Tired?

[Townie72]

Basketball is three dimensional. It's running and jumping. And talk about artificial surfaces! It's unique sport.

Heart rate is heart rate. Recovery time is recovery time. Calories are calories.

In BB action stops every few minutes. That's why 40 minutes of action takes 2 hours. And even when the clock is running, they are frequently walking the ball up-court, passing the ball around the defense. And SU plays zone, so our players aren't chasing guys from sideline to sideline.

In pro soccer, the midfielders are pretty much moving for 96 minutes with a halftime break. They are sprinting, jumping for headers all over the field, running backwards and sideways.

 

[creatorsgam]

It could be a different kind of fatigue. Mental fatigue. We have no idea what else is going on in their lives. The postseason ban also must weigh on them.

 

[Townie72]

You cant compare the two sports. Running 7 miles where its mostly straight line and on the ground vs sprinting, stopping, cutting, jumping..jumping being the biggest producer of fatigue. Its just much more complicated than just comparing mile for mile. There's also comparison of relative fatigue of team vs team. There is no doubt that most of our opponents are fresher than us. That has an effect. I dont believe, however, that fatigue is a huge factor in this team's issues. I just dont think they are very good.

Actually, the two sports in my opinion, are very similar in terms of the actions the athletes are required to do. Think back to when you watched the World Cup and the sheer amount of efforts and energy that we required. There's a lot of jumping to head balls.

And the sheer amount of running is so much greater.

I agree with you. The guards are missing lay-ups and doing other things because of skill deficiencies, not fatigue.

 

[NineOneSeven]

We get it... You like soccer.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm not really sure I understand your burden of proof here, Townie. Ok, soccer players run more per contest than college basketball players. Ok, NBA players play longer games and more games than college basketball players.

So, what? In order to get tired an athlete has to do equivalent to those things, and if they do less they must not actually be tired? In order for a fan to make a reasonable claim that our guys look tired they'd need to put heart monitors on them and know for sure?

 

[Guinness]

This is the big point. If they are tired now, how do they expect to play in the NBA?

Even MJ and Lebron got breathers wrapped around time outs. Seems some of our guys get the time outs and that is it.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Based on his icon, I think Townie wants to feed Cooney to the Asian dudes pigs.

 

[Czar]

This is the big point. If they are tired now, how do they expect to play in the NBA?

No NBA player is playing longer than 12 consecutive minutes. The rotations don't work like that.

 

[Townie72]

This is the big point. If they are tired now, how do they expect to play in the NBA?

pssst. They aren't tired. That's a myth promoted on this board that want to

I'm not really sure I understand your burden of proof here, Townie. Ok, soccer players run more per contest than college basketball players. Ok, NBA players play longer games and more games than college basketball players.

So, what? In order to get tired an athlete has to do equivalent to those things, and if they do less they must not actually be tired? In order for a fan to make a reasonable claim that our guys look tired they'd need to put heart monitors on them and know for sure?

You are actually on the right point.

Although it would be a lot more complicated than not.

On one hand you have Boeheim expressly saying they aren't tired and that they are specifically conditioned to do what they are doing.

On the other you have our band of amateur exercise physiologists and cardiologists 0n here saying they are tired, because they say so. Without a chard of evidence except for a list of injured/unavailable players.

So absent the sophisticated equipment that would be required to prove this, who are we to believe?

It's clear that there are other much older athletes who are regularly surpassing the amount of physical effort these 20 year olds are expending.

So why would they make these unsupported claims of fatigue? Well, maybe because it fits into two narratives. The first is JB is an idiot for not playing more players. And second that these player's shortcomings are due to being tired and not to any thing else.

They don't have a clue how tired these guys are. Not a single clue.

 

[sabach]

Whether or not SU players are tired isn't entirely the issue when there is another team on the court. If that other team subs throughout the game and their players are fresher at the end, that could give them an advantage at the end of the game. I think div 1 college athletes can play 40 min of a basketball game. But if you think that those athletes are just as fresh at the end of the game as they were at the beginning of the game no doctor would agree with that.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Forget getting along.

I didn't go to SU so I could avoid arguments.

Premiere League football players Steven Gerrard (34), Frank Lampard (36) and John Terry (34) are running 7 miles a game, two and three times a week in 90+ minute games and TC and G can’t run 2 miles a game twice a week without being so tired they can’t make lay-ups.

And this sounds reasonable?

Jogging 7 miles and sprinting 2.5 are very very different things. I get there is some sprinting in soccer, but there is a lot of standing around as well.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Tired?

Because of our short bench this year, are SU players performing less well than they could with more rest?

Lots of people on this forum are convinced this is true. And repeatedly make unchallenged (but completely unsupported) claims about this. It’s surprising we have so many cardiologists and exercise physiologists on the board here.

JB says the players aren’t tired. He said they are conditioned to run this much. I have seen videos of the hearts of University of Maryland basketball players and they were the models of efficiency.

NBA games are 48 minutes and the season is 82 games long. The player that ran the farthest per game in a recent season was Luol Deng of the Chicago Bulls, who averaged 2.72 miles per game. College players run less.

Soccer games last 90 minutes Substitutions are a rare event. it's not uncommon for a player to average seven miles per game. Seven! Some running as much as 9.5 miles in a game. That’s two to three times what basketball players run. And these teams plays 2, 3 or 4 times a week because many compete in three leagues (i.e. EPL. UFA. Carling Cup) in a 8-month season

http://gizmodo.com/5992583/how-far-do-you-run-in-different-sports

I’m suggesting that those on here that are claiming that SU players are too tired don’t have a bloody clue what they are talking about. Nada. Zilch. This is their own fantasy being sold on here as fact.(

If they have some facts to support their claims, let’s hear em.

I know at one point with about 8 minutes left in the second half, i saw 4 of 5 players back on defense slouched over, huffing, and grabbing their shorts (universal sign for tired ness). Interestingly, Obokoh looked fresh as a daisy. I know that isn't hard data, but we can be practical on here too, right?

Thanks for the anecdotal information about soccer players though. All 5'6", 140 lbs of Landon Donovan running up and down a soccer field seems like an apt comparison to Tyler Roberson run and jumping and pushing (and getting pushed back by enormous men) for 40 minutes.

 

[kcsu]

pssst. They aren't tired. That's a myth promoted on this board that want to


You are actually on the right point.

Although it would be a lot more complicated than not.

On one hand you have Boeheim expressly saying they aren't tired and that they are specifically conditioned to do what they are doing.

On the other you have our band of amateur exercise physiologists and cardiologists 0n here saying they are tired, because they say so. Without a chard of evidence except for a list of injured/unavailable players.

So absent the sophisticated equipment that would be required to prove this, who are we to believe?

It's clear that there are other much older athletes who are regularly surpassing the amount of physical effort these 20 year olds are expending.

So why would they make these unsupported claims of fatigue? Well, maybe because it fits into two narratives. The first is JB is an idiot for not playing more players. And second that these player's shortcomings are due to being tired and not to any thing else.

They don't have a clue how tired these guys are. Not a single clue.

Having played in college i can tell you that they are tired. Your comparison is fun reading but makes zero sense. Is a 100 meter sprinter tired after the race? Is Lindsay Vaughn tired after a grand Slalom? Is a baseball player tired after an in the park homerun? Have you ever played competative basketball?

 

[Carolinasu]

G missing open fast break layups is a bit puzzling

G misses quite a few layups and I am not bagging on him but it really gets old when Cooney does it and gets buried on every Syracuse forum by quite a few people seems like a double standard.This is the first time I have even seen it brought up that G missed a layup.

 

[Chris02M]

Were undermanned which is forcing people to do more than there comfortable doing

 

[Full_Rebar]

I've taken some exercise phys classes and comparing pro soccer players to college basketball players is hard (as it is for most sports). Elite soccer players are training for endurance even throughout the season. Are we thinking that any college basketball team is doing 30-40 minutes of straight cardio more than once a week? These guys train summer/fall and then are thrown into practice mode- so they are doing drills, shooting, and maybe playing some full-court scrimmage during a 90-120 minute session.

I am sure Christmas is in great shape, but what toll does it take on his body to have Okafor at 270 banging him for 25-30 minutes? Muscle fatigue is bound to set in when you are asking players to make explosive plays while absorbing as much contact as is allowed in college basketball. Going back to soccer, are players able to make the type of explosive runs in the 85th minute, that they can make in the 15th minute? It's not just about mileage (I can run a lot longer at 11 minute mile pace than I can if I try to run 7 minute mile pace), but intensity and what the body is being trained to do.

You also need to account for the other factors which can limit fatigue- sleep, nutrition, and proper recovery. I'm sure SU has whirlpools and ice baths, but are players sleeping enough, and eating the proper food? I've said it before, but SU should look to invest in a better dining facility for athletes including a nutritionist. You are asking 18-22 yo olds to live in apartments and do the things that make a huge difference in performance.

 

[Bayside44]

Their shape is fine - the skill on a lot of our guys is limiting, keep them out there for 40 minutes and those flaws get exposed.

JB says over and over that if he had better options he'd play them.

 

[AZOrange]

Their shape is fine - the skill on a lot of our guys is limiting, keep them out there for 40 minutes and those flaws get exposed.

JB says over and over that if he had better options he'd play them.

It's so obvious he doesn't even need to say it anymore... When cooney is gassed he turns and points to...uh...well...um.

 

[kcsu]

It's so obvious he doesn't even need to say it anymore... When cooney is gassed he turns and points to...uh...well...um.

He points to the basket and prayer that cooney hits it once in a blue moon

 

[JoeSU]

Anyone who has ever player organized sports at a high level knows the physical and mental fatigue that comes with the grind of performing at a high level every 3 or 4 days, for an extended period. That's not to mention the toll that the bumps and bruises take, as well as the fatigue from travel.

Football players only have games once a week, and the "fresh legs" they display after an off-week is undeniable.

 

[Cowtown]

Hmmm, running outdoors on grass vs. playing basketball: stops & starts, sprints, repeatedly jumping 40" in the air, boxing out a guy 4" taller & 40 pounds heavier, controlling a bouncing ball while moving as fast as you can while someone else tries to take it away, getting a charlie horse in the thigh, an elbow in the ear, getting run over drawing a charge, stepping on someone else's ankle and rolling your own, sitting on a bench for 15 minutes after you warm up and then come into the game to sprint the length of the floor ... yeah, they're the same ... sure they are ...

I ran on my college XC team and I played college basketball. True. Stop comparing the two because they're not the same thing. Frank Shorter was not Walt Frazier.

Are SU's kids tired this year? I don't know because I don't get the games where I live. Although I did last year, and they were dead tired in February from doing all the above for four months in the glare of the national spotlight. No, I'm not a doctor, but I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

edit: In my last year coaching at my HS, we had 7 league games and two tournaments in February (won both), with playoffs beginning the first week in March, and we made the final that year. That made 16 games in 5 weeks. My kids were flat out exhausted, and I was running 'em 11 deep. I felt bad making 'em come to practice, even when all we did was shoot-arounds.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I'm a doctor. Yeah they're tired.

 

[anglerman]

G missing open fast break layups is a bit puzzling

Obviously you've never played basketball have you?everyone gets tired and as a coach you have to manage that accordingly on a game by game basis All coaches rest their players or havent you noticed that?

 

[tbonezone]

nobody can give 100% effort for 40 straight minutes.nobody. if you're cool with guys loping downcourt instead of sprinting and taking multiple plays off then by all means don't change a thing.

 

[HOFCeluck]

nobody can give 100% effort for 40 straight minutes. if you're cool with guys loping downcourt instead of sprinting and taking multiple plays off then by all means don't change a thing.

Id say it's also the cumulative effect of playing forty minutes over the course of a five month season.