Truthfully...

[NKR1978]

Yeah, from 1993-1994 season to 2001-2002. 7 NCAA Tournament appearances, 3 Sweet 16's, and a Final Four.

Set back, what ?

Greg Davis was awarded a scholarship. There were a few good years, but there was absolutely no recruiting buzz around the program before Weaver.

 

[jordoo]

That's a good question for someone with better research skills than I have. A quantity class, with a top-ten (I think?) player.

Walton
Hart
Lloyd
Howard
Thomas.

YEs and Walton never played at SU.

 

[moqui]

I agree in the main, but you don't know the level or severity of the allegations. Investigating for a ten year period might show that we actually didn't do much, and they had to go back that far to amass sufficient infractions to even build a case.

Like you, I'm tired of the drama surrounding the program. But don't give in to despair--let's see what the hearing reveals before jumping off the ledge.

I think this may end up being the story . . . one unpaid parking ticket is not that big a deal, but amass a few dozen of them over the years and you are a scofflaw & potentially in big trouble

JB is going to get a lot of heat for this, and maybe end his career on a black note, but make no mistake: this is all the result of the Bernie Fine case. What is ironic is that so many forum members reveled in the schadenfreude of the Sandusky/Penn State mess, but it is that mess that, potentially, is going to rock SU's own flagship program. No Sandusky, no interest in Bobby Davis. No Bobby Davis, no NCAA investigators turning over a decade's worth of rocks. No NCAA investigation and SU is just continuing rolling along in its new Golden Age.

 

[PoppyHart]

Didn't we bring in Thomas and Hart the year after the 96 FF?

Yeah, that's the class. I messed up the years. Was thinking about their freshman year being 96-97.

 

[NKR1978]

Set-back. As in:

.793 winning percentage from 1985 to 1991. Six McDonald's recruits.
.696 winning percentage from 1991 to 1997. One McDonald's recruit (who, of course, deserves mention: John Wallace, who saved our program).

You know, that set-back. The one that every Syracuse fan who watched those teams recognized.

I think you can really go from 91-08 as being generally down (with two obviously amazing spikes of brilliance). 08-09 is when things have taken off.

2009-2014 - .800 winning percentage.

 

[OttoMets]

I think you can really go from 91-08 as being generally down (with two obviously amazing spikes of brilliance). 08-09 is when things have taken off.

2009-2014 - .800 winning percentage.

I think that's right (I include 2009 in that despite the good record and deep Big East run, but it's a minor quibble).

To pinpoint the beginning of the down period, I remember that 1991 game at Notre Dame, just after the series about NCAA infractions was published. We suspended 7 or 8 players (though I think some of them flew in at the last minute and played). Never saw anything like that before; even as we built our record to 26-4, it was like there was a guillotine waiting to drop. The Villanova and Richmond losses almost weren't a surprise. Then it got worse.

 

[OttoMets]

Wasn't the 97 recruiting class very highly rated?

Not sure if Rivals ranked teams' entire classes back then (1996 is the one you're referring to) and I can't find an exact rank, but there were a couple interesting links out there.

http://www.basketballforum.com/college-hoops-central/59990-1996-top-recruits-revisited.html

This has Walton at #9 and Etan at #42 (higher than I'd remembered in Etan's case) in Sporting News. As I recall, Ramel Lloyd was a bit higher than that; no idea where Hart and Howard were, though I think Hart was borderline top-50. We probably had a ~top-30 class that year.

(I'm also stunned to see Illinois recruit Ryan Blackwell sitting at #16 for the previous year. Well-rounded player for us, but he was only a top-16 talent when matched up against Troy Murphy.)

 

[moqui]

Set-back. As in:

.793 winning percentage from 1985 to 1991. Six McDonald's recruits.
.696 winning percentage from 1991 to 1997. One McDonald's recruit (who, of course, deserves mention: John Wallace, who saved our program).

You know, that set-back. The one that every Syracuse fan who watched those teams recognized.

just a minor quibble - there were 3 McD AA recruits from 91-97 - Wallace, Mike Lloyd & Winfred Walton. Even though he didn't play, Walton was successfully recruited. Lloyd was a 92 burger boy who didn't qualify and went to Juco first. He then played one season before the NCAA bagged him for filling his transcript up with phony bible college courses. we are lucky the wins from that season weren't vacated.

 

[OttoMets]

just a minor quibble - there were 3 McD AA recruits from 91-97 - Wallace, Mike Lloyd & Winfred Walton. Even though he didn't play, Walton was successfully recruited. Lloyd was a 92 burger boy who didn't qualify and went to Juco first. He then played one season before the NCAA bagged him for filling his transcript up with phony bible college courses. we are lucky the wins from that season weren't vacated.

Good points. You're certainly right about Walton - he's a McDonald's recruit we successfully offered.

I remembered Lloyd, but the juco thing kind of changes the recruitment story.

 

[jordoo]

Some of you guys remember this stuff extremely well. I suppose I will probably remember the last 12-13 seasons and on that way but graduating high school in the mid-90's and enjoying myself in excess into the early 00's has made that period in SU bball history much more muddled than it should be.

 

[Shark58]

JeCarl Riggins was a walk on...just sayin

 

[newmexicuse]

just a minor quibble - there were 3 McD AA recruits from 91-97 - Wallace, Mike Lloyd & Winfred Walton. Even though he didn't play, Walton was successfully recruited. Lloyd was a 92 burger boy who didn't qualify and went to Juco first. He then played one season before the NCAA bagged him for filling his transcript up with phony bible college courses. we are lucky the wins from that season weren't vacated.

Successfully recruiting talented kids who can't make it to the court is exactly what we were reduced to during those years. I take no solace in getting commitments from those you can't qualify.

 

[OrangeDW]

He saved our program. He's awesome.

But the only recruiting bump we got from 1996 was, unfortunately, Winfred Walton. And so we floundered for awhile, with a nice year in 2000 due to great play from a bunch of under-the-radar recruits, three of whom were seniors.

I don't remember Hart and Blackwell(didn't get him the first time, but still got him) being under the radar at all. That Hart-Walton-Thomas-Ramel Lloyd-Lasean Howard class got a lot of hype. Obviously Walton was the biggest recruit, but the others were well regarded too, as was Blackwell.

 

[OttoMets]

I don't remember Hart and Blackwell(didn't get him the first time, but still got him) being under the radar at all. That Hart-Walton-Thomas-Ramel Lloyd-Lasean Howard class got a lot of hype. Obviously Walton was the biggest recruit, but the others were well regarded too, as was Blackwell.

Apparently Blackwell was a huge recruit for Illinois, though I have no recollection of that.

Our 1996 class was a big deal for us, but it rarely felt like we were in the running for top-20 recruits. We got Walton, I remember talk about Mateen Cleaves, but it was very different from the 1983-1991 period and very different from the Weaver/Murphy/current era.

We got well-regarded players (and good program fits), but not elite recruits. After Walton, I think Tony Bland was our next-highest-rated guy in the post-probation era.

 

[moqui]

I don't remember Hart and Blackwell(didn't get him the first time, but still got him) being under the radar at all. That Hart-Walton-Thomas-Ramel Lloyd-Lasean Howard class got a lot of hype. Obviously Walton was the biggest recruit, but the others were well regarded too, as was Blackwell.

yeah, IIRC, Hart was part of a three-way tug of war between SU, UCLA and UNLV

Apparently Blackwell was a huge recruit for Illinois, though I have no recollection of that.

Our 1996 class was a big deal for us, but it rarely felt like we were in the running for top-20 recruits. We got Walton, I remember talk about Mateen Cleaves, but it was very different from the 1983-1991 period and very different from the Weaver/Murphy/current era.

We got well-regarded players (and good program fits), but not elite recruits. After Walton, I think Tony Bland was our next-highest-rated guy in the post-probation era.

Wasn't DeShaun Williams a top 35-ish player?

 

[llandz]

So I just got back from my alumni club presidents meetings a couple of weeks ago. Every year we have someone from athletic compliance come speak to us. You have no idea the breadth of NCAA rules there are. The lady who is in charge of compliance (and she is also new in the past 2 years, so that person may also have been changed out) is extremely sharp. She carries multiple copies of the NCAA rule book around with her. She said one is always in her glove compartment, one is always on her in person. She gets calls 24/7, and she prefers to get those calls to err on the safe side. It is a full time, no sleep job.
What is even more alarming is that we on this board violate NCAA rules every day, and most of you have no clue that you are doing it. By talking about current players in any form of public social media, we are probably violating a rule. I will all but guarantee that communicating with a player's father about said player is also probably a violation. I, as an alumni club president may not tweet, or comment on facebook about a current player unless I personally know that player, and have permission to do so. I can not use any photos from a game on my club web site or facebook page unless it is an official photo taken by the university. These are some of the NCAA violations that we learned about this year. I am considered part of the university. She also said that anybody that donates even $1 to the athletic department is covered by NCAA rules. Another rule example that we discussed is selling of our tickets. If an alumni club gets a block of tickets, all unused tickets must go back to the box office. We may not sell them on stub hub, craig's list or anyplace. We can only sell them to someone we know is not a potential future athlete, because that would be another violation. So who can possibly know all of these rules? No one. The NCAA can walk into any school, and they will find violations. They are an out of control organization. The fact that every school needs someone on call 24/7 is a testament to this, and also the fact that the arms of the NCAA is so far reaching as to include each and every one of us is another.

 

[AZOrange]

So I just got back from my alumni club presidents meetings a couple of weeks ago. Every year we have someone from athletic compliance come speak to us. You have no idea the breadth of NCAA rules there are. The lady who is in charge of compliance (and she is also new in the past 2 years, so that person may also have been changed out) is extremely sharp. She carries multiple copies of the NCAA rule book around with her. She said one is always in her glove compartment, one is always on her in person. She gets calls 24/7, and she prefers to get those calls to err on the safe side. It is a full time, no sleep job. What is even more alarming is that we on this board violate NCAA rules every day, and most of you have no clue that you are doing it. By talking about current players in any form of public social media, we are probably violating a rule. I will all but guarantee that communicating with a player's father about said player is also probably a violation. I, as an alumni club president may not tweet, or comment on facebook about a current player unless I personally know that player, and have permission to do so. I can not use any photos from a game on my club web site or facebook page unless it is an official photo taken by the university. These are some of the NCAA violations that we learned about this year. I am considered part of the university. She also said that anybody that donates even $1 to the athletic department is covered by NCAA rules. Another rule example that we discussed is selling of our tickets. If an alumni club gets a block of tickets, all unused tickets must go back to the box office. We may not sell them on stub hub, craig's list or anyplace. We can only sell them to someone we know is not a potential future athlete, because that would be another violation. So who can possibly know all of these rules? No one. The NCAA can walk into any school, and they will find violations. They are an out of control organization. The fact that every school needs someone on call 24/7 is a testament to this, and also the fact that the arms of the NCAA is so far reaching as to include each and every one of us is another.

wow...I don't understand the club/block of tix rule at all

 

[RF2044]

So who can possibly know all of these rules? No one. The NCAA can walk into any school, and they will find violations. They are an out of control organization. The fact that every school needs someone on call 24/7 is a testament to this, and also the fact that the arms of the NCAA is so far reaching as to include each and every one of us is another.

Great post!

Very informative--thank you for providing this in-depth, first person perspective.

 

[Flacusian]

Some of you guys remember this stuff extremely well. I suppose I will probably remember the last 12-13 seasons and on that way but graduating high school in the mid-90's and enjoying myself in excess into the early 00's has made that period in SU bball history much more muddled than it should be.

You wanna talk about muddled... please don't ask me anything at all about what transpired ANYWHERE in the 80's. It was a lost decade for me. Fortunately I cleaned things up and now have 24 years clean and I remember pretty much everything since '90. Watching the final 4 run with Otis Hill leading the charge was one of the most memorable campaigns every for the Orange. I will forever remember how much I enjoyed that run.

 

[OrangeDW]

Apparently Blackwell was a huge recruit for Illinois, though I have no recollection of that.

Our 1996 class was a big deal for us, but it rarely felt like we were in the running for top-20 recruits. We got Walton, I remember talk about Mateen Cleaves, but it was very different from the 1983-1991 period and very different from the Weaver/Murphy/current era.

We got well-regarded players (and good program fits), but not elite recruits. After Walton, I think Tony Bland was our next-highest-rated guy in the post-probation era.

Yeah, I remember Blackwell getting John Wallace comparisons coming out of HS. He was definitely a top 25 recruit. I remember Ramel Lloyd being in the top 25 range too. Hart was more like top 40-50. Going strictly off memory here though, but I'm pretty sure about it. Etan's ratings seemed to be more all over the place. Some had him around 50, some had him around 100. I remember one magazine called him Dedrick Thomas, another called him Derrick Thomas...and when he got to Cuse he was Etan Thomas.

I only remember it because I was real excited for that class. And yeah, the following years classes were not strong and the best players were very under the radar recruit like Damone Brown and Shumpert. The 96 class was definitely an exception in that era and was our first real strong class in awhile and the last one until the Edelin-Warrick-Pace-Forth-Konecny class.

 

[llandz]

wow...I don't understand the club/block of tix rule at all

Actually that was the one that made the most sense to me. My nephew played division one hockey in college. I know when I went to a game that there is a very strict policy with the tickets that the players get for their family or friends, and all tickets have to be picked up at the box office right before the game, with your id, and it must match the id that the player has provided. The player never lays hands on the tickets. He can not hand me the ticket. Once again this is the process that is laid out by the NCAA.

Tickets today have a high monetary value. They do not want a player trading their tickets for some sort of benefit or money. So if I have a ticket from our alumni group, and once again because of this I represent Syracuse University directly in the same way that an employee does, then where my ticket goes becomes equally as important. Let's say that a recruit is coming up with his family for an unofficial visit. He does not have enough tickets for everyone to attend the game. I take one of my tickets and sell it on Craig's List. He just happens to be the person who buys the ticket. I have now, as a representative of the university that he may attend, provided him something with a high monetary value or given him a benefit in that maybe the game was sold out. And how does the NCAA prove that there was nothing nefarious in that transaction or how do I prove that it is totally innocent?

Now for another stupid NCAA rule I learned while my nephew played hockey. He came to my house, and my son offered him a red bull to drink. Red bull is on the NCAA banned list as it is a stimulant. How does this differ from drinking 3 glasses of Mountain Dew? And yes I know Red Bull is not a healthy thing to drink in general, but that was not the intent. Otherwise they would tell you to have 4 servings of vegetables a day, 3 of fruits yadda yadda yadda.

 

[Niastri]

wow...I don't understand the club/block of tix rule at all

Only the NCAA is allowed to make money, so you have to give the tickets back instead of selling them yourself.

EDIT, I read the clarification post after the fact. The number of NCAA rules and possible violations is unfathomable.

 

[AZOrange]

Actually that was the one that made the most sense to me. My nephew played division one hockey in college. I know when I went to a game that there is a very strict policy with the tickets that the players get for their family or friends, and all tickets have to be picked up at the box office right before the game, with your id, and it must match the id that the player has provided. The player never lays hands on the tickets. He can not hand me the ticket. Once again this is the process that is laid out by the NCAA.

Tickets today have a high monetary value. They do not want a player trading their tickets for some sort of benefit or money. So if I have a ticket from our alumni group, and once again because of this I represent Syracuse University directly in the same way that an employee does, then where my ticket goes becomes equally as important. Let's say that a recruit is coming up with his family for an unofficial visit. He does not have enough tickets for everyone to attend the game. I take one of my tickets and sell it on Craig's List. He just happens to be the person who buys the ticket. I have now, as a representative of the university that he may attend, provided him something with a high monetary value or given him a benefit in that maybe the game was sold out. And how does the NCAA prove that there was nothing nefarious in that transaction or how do I prove that it is totally innocent?

Now for another stupid NCAA rule I learned while my nephew played hockey. He came to my house, and my son offered him a red bull to drink. Red bull is on the NCAA banned list as it is a stimulant. How does this differ from drinking 3 glasses of Mountain Dew? And yes I know Red Bull is not a healthy thing to drink in general, but that was not the intent. Otherwise they would tell you to have 4 servings of vegetables a day, 3 of fruits yadda yadda yadda.

I understand the player not doing it, but if the club buys them why can't they sell them. What's the diff between club and individual that donates 1 dollar to athletics? Sorry I'm prob missing something obvious.

 

[llandz]

I understand the player not doing it, but if the club buys them why can't they sell them. What's the diff between club and individual that donates 1 dollar to athletics? Sorry I'm prob missing something obvious.

Because we could accidentally sell them to a player or a potential player.

 

[CaptainJ]

Some of you guys remember this stuff extremely well. I suppose I will probably remember the last 12-13 seasons and on that way but graduating high school in the mid-90's and enjoying myself in excess into the early 00's has made that period in SU bball history much more muddled than it should be.

Wait... such a thing exists? I mean I believe anything is possible, but now you have planted a seed of thought that may cause me to re-evaluate my actions, even tonight. Come on man!