Amazing Statistics in honor of Coach K

[Cuseball]

For the entire season, here are the number of fouls called on three Duke stars:

Tre Jones = 46 fouls

Zion = 53 fouls

Barrett = 61 fouls

All three are absolutely stunning. The way Jones plays full court defense with a hand on the opposing point guard makes his totals quite unbelievable. However, Zion's total really shocks me because he is billed as the most physical player in the history of all of history. Apparently he has really mastered being a complete beast while never touching anyone.

Cuse!

 

[supp]

For the entire season, here are the number of fouls called on three Duke stars:

Tre Jones = 46 fouls

Zion = 53 fouls

Barrett = 61 fouls

All three are absolutely stunning. The way Jones plays full court defense with a hand on the opposing point guard makes his totals quite unbelievable. However, Zion's total really shocks me because he is billed as the most physical player in the history of all of history. Apparently he has really mastered being a complete beast while never touching anyone.

Cuse!

And they're all freshmen! Even the superstar freshmen we've had have struggled with foul trouble over the course of the season. These guys, though, are savvier than the most seasoned senior! Ridiculous. The refs buy into the hype as much as the fans do.

 

[Newhouser]

Jones number is ridiculous. He plays the old Jay Wright style - foul them every time, they can't call all of them.

 

[kingtidge]

Jones number is ridiculous. He plays the old Jay Wright style - foul them every time, they can't call all of them.

It's the bruce lee handcheck philosophy.

Hand check so fast they don't even see it.

It's the same premise why Mr. Miagi can catch a cluster fly with chopsticks.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

If you play aggressive defense, with your feet, and don't hack, you don't get called for a lot of fouls. Refs reward active defense. We play zone, so our technique out front is going to be viewed differently. Can't blame Tre Jones for that. Personally, i like the way he plays. Zion? I don't recall seeing Zion committing a lot of uncalled fouls. With all the constant outrage about refereeing on this board, i wonder if it's because we are just seeing the difference between how zone defenders engage with offensive players versus man defenders. It's a different perspective. Refereeing isn't easy, but the screams of bias don't seem particularly appropriate. We have dudes who foul just ridiculously. Marek goes over the back five times per game. Chukwu tries to block everything, and he's not 'super' nimble, and he gets called, maybe just for being awkward. It is what it is. But, somehow, there are complaints of 'ACC bias' even when we're playing Pitt, VTech, and BC. How does that work?

 

[Cheriehoop]

If you play aggressive defense, with your feet, and don't hack, you don't get called for a lot of fouls. Refs reward active defense. We play zone, so our technique out front is going to be viewed differently. Can't blame Tre Jones for that. Personally, i like the way he plays. Zion? I don't recall seeing Zion committing a lot of uncalled fouls. With all the constant outrage about refereeing on this board, i wonder if it's because we are just seeing the difference between how zone defenders engage with offensive players versus man defenders. It's a different perspective. Refereeing isn't easy, but the screams of bias don't seem particularly appropriate. We have dudes who foul just ridiculously. Marek goes over the back five times per game. Chukwu tries to block everything, and he's not 'super' nimble, and he gets called, maybe just for being awkward. It is what it is. But, somehow, there are complaints of 'ACC bias' even when we're playing Pitt, VTech, and BC. How does that work?

Why should the zone be judged differently? The rules for fouls don’t say one rule for man to man , another rule for zone. If handchecking, bodying up, reaching etc are fouls per the rules, why would man to man be allowed to do it and zones aren’t? If your point is that in reality it certainly appears that they are being subjectively judged differently by referees, I would agree but isn’t that an issue?Why would it be a referees job to punish or reward one defensive method over another?

 

[Cuseball]

If you play aggressive defense, with your feet, and don't hack, you don't get called for a lot of fouls. Refs reward active defense. We play zone, so our technique out front is going to be viewed differently. Can't blame Tre Jones for that. Personally, i like the way he plays. Zion? I don't recall seeing Zion committing a lot of uncalled fouls. With all the constant outrage about refereeing on this board, i wonder if it's because we are just seeing the difference between how zone defenders engage with offensive players versus man defenders. It's a different perspective. Refereeing isn't easy, but the screams of bias don't seem particularly appropriate. We have dudes who foul just ridiculously. Marek goes over the back five times per game. Chukwu tries to block everything, and he's not 'super' nimble, and he gets called, maybe just for being awkward. It is what it is. But, somehow, there are complaints of 'ACC bias' even when we're playing Pitt, VTech, and BC. How does that work?

well your point would hold more water if there was any difference vs last year when Duke played zone most of the time. This year Duke averages 15.8 fouls per game (and their three most important players average 5.5 of these). Last year they averaged 15.5 fouls per game while playing zone.

I agree with you that Chukwu deserves most of his fouls, Marek too and of course Sidibe is a foul machine

Cuse!

 

[rrlbees]

That’s 5 per game total for the three of them. 5. Suuuure.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Why should the zone be judged differently? The rules for fouls don’t say one rule for man to man , another rule for zone. If handchecking, bodying up, reaching etc are fouls per the rules, why would man to man be allowed to do it and zones aren’t? If your point is that in reality it certainly appears that they are being subjectively judged differently by referees, I would agree but isn’t that an issue?Why would it be a referees job to punish or reward one defensive method over another?

I'm not saying they're judged differently. I'm saying the actuality of zone versus man is different. In M2M, ostensibly, as a defender, you're constantly engaged with your assigned offensive player. Refs therefore expect body-body contact throughout that engagement. When you're in zone, and are flying at someone as a reaction—where at first there was a great deal of space between you and then there isn't—it can easily be seen as a more aggressive move, because the contact that might result comes suddenly and from distance.

The optics are different, and human nature won't let them be assessed equally. I don't see it as punishing or rewarding. It's just different. So... yeah, maybe they are judged differently. The nature of the beast. But, hey, if you're a coach and deciding to deploy a full time zone defense, you ought to be aware of those differences. That's not going to go away. There are plusses and minuses to any strategy. Gotta factor that in.

 

[rrlbees]

I'm not saying they're judged differently. I'm saying the actuality of zone versus man is different. In M2M, ostensibly, as a defender, you're constantly engaged with your assigned offensive player. Refs therefore expect body-body contact throughout that engagement. When you're in zone, and are flying at someone as a reaction—where at first there was a great deal of space between you and then there isn't—it can easily be seen as a more aggressive move, because the contact that might result comes suddenly and from distance.

The optics are different, and human nature won't let them be assessed equally. I don't see it as punishing or rewarding. It's just different. So... yeah, maybe they are judged differently. The nature of the beast. But, hey, if you're a coach and deciding to deploy a full time zone defense, you ought to be aware of those differences. That's not going to go away. There are plusses and minuses to any strategy. Gotta factor that in.

I’m pretty sure I read one time that more fouls are committed in m2m vs in zone. I think it said some coaches play zone to protect players from foul trouble.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

well your point would hold more water if there was any difference vs last year when Duke played zone most of the time. This year Duke averages 15.8 fouls per game (and their three most important players average 5.5 of these). Last year they averaged 15.5 fouls per game while playing zone.

I agree with you that Chukwu deserves most of his fouls, Marek too and of course Sidibe is a foul machine

Cuse!

There is very rarely a statistic that entirely encapsulates fact. It's just not that simple. If Duke has a team of 4.8 star athletes, might they also be more skilled in what they do? The level of competition is different each year, and the one-and-dones mean the personnel is different each year. Plus the OP's foul number on Zion doesn't seem to factor in that both Jones and Zion have been out for a number of games this year.

Whatever. To your point, maybe you have one—i dunno. But, 15.5 and 15.8 are close enough to me to be equal, given all other factors. Maybe this year's Duke team is just more skilled defensively than last year's. Which is why they 'had to resort to zone' last year.

How many do we commit? I'd expect it to be higher, because of skill level, not bias. Also, consider how many close games and how many intentional (clock) fouls, etc...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I’m pretty sure I read one time that more fouls are committed in m2m vs in zone. I think it said some coaches play zone to protect players from foul trouble.

Yeah, i think that has often been said. But i wonder if that was about protecting Centers/post players mostly? And also if the pace of play has a contributing factor. Fewer possessions/shot attempts = fewer fouls? Assuming there are more shot fouls than the other kinds. I don't know...

 

[Ghost]

For the entire season, here are the number of fouls called on three Duke stars:

Tre Jones = 46 fouls

Zion = 53 fouls

Barrett = 61 fouls

All three are absolutely stunning. The way Jones plays full court defense with a hand on the opposing point guard makes his totals quite unbelievable. However, Zion's total really shocks me because he is billed as the most physical player in the history of all of history. Apparently he has really mastered being a complete beast while never touching anyone.

Cuse!

That really is a pretty insane stat line. I'd make a joke, or assessment, but it's too staggering. They really don't get called for anything...Jones may have had 46 fouls last night.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I'm not saying they're judged differently. I'm saying the actuality of zone versus man is different. In M2M, ostensibly, as a defender, you're constantly engaged with your assigned offensive player. Refs therefore expect body-body contact throughout that engagement. When you're in zone, and are flying at someone as a reaction—where at first there was a great deal of space between you and then there isn't—it can easily be seen as a more aggressive move, because the contact that might result comes suddenly and from distance.

The optics are different, and human nature won't let them be assessed equally. I don't see it as punishing or rewarding. It's just different. So... yeah, maybe they are judged differently. The nature of the beast. But, hey, if you're a coach and deciding to deploy a full time zone defense, you ought to be aware of those differences. That's not going to go away. There are plusses and minuses to any strategy. Gotta factor that in.

Why would refs expect and not call body contact for man to man but not expect it and call it when defending within a zone area? The rules should be enforced equally while the effectiveness of the defensive strategy be allowed to play out and not skewed by referees judging contact calls differently for differing defensive strategies. Otherwise just outlaw zones if referees etc truly believe that zone defenses have innate advantages that necessitate handicapping games with judging foul calls differently.

 

[Jake]

I'm not saying they're judged differently. I'm saying the actuality of zone versus man is different. In M2M, ostensibly, as a defender, you're constantly engaged with your assigned offensive player. Refs therefore expect body-body contact throughout that engagement. When you're in zone, and are flying at someone as a reaction—where at first there was a great deal of space between you and then there isn't—it can easily be seen as a more aggressive move, because the contact that might result comes suddenly and from distance.

The optics are different, and human nature won't let them be assessed equally. I don't see it as punishing or rewarding. It's just different. So... yeah, maybe they are judged differently. The nature of the beast. But, hey, if you're a coach and deciding to deploy a full time zone defense, you ought to be aware of those differences. That's not going to go away. There are plusses and minuses to any strategy. Gotta factor that in.

I think this is an excellent explanation. Aggressive active zones are going to create more high speed collisions. Passive zones may not create any collisions at all.

 

[BludOrange]

Oshae has been just as aggressive as he was last year, if not more. He took 70 more ft's last season. He has gotten hacked just as much as the previous season, so why the lack of calls this season?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

How did you find this stat? I'd love to compare our players.

 

[BlackSquirrels]

Fouls per 40 minutes numbers are from sports-reference.com/cbb.

Frank 3.3
Battle 2.4
Buddy 2.7
Hughes 2.6
Oshae 2.6
Dolezaj 5.0
Chukwu 6.2
Sidibe 9.3

Jones 1.8
Barrett 2.2
O’Connell 1.6
Reddish 3.3
Zion 2.8
White 3.5
Bolden 4.4
Javin 6.3

Jones’s number looks a little low but other than that, I don’t see any issues. Apologies for any transcription errors.

 

[samspann1]

with experience comes respect from the officials.

oh wait...

 

[rrlbees]

Fouls per 40 minutes numbers are from sports-reference.com/cbb.

Frank 3.3
Battle 2.4
Buddy 2.7
Hughes 2.6
Oshae 2.6
Dolezaj 5.0
Chukwu 6.2
Sidibe 9.3

Jones 1.8
Barrett 2.2
O’Connell 1.6
Reddish 3.3
Zion 2.8
White 3.5
Bolden 4.4
Javin 6.3

Jones’s number looks a little low but other than that, I don’t see any issues. Apologies for any transcription errors.

That’s 27% more fouls on SU.

 

[OrangeDW]

Fouls per 40 minutes numbers are from sports-reference.com/cbb.

Frank 3.3
Battle 2.4
Buddy 2.7
Hughes 2.6
Oshae 2.6
Dolezaj 5.0
Chukwu 6.2
Sidibe 9.3

Jones 1.8
Barrett 2.2
O’Connell 1.6
Reddish 3.3
Zion 2.8
White 3.5
Bolden 4.4
Javin 6.3

Jones’s number looks a little low but other than that, I don’t see any issues. Apologies for any transcription errors.

A little low? That kid grabs all game long. He should have one of the highest numbers.

Everyone decided he’s friggin Gary Payton, and he gets to do whatever he wants.

Scrubby, spazzy, basic little guard. Aaron Craft Jr.

 

[BlackSquirrels]

That’s 27% more fouls on SU.

Uh, the team with less fouls is more athletic and does not have Sidibe, but I’m gonna take off because I violated one of my life rules: discussing basketball officiating on the Internet.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I'm not saying they're judged differently. I'm saying the actuality of zone versus man is different. In M2M, ostensibly, as a defender, you're constantly engaged with your assigned offensive player. Refs therefore expect body-body contact throughout that engagement. When you're in zone, and are flying at someone as a reaction—where at first there was a great deal of space between you and then there isn't—it can easily be seen as a more aggressive move, because the contact that might result comes suddenly and from distance.

The optics are different, and human nature won't let them be assessed equally. I don't see it as punishing or rewarding. It's just different. So... yeah, maybe they are judged differently. The nature of the beast. But, hey, if you're a coach and deciding to deploy a full time zone defense, you ought to be aware of those differences. That's not going to go away. There are plusses and minuses to any strategy. Gotta factor that in.

That's a really interesting point. Never thought of that.

 

[supp]

If you play aggressive defense, with your feet, and don't hack, you don't get called for a lot of fouls. Refs reward active defense. We play zone, so our technique out front is going to be viewed differently. Can't blame Tre Jones for that. Personally, i like the way he plays. Zion? I don't recall seeing Zion committing a lot of uncalled fouls. With all the constant outrage about refereeing on this board, i wonder if it's because we are just seeing the difference between how zone defenders engage with offensive players versus man defenders. It's a different perspective. Refereeing isn't easy, but the screams of bias don't seem particularly appropriate. We have dudes who foul just ridiculously. Marek goes over the back five times per game. Chukwu tries to block everything, and he's not 'super' nimble, and he gets called, maybe just for being awkward. It is what it is. But, somehow, there are complaints of 'ACC bias' even when we're playing Pitt, VTech, and BC. How does that work?

Straw man. No one said ACC bias. People said that UNC/Duke have a ref advantage. The league was famous for that even before we arrived.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Straw man. No one said ACC bias. People said that UNC/Duke have a ref advantage. The league was famous for that even before we arrived.

Feel free to scour the board to not find posts that assert a "southern" and/or "ACC" bias against us. The "Duke bias" is another thing.