Syracuse's B.J. Johnson injures ankle in USA East Coast's loss to Estonia (PS: Waters)

[OrangeXtreme]

Last year Roberson was 14-47 on FG attempts (.298), and 0-5 from the 3 point line.

What happens if you're not "ready" and you can't shoot?

Baye was 24-48 last year, and at least he had the good sense to not even attempt any 3 pointers.

 

[Waltdods]

Last year Roberson was 14-47 on FG attempts (.298), and 0-5 from the 3 point line.

What happens if you're not "ready" and you can't shoot?

Baye was 24-48 last year, and at least he had the good sense to not even attempt any 3 pointers.

Separate from the annual strum und drang about the bench, I do think these numbers should temper some expectations about Roberson this year. My sense is people are expecting him to be the next in the line of very good forwards who, particularly in recent years, have tended to have breakout seasons as sophomores. But below are the freshman lines for the three guys I think people are looking to as career models (Joseph, Fair, Grant), as well as Roberson's. Roberson obviously played a lot fewer minutes than these guys. But he also shot under 30% - Joseph, who probably had the worst freshman year of the other three, shot 43%. (Even Terrance Roberts shot 36% as a freshman, in similar minutes to Roberson.) More subjectively, at least in my view, all of the other three had games when they looked like big time players as freshmen. Roberson had a few moments, I suppose, and is clearly a good athlete and rebounder. But I think those expecting him this year to be what Grant (let alone Fair) was last year on the offensive end are setting themselves up for disappointment. I think more realistic is that he averages 8-10 points, rebounds very well, and develops into a big scorer as a junior. (That obviously raises the question of who is actually going to score next year, and I kind of think that's a good question.)


Kris Joseph:

easonClPosGGSMinFGFGA%FTFTA%3Pt3PA%AsstRebDRebORebFlsDQTOSTBSPtsPPGAPGRPG
2008-09FrF34245844103
42.7%
2152
40.4%
726
26.9%
17815427350273081163.40.52.4

CJ Fair

SeasonClPosGGSMinFGFGA%FTFTA%3Pt3PA%AsstRebDRebORebFlsDQTOSTBSPtsPPGAPGRPG
2010-11FrF32059682151
54.3%
3964
60.9%
13
33.3%
1312272503902726252046.40.43.8

Jerami Grant

SeasonClPosGGSMinFGFGA%FTFTA%3Pt3PA%AsstRebDRebORebFlsDQTOSTBSPtsPPGAPGRPG
2012-13FrF40957254117
46.2%
4173
56.2%
615
40.0%
1811872465412617171553.90.53.0

Tyler Roberson

Season
ConfGMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
2013-14SyracuseACC201621447.2981442.33305.0001522.68214243854471743

 

[OGBJ20]

Slightly off topic for this thread
BJ was selected all tournament team. Stats from their last scrimmage after the tourney.
"Tyler Roberson - 12pts, 5reb, 1stl, 18:30min"

No your right on topic for this thread! This thread got high jacked a long time ago!:rolling:

 

[tee1222]

No your right on topic for this thread! This thread got high jacked a long time ago!:rolling:

I knew you'd notice, my friend

 

[SWC75]

11-12 is the anomaly, not the proving in recent years that he would go deep...

even so - MCW didnt play much and even Rak went to the bench shortly after starting for 2/3 of the season.

11-12 is an anomaly because it was a year when we had nine guys able to contribute. And JB used them.

 

[CusefanATL]

11-12 is an anomaly because it was a year when we had nine guys able to contribute. And JB used them.

Of course.

The point is that JB doesn't play anyone at the beginning of the year to game test anyone for the important part of the season- because he is worried about winning every single game. Obviously, if players can't play - they shouldn't play at the end of the season. C'mon man. We are talking about the giving them a legit shot to prove themselves or improve. 8 of 13 games for Roberson before ACC play including 2 of those games being 1 min and 4 min is an absolute JOKE. I'm sorry I honestly don't understand how you can disagree with that even 1 iota.

25-0 is now the syracuse thing. Sue me, I'd rather do the UCONN, UK, Mich st thing.

 

[SWC75]

Of course.

The point is that JB doesn't play anyone at the beginning of the year to game test anyone for the important part of the season- because he is worried about winning every single game. Obviously, if players can't play - they shouldn't play at the end of the season. C'mon man. We are talking about the giving them a legit shot to prove themselves or improve. 8 of 13 games for Roberson before ACC play including 2 of those games being 1 min and 4 min is an absolute JOKE. I'm sorry I honestly don't understand how you can disagree with that even 1 iota.

25-0 is now the syracuse thing. Sue me, I'd rather do the UCONN, UK, Mich st thing.

What games are you willing to lose without criticizing the coach for losing them?

The games Roberson didn't play in the pre-ACC portion of the schedule last year were the 6 point win over St. Francis, which was closer than even that indicated,(we scored the last 10 points), the three games in Maui which were against strong teams and the 5 point win over St. John's in the Garden. He also saw limited time vs. Indiana and Villanova, games against a #1 seed from the previous season and one of the top teams of 2013-14. He played 10+ minutes plus in the other games. How is that a JOKE? Do you really think another coach would have done it differently?

 

[CusefanATL]

How is that a JOKE? Do you really think another coach would have done it differently?

yes.

 

[CusefanATL]

would gmac have played in the crunch time of memphis after shooting 25% if deshaun williams was still around?

would deshaun williams have helped win us a national championship.

i want you 3 or 4 people who disagree with me to understand - i KNOW what you are saying about not being ready... but there is a huge growth b/w game 1 and game 38. only a player or 2 per year in the entire country are actually ready on game 1. but you can grow a good amount of top 100 freshman into being ready by the games that always matters

yes JB may have to endure some criticism for losing a game here or there to st johns or in the maui invitational or hell even to st francis - but that absolutely pales into the comparison of him only getting to 4 final 4's.

 

[RF2044]

would gmac have played in the crunch time of memphis after shooting 25% if deshaun williams was still around?

would deshaun williams have helped win us a national championship.

i want you 3 or 4 people who disagree with me to understand - i KNOW what you are saying about not being ready... but there is a huge growth b/w game 1 and game 38. only a player or 2 per year in the entire country are actually ready on game 1. but you can grow a good amount of top 100 freshman into being ready by the games that always matters

yes JB may have to endure some criticism for losing a game here or there to st johns or in the maui invitational or hell even to st francis - but that absolutely pales into the comparison of him only getting to 4 final 4's.

Both your logic and premise are fundamentally flawed. Playing an expanded rotation does not necessarily correlate to improved team success--during the season or post-season. It has everything to do with the players on the bench and their capability to execute, not the number of guys in the rotation. But since it is your preference that our coach play an expanded rotation, you make an attribution about how subbing more would be being "better" for the team's long term potential, because it would cause the players on the bench to improve. Not necessarily.

Look, it would have been great last year if some of the frosh who didn't play would have been more ready to contribute. Because last year's team could have used an infusion of... something. Anything. But relying upon players in the rotation who are overmatched and / or not ready physically, skill-wise, or execution-wise is not a formula for success. Pretending otherwise doesn't change that fundamental truth.

Also, it's easy to declare sans any supporting evidence that playing Roberson would have benefited the team, but at the end of the day it's a completely unsubstantiated claim on your part. When Roberson got his chance to contribute in the GT game, he didn't help the team at all--he completely laid an egg. Cue your rebuttal about "if he'd only gotten more developmental PT..." Chicken v. egg. Which is why I stated above that "ifs" and "buts" don't make for very compelling arguments.

But at the end of the day, Boeheim wasn't comfortable playing a group of players on the team this past season. Several of those players might go on [and probably will] to have fine careers in Orange--but that does't mean that they were ready or able to contribute at a high level last year. Force feeding them minutes MIGHT--emphasis on "might"--have prepared them to play an expanded role, or it might not have benefited the team much at all depending on each respective player's level of readiness. In fact, it may have actually resulted in negative consequences, an outcome conveniently overlooked by you.

 

[RF2044]

I'm sorry I honestly don't understand how you can disagree with that even 1 iota.

Our head coach disagrees with you, too. His is the only opinion that counts.

 

[Dave85]

Of course.

The point is that JB doesn't play anyone at the beginning of the year to game test anyone for the important part of the season- because he is worried about winning every single game. Obviously, if players can't play - they shouldn't play at the end of the season. C'mon man. We are talking about the giving them a legit shot to prove themselves or improve. 8 of 13 games for Roberson before ACC play including 2 of those games being 1 min and 4 min is an absolute JOKE. I'm sorry I honestly don't understand how you can disagree with that even 1 iota.

25-0 is now the syracuse thing. Sue me, I'd rather do the UCONN, UK, Mich st thing.

I think JB needs to get more PT for the 7, 8, 9 so we have some depth around tournament time. It just seems every year our starters are banged up the last week of the season just before the tournament starts.

 

[RF2044]

For the record, if I were king for a day, I'd prefer to see more judicious substitutions [in general] as well. I'd also prefer to see us mix defenses, press more, and use our generally elite team athleticism to force the action instead of allowing teams to shorten the game and hang around... but all of these topics are side-discussions for another thread.

The ironic thing about our respective positions on this topic is that I confidently predict that this year, all three of last year's frosh will find their way into the rotation this season. I expect Roberson to start and be a major contributor. I expect BJ to be this year's sixth man / super scoring sub that we lacked last year, and for Patterson to carve out some consistent time in the backcourt, despite the fact that many posters overlook him as a potential contributor. If those guys were all the players they'll be heading into this season last year, I honestly believe that JB would have found minutes for all three in what would have been a 9-10 player rotation [instead of 6-7], which would have partially alleviated some of last year's systemic team problems.

But it wouldn't have addressed all of the team problems, nor been a magic bullet to correct the team's limitations. BJ was simply too physically underdeveloped and didn't shoot well enough when he did get run. Roberson really was set back by getting off to a late start--and as much as people would like to pretend otherwise, that delayed start really screwed up his entire year. Maybe he would have helped, but then again--what did he shoot from the field again? Would that really have improved the team's offensive malaise, or would it have exacerbated it further? We desperately needed a backup point guard, but does anyone really think that force feeding the trigger happy Patterson some minutes at lead guard would have helped the team be better? Come on.

For that matter, does anyone REALLY believe that if Dashonte Riley had gotten some additional PT in 09-10, that he would have somehow morphed into a more capable player? He might have been a bit more comfortable heading into the tournament, but ultimately he was limited as sh-- [as evidenced by how the rest of his career unfolded at EMU]. It doesn't matter how much extra PT he would have gotten that season--his ability to contribute would have only been marginally better, if it tangibly improved at all. Ditto Rakeem Christmas in 2012. He just. Wasn't. Ready. Garnering a few more minutes wasn't somehow going to magically become a reliable offensive player or change his tendency to drift through lengthy stretches without doing much. He was limited that season [some might argue that he's STILL limited]--playing more might have made him a little more ready to replace Fab, but it wouldn't have erased his short comings at that point on his developmental curve.

Experience is a relevant factor, but many in this thread are over stating how important it is and then complaining about how PT is meted out in terms of how experience is adversely impacted. Equally if not more important in my book is the capability to make plays, the ability to execute, being able to capably perform systemic defensive assignments, timing / team need, etc. That's precisely why we see so many players make the sophomore leap forward in terms of readiness.

As for Dave's point above about getting "more PT for the 7, 8, and 9 so we have more depth around tournament time," it's time to start accepting the fact that JB does not coach to build depth for the future. Never has, never will. Complaining about it is as pointless as wishing for it to somehow magically change after 37 years. Regardless, while I certainly believe that JB could dole out an extra minute or two of PT to bench guys to give starters a blow, I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I suggest that there are very few examples of JB using guys in the rotation who aren't up to the task. Maybe Michael Edwards and Josh Wright. Can't think of any other examples off the top of my head. In that regard, he's the ultimate "Peter Principle" coach when it comes to the rotation: he dispenses time to each player's general capability to contribute. Those who can be counted upon to produce get time, and those who aren't ready don't.

Besides, most teams contract their rotation around tournament time, not the other way around. JB isn't alone in that regard.

 

[SWC75]

would gmac have played in the crunch time of memphis after shooting 25% if deshaun williams was still around?

would deshaun williams have helped win us a national championship.

If DeShaun Williams were still around, GMAC would have played a lot more than Tyler Roberson did last year because GMAC was ready to contribute to the team and Tyler Roberson was not.

Again the example of the 2011-12 team is that when 9 guys are ready to contribute, 9 guys play. And the 2012-13 team is an example of a Boeheim team that didn't "run out of gas" at the end of the season. Last year's team didn't either. They just missed too many shots.

 

[CusefanATL]

If DeShaun Williams were still around, GMAC would have played a lot more than Tyler Roberson did last year because GMAC was ready to contribute to the team and Tyler Roberson was not.

Again the example of the 2011-12 team is that when 9 guys are ready to contribute, 9 guys play. And the 2012-13 team is an example of a Boeheim team that didn't "run out of gas" at the end of the season. Last year's team didn't either. They just missed too many shots.

the "run out of gas" rebuttal certainly came out of left field. What was that in reference to?

 

[CusefanATL]

Both your logic and premise are fundamentally flawed. Playing an expanded rotation does not necessarily correlate to improved team success--during the season or post-season. It has everything to do with the players on the bench and their capability to execute, not the number of guys in the rotation. But since it is your preference that our coach play an expanded rotation, you make an attribution about how subbing more would be being "better" for the team's long term potential, because it would cause the players on the bench to improve. Not necessarily.

Look, it would have been great last year if some of the frosh who didn't play would have been more ready to contribute. Because last year's team could have used an infusion of... something. Anything. But relying upon players in the rotation who are overmatched and / or not ready physically, skill-wise, or execution-wise is not a formula for success. Pretending otherwise doesn't change that fundamental truth.

Also, it's easy to declare sans any supporting evidence that playing Roberson would have benefited the team, but at the end of the day it's a completely unsubstantiated claim on your part. When Roberson got his chance to contribute in the GT game, he didn't help the team at all--he completely laid an egg. Cue your rebuttal about "if he'd only gotten more developmental PT..." Chicken v. egg. Which is why I stated above that "ifs" and "buts" don't make for very compelling arguments.

But at the end of the day, Boeheim wasn't comfortable playing a group of players on the team this past season. Several of those players might go on [and probably will] to have fine careers in Orange--but that does't mean that they were ready or able to contribute at a high level last year. Force feeding them minutes MIGHT--emphasis on "might"--have prepared them to play an expanded role, or it might not have benefited the team much at all depending on each respective player's level of readiness. In fact, it may have actually resulted in negative consequences, an outcome conveniently overlooked by you.

I agree with you that is a chicken or egg argument. I didnt mean to say (nor do i think i said it) that Roberson would have been a contributor if he had played meaningful minutes in the pre-conf schedule. My point is that it is worth the risk of finding out and letting the players grow. I do think we would have been better prepared for Grants injury if Roberson played double the minutes he did earlier in the season. Same with Arinze if Dashonte would have gotten more minutes (NOT SAYING DASHONTE WOULD HAVE BEEN AN NBA PICK IF HE PLAYED MORE MINUTES)

In regars to JB: with his (quite glaring) lack of postseason success vs regular season success - you would think he would change his way a little bit. But JB is a very Syracusian who is getting older. He probably still drives the exact way to the airport that he did as 40 years ago and he probably eats breakfast at the same table at the same time at the eggplant 6 days a week.

 

[CusefanATL]

In fact, it may have actually resulted in negative consequences, an outcome conveniently overlooked by you.

:rolling:

 

[RF2044]

:rolling:

You must have missed where we've made the elite eight and final four 2 of the past three seasons. Again, not convenient for the broken record anti-JB narrative.

Might be time to switch up some of the talking points. "JB never plays more than 7..." Only, ever since his involvement in USA basketball, he HAS expanded his rotation to 8 or 9, depending on the roster.

"JB has a glaring lack of posteason success..." Except, we've fielded some pretty good teams recently who HAVE had post-season success [see above].

I don't think there's any fan of this program that wouldn't appreciate more post-season success. And I fully understand the frustration, because I experience it too. But as stated much earlier in this thread, some of the complaints are focused on the wrong things. Because the reality of where we're at as a program is that we've had stints at #1 in three of the last five seasons. We're recruiting like gangbusters. And if it weren't for a fluke injury to Arinze in 2010 and Fab's selfish behavior in 2012, we'd have even more recent postseason success.

If you're not excited about the future direction this program is headed, then maybe you ought to go root for Michigan State, Kentucky, or Uconn since you're such a big self-proclaimed fan of how they play. Problem solved.

 

[CusefanATL]

You must have missed where we've made the elite eight and final four 2 of the past three seasons. Again, not convenient for the broken record anti-JB narrative.

Might be time to switch up some of the talking points. "JB never plays more than 7..." Only, ever since his involvement in USA basketball, he HAS expanded his rotation to 8 or 9, depending on the roster.

"JB has a glaring lack of posteason success..." Except, we've fielded some pretty good teams recently who HAVE had post-season success [see above].

I don't think there's any fan of this program that wouldn't appreciate more post-season success. And I fully understand the frustration, because I experience it too. But as stated much earlier in this thread, some of the complaints are focused on the wrong things. Because the reality of where we're at as a program is that we've had stints at #1 in three of the last five seasons. We're recruiting like gangbusters. And if it weren't for a fluke injury to Arinze in 2010 and Fab's selfish behavior in 2012, we'd have even more recent postseason success.

If you're not excited about the future direction this program is headed, then maybe you ought to go root for Michigan State, Kentucky, or Uconn since you're such a big self-proclaimed fan of how they play. Problem solved.

i find it HILARIOUS that you totally butchered my actual comment of "lack of (quite glaring) postseason success vs regular season success"

you do realize the entire comment is 100% needed for my point, right?

I got really pissed off at your last comment "problem solved" on top of you editing my statement - so I am going to take a deep breath, back off and realize that I am hopefully reading your post with different intent.

I'm only going to end this with I am an absolute die hard Syracuse fan. In football and basketball. I have never even come close to wavering and if you talk to every single person that knows me - they will tell you how obnoxious i am about it. I am also a huge JB supporter. That doesn't mean that I dont think there are better ways to run the ship.

 

[tee1222]

You must have missed where we've made the elite eight and final four 2 of the past three seasons. Again, not convenient for the broken record anti-JB narrative.

Might be time to switch up some of the talking points. "JB never plays more than 7..." Only, ever since his involvement in USA basketball, he HAS expanded his rotation to 8 or 9, depending on the roster.

"JB has a glaring lack of posteason success..." Except, we've fielded some pretty good teams recently who HAVE had post-season success [see above].

I don't think there's any fan of this program that wouldn't appreciate more post-season success. And I fully understand the frustration, because I experience it too. But as stated much earlier in this thread, some of the complaints are focused on the wrong things. Because the reality of where we're at as a program is that we've had stints at #1 in three of the last five seasons. We're recruiting like gangbusters. And if it weren't for a fluke injury to Arinze in 2010 and Fab's selfish behavior in 2012, we'd have even more recent postseason success.

If you're not excited about the future direction this program is headed, then maybe you ought to go root for Michigan State, Kentucky, or Uconn since you're such a big self-proclaimed fan of how they play. Problem solved.

i find it HILARIOUS that you totally butchered my actual comment of "lack of (quite glaring) postseason success vs regular season success"

you do realize the entire comment is 100% needed for my point, right?

I got really pissed off at your last comment "problem solved" on top of you editing my statement - so I am going to take a deep breath, back off and realize that I am hopefully reading your post with different intent.

I'm only going to end this with I am an absolute die hard Syracuse fan. In football and basketball. I have never even come close to wavering and if you talk to every single person that knows me - they will tell you how obnoxious i am about it. I am also a huge JB supporter. That doesn't mean that I dont think there are better ways to run the ship.

 

[RF2044]

i find it HILARIOUS that you totally butchered my actual comment of "lack of (quite glaring) postseason success vs regular season success"

you do realize the entire comment is 100% needed for my point, right?

I got really pissed off at your last comment "problem solved" on top of you editing my statement - so I am going to take a deep breath, back off and realize that I am hopefully reading your post with different intent.

I'm only going to end this with I am an absolute die hard Syracuse fan. In football and basketball. I have never even come close to wavering and if you talk to every single person that knows me - they will tell you how obnoxious i am about it. I am also a huge JB supporter. That doesn't mean that I dont think there are better ways to run the ship.

So did you find it HILARIOUS or did you get really pissed. Quit equivocating.

j/k. If you are getting really pissed, then you are taking this exchange too personally / a different way from what I intended. Probably best just to disengage, given that this isn't a very important topic, all things considered. Have a good weekend.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

This is why JB should play more than 7 players like he did last season. It's just too easy for our players to get injured. Maybe we need a few more early losses so we can have a few more better players at the end of the season.

Why is it easier for SU players to get injured than any other team's players?

 

[Dave85]

Why is it easier for SU players to get injured than any other team's players?

Sorry, but I don't see the logic in what you are saying. Other teams have injuries. With our team it seems every year for a long time now there's always someone getting hurt. It's a long season before the big dance. I'd rather have at least 8 or 9 very good players in good condition than 7 but with lots of wear and tear.