

I wish I could have seen him play. It sounds like if he were 6ft tall or taller, he would have been completely unstoppable.

My brother went to Niagara, so I saw him from his freshman year on. Then I went to Bonaventure. His last game there he blocked a Bob Lanier layup, FROM BEHIND! Opening tap, Bona got the ball and Lanier took off for the basket, took a pass and went to lay it in (no dunks allowed) and Calvin came up from the back court and blocked it. If memory serves, he was one of the few opposing players I every saw to get a standing ovation when he left the court for the last time at Bona.

 

[bpo57]

One other thing about Calvin Murphy. He was known for his pugilistic skills, too. There were a few guys in the NBA that thought fighting Murphy was a good idea. Not.

 

[Cheriehoop]

One other thing about Calvin Murphy. He was known for his pugilistic skills, too. There were a few guys in the NBA that thought fighting Murphy was a good idea. Not.

What shocked me about Calvin Murphy was the awesome shows he put on as a baton twirler too. Many teams in that era put on pre-game shows. Dennis Duval of SU used to put on a mini globetrotter performance before games. Murphy was the national baton twirling champion and even used fire while twirling - it was amazing. Wonder if there was a rule created abolishing players putting on pre-game shows?

 

[Knicks411]

Fair point but you'd probably also have a hard time believing somebody could average 44 a game in college like Maravich did. Hell it's rare for somebody to average more than 25 in today's college game. The game was so different then. I think players were better shooters but nowhere near as athletic as today's players. But the reduced athleticism made it easier to get shots off as defenders were not as long and quick as today. Averaging five 3s is a lot, no doubt. But there were guys back in the 60s and 70s who had serious range and would have hoisted up a ton of shots from beyond if they could be rewarded with 3 on each make.

I get that the game was different, and I vaguely remember the same conversation about Maravich a while back. I'm just trying to provide some context is all; 5 3's a game is so far ahead of what anyone else is doing right now I just find it nearly impossible to believe.

Reddick averaged 3.9 3's per game his senior year; so maybe it's possible then?

 

[RF2044]

I get that the game was different, and I vaguely remember the same conversation about Maravich a while back. I'm just trying to provide some context is all; 5 3's a game is so far ahead of what anyone else is doing right now I just find it nearly impossible to believe.

Reddick averaged 3.9 3's per game his senior year; so maybe it's possible then?

Has it ever been done before? I mean--I suppose in a Loyola Marymount kind of bombs away system it could be possible. But I can't think of anybody who came close to averaging five per game at either the collegiate or NBA level. Therefore, it doesn't seem likely that it would be possible even for the best shooters in program history.

 

[bpo57]

What shocked me about Calvin Murphy was the awesome shows he put on as a baton twirler too. Many teams in that era put on pre-game shows. Dennis Duval of SU used to put on a mini globetrotter performance before games. Murphy was the national baton twirling champion and even used fire while twirling - it was amazing. Wonder if there was a rule created abolishing players putting on pre-game shows?

I remember going to games as a kid and watching Duval put on that pre-game show in warm-ups. Very entertaining.

 

[CaptainJ]

When I read this, I was thinking that Hank Gathers might have been the last guy to average 30 points per game. Wrong. Hank averaged 32.7 in 1989, but Bo Kimble averaged over 35 in 1990.

So, that's it right? No! There have been three more since.

I remember what a treat it was watching those teams. When I saw them take down UNLV in the tournament for awhile I had a feeling anything was possible, until their game against Michigan. College hoops meant a lot more to me back then, it was almost magical at times, maybe spiritual. I don't quite have that feeling anymore, although that includes changes within me as well as within the game. Back then, watching those games got me to go shovel off the court afterwards, sometimes in a blizzard, and finding out how I'd do shooting left handed free throws.

 

[Knicks411]

Has it ever been done before? I mean--I suppose in a Loyola Marymount kind of bombs away system it could be possible. But I can't think of anybody who came close to averaging five per game at either the collegiate or NBA level. Therefore, it doesn't seem likely that it would be possible even for the best shooters in program history.

That was my original thought; in the NBA Steph has topped out at like 3.5 per game.

It's kind of hard to go back into the past because the game has changed so much and the 3 is such a larger part of the offense now than at any other time. It looks like in 1990 when Loyola scored over 120 points per game, they averaged less than 9 made 3's as a team per game.

So like i said, in Redick's last 2 years he averaged 3.7 and 3.9 per game, so he'd sill need to increase that by nearly 25% to get there. You'd probably need to combine the faster pace of the 70's with the current focus on 3 pointers, and maybe you could get there.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That was my original thought; in the NBA Steph has topped out at like 3.5 per game.

It's kind of hard to go back into the past because the game has changed so much and the 3 is such a larger part of the offense now than at any other time. It looks like in 1990 when Loyola scored over 120 points per game, they averaged less than 9 made 3's as a team per game.

So like i said, in Redick's last 2 years he averaged 3.7 and 3.9 per game, so he'd sill need to increase that by nearly 25% to get there. You'd probably need to combine the faster pace of the 70's with the current focus on 3 pointers, and maybe you could get there.

Steph has the college record for most threes per game at 4.5 as well. My basketball knowledge only goes back to the early 90's, so it's hard for me to judge, but I would find it surprising if anyone made more deep shots Steph. My dad is in his 70's and the player he thinks most compares to Curry is Jerry West.

 

[Knicks411]

Steph has the college record for most threes per game at 4.5 as well. My basketball knowledge only goes back to the early 90's, so it's hard for me to judge, but I would find it surprising if anyone made more deep shots Steph. My dad is in his 70's and the player he thinks most compares to Curry is Jerry West.

I don't even know why I didn't check Steph in college; if Steph could make 4.5 per game in college, then if he was playing in an era with a faster pace, I suppose 5 is in play.

Of course Steph is also probably my pick for the best shooter who's ever lived, so...