A victim of his own standards | Syracusefan.com

A victim of his own standards

pearl31

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I've seen this more of late, regarding the criticism of JB and growing calls for his retirement due to subpar results.

Like- how can you denigrate him and the state of the program if he built it?
Like- if it weren't for JB there would be no program to be upset about

I mean, I guess I kind of see the merit of this stance. But ultimately I think it fails inspection. I think it can quickly be at least countered, hypothetically anyway, if you consider what a candid, lucid JB would say about this behind closed doors (i.e. not on a microphone in public in full defensive mode). I think he would acknowledge that his teams' results from the past 8 or so years are not up to his own standards. I think he would acknowledge that a coach must be graded, must be judged, based on those results. I think he would agree (and I think he might even be on record as having said this?) that when a coach can't get the minimal-standard results anymore, they shouldn't be that team's coach any longer - whether by the standards established years ago by that coach or by recent standards set by someone else.

Thoughts on this concept of JB now emerging as a victim of his own standards?
 
No doubt -- if there was a hallmark of JB's career, it was consistency. 20 wins and the tournament.

He might not have had as many high points as we would prefer, but he never experienced the lows that even the likes of K and Calhoun did. Even steven.

But as you point out, he's failed to live up to that model of consistency over the last 8 years [59% compared to 74% previously].
 
JB has built extremely high standards and is the biggest reason for SU basketball becoming a national power, but he's not the only reason IMO. The Dome, the Big East/ACC and ESPN also played big roles. I don't think JB was too keen on moving to the Dome or joining the Big East initially (though in fairness he wasn't thee only coach.)
 
It's also important to note that college basketball has gone through huge changes during his tenure. Who knows what SU basketball would look like if there was no Jim Boeheim. When he started SU was a independent school and there was no Big East let alone the super conferences there are now. TV money was no where what is today. The NCAA tourney only had 32 teams in it when he started. Etc.
 
It's also important to note that college basketball has gone through huge changes during his tenure. Who knows what SU basketball would look like if there was no Jim Boeheim. When he started SU was a independent school and there was no Big East let alone the super conferences there are now. TV money was no where what is today. The NCAA tourney only had 32 teams in it when he started. Etc.
yep, good points
 
No doubt -- if there was a hallmark of JB's career, it was consistency. 20 wins and the tournament.

He might not have had as many high points as we would prefer, but he never experienced the lows that even the likes of K and Calhoun did. Even steven.

But as you point out, he's failed to live up to that model of consistency over the last 8 years [59% compared to 74% previously].
And even if you go by what others might judge as success - occasional greatness over consistently good - he has failed by almost every metric.

Unless you want to include the Final Four in 2016 where we went on a MIRACLE run the likes I have never seen vs. UVA, a Sweet 16 "run" doesn't make a great year.

I'd rather be ranked all season, a Top 4-5 seed and lose like Vermont in 2005, than be mediocre and make a Sweet 16 run.
 
I've seen this more of late, regarding the criticism of JB and growing calls for his retirement due to subpar results.

Like- how can you denigrate him and the state of the program if he built it?
Like- if it weren't for JB there would be no program to be upset about

I mean, I guess I kind of see the merit of this stance. But ultimately I think it fails inspection. I think it can quickly be at least countered, hypothetically anyway, if you consider what a candid, lucid JB would say about this behind closed doors (i.e. not on a microphone in public in full defensive mode). I think he would acknowledge that his teams' results from the past 8 or so years are not up to his own standards. I think he would acknowledge that a coach must be graded, must be judged, based on those results. I think he would agree (and I think he might even be on record as having said this?) that when a coach can't get the minimal-standard results anymore, they shouldn't be that team's coach any longer - whether by the standards established years ago by that coach or by recent standards set by someone else.

Thoughts on this concept of JB now emerging as a victim of his own standards?
Eh - we don't have to judge his recent performance against himself - he gets to claim all of it. Hence the longer leash. He's earned the right and has had enough success even in the last 8 years, to continue on IMO. By setting the bar he gets more benefit of the doubt, not less.

And we need to talk about things in his control and things outside of his control. CBB has shifted a lot in the past 10 years and not just for us. The ACC hasn't been as good top to bottom, even with UVA, Duke, and UNC carrying the banner at the top. Why?

Did we ever recover from the NCAA sanctions? Why or why not?

Is talent harder to come by? Why? HC and staff play a big part - but is there more to it?
 
How the heck do you figure?
I should have said I disagree - obviously it's subjective. For me...

A great regular season is fun but with way less eyeballs than the tournament. The buzz around a deep run is unlike the regular season that gets obscured by NFL and CFB. Losing to Vermont in round one is a lot of eyeballs around a loss. It's taking a good thing (a great season, a high seed!) and turning it into something to be embarrassed by, more publicly. All our recruits get to be asked about how they feel to see their future program go down in flames.

A late, unexpected run gives fans, neutral eyeballs, and recruits a positive to end the year on.
 
Were you on the debate team in HS?

I could have used somebody like you before i did my moot courts in law school. Somebody who likes arguing the counter to everything i say.
but you didn't say it
 
I think it’s safe to say we took for granted what JB accomplished when he always won 20 games and went to the tournament. We’re finding it’s not something to take for granted. Can the next coach do it? Maybe, but I doubt he ever can sustain it over twenty years.
 
but you didn't say it
1992 was a better season than 2018, 2021.

1992 was a 6 seed won BET and lost to a 3 seed second round.

2018, 2021 were double digit loss seasons we won one more 1 tournament game in those seasons.

I bet if i gave you a random year you couldn’t name 10 of the 16 sweet 16 teams from that tournament.
 
I think it’s safe to say we took for granted what JB accomplished when he always won 20 games and went to the tournament. We’re finding it’s not something to take for granted. Can the next coach do it? Maybe, but I doubt he ever can sustain it over twenty years.
Can the next coach at least get us top-6 ACC more years than not and a non-bubble NCAAT seed?
 
1992 was a better season than 2018, 2021.

1992 was a 6 seed won BET and lost to a 3 seed second round.

2018, 2021 were double digit loss seasons we won one more 1 tournament game in those seasons.

I bet if i gave you a random year you couldn’t name 10 of the 16 sweet 16 teams from that tournament.
There's no question about it.

The 99-00 team was awesome to follow, and lost in the Sweet 16.

By this metric, the 2018, 2021 teams are the same. It's just not true. Not even close.
 
Last edited:
There's no question about it.

The 98-99 team was awesome to follow, and lost in the Sweet 16.

By this metric, the 2018, 2021 teams are the same. It's just not true. Not even close.

Are you telling me that the 2021 season wasn't as exciting as 2010?
 
I think it’s safe to say we took for granted what JB accomplished when he always won 20 games and went to the tournament. We’re finding it’s not something to take for granted. Can the next coach do it? Maybe, but I doubt he ever can sustain it over twenty years.
You said win 20 "and" went to the tournament. I believe there were several seasons, at least, where the threshold was only met with post-season performance. Not that he didn't distinguish himself fairly well over the long term, but imagine if John Thompson, Lou Carnesecca and Rollie Massimino had been able to stick it out that long. Their numbers might have been comparable.
 

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