Blaming the forwards

FrancoPizza

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once the ball gets in the high post the forwards have an almost impossible job trying to guess who to cover. But I guess it’s just about effort, right Jim? Allowing guard penetration and easy entry into the high posts doesn’t have anything to do with it.

Jim is not stupid. He says things. He knows the locals won’t call him out and we’re too irrelevant for the national media to care.
 

Dcuse

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Totally agree. Duke just planted this 9 foot guy with the 12 foot wingspan behind the zone. Now the forwards have to 1. cover the guys in the corner. 2. whether the shot is from their side or the other, somehow outrebound a guy a foot and a half taller who already has total box out position on you. I admit to being flabbergasted at how in the world we have the best 3 point defense in the league. It has to be 2 or three games where an opponent just plain missed wide open shots. I'm too lazy to look it up.
 

Chip

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Jim is not stupid. He says things. He knows the locals won’t call him out

The locals are calling him out, and he knows it. That's why he said "everyone says it's the guards" and went on to back the bus over the forwards only. He says none of us can really know what they're trying to do on defense because we're not at practice.

Apparently the 2-3 defense we've all been watching for at least the last 25 years is some form of linear algebra.

When a pass goes from one wide open Duke player at the top of the key to another wide open Duke player in the high corner, while Joe stands in one place with his arms down and stares at both of them, he's doing the right thing. Griffin and Q are failing on that play.
 
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Scooch

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The locals are calling him out, and he knows it. That's why he said "everyone says it's the guards" and went on to back the bus over the forwards only. He says none of us can really know what they're trying to do on defense because we're not at practice.

Apparently the 2-3 defense we've all been watching for at least the last 25 years is some form of linear algebra.

When a pass goes from one wide open Duke player at the top of the key to another wide open Duke player in the high corner, while Joe stands in one place with his arms down and stares at both of them, he's doing the right thing. Griffin and Q are failing on that play.
I'm no hall of fame coach.

I'm just an unfrozen caveman message board poster, and your modern basketball ways frighten me.

But I do know that the point of defense is to stop the other team from scoring easily. And we're pretty friggin' atrocious at that.
 

CuseFaninVT

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It's amazing to me that since Buddy and Joe have become our guards, their area of responsibility on defense seems to have shrunk, thereby expanding the required territory the forwards have to cover. And JB still blames the forwards. Get some guys with decent foot speed and length and the zone is serviceable. But short guys like Joe, and slow guys like Buddy will allow the zone to be its most effective.
 

upperdeck

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if you cant see how bad the forwards are then go ahead and complain about the guards and the coach.. defense is about positioning, reaction/ anticipation.. its not gonna work every time, but you can work your butt off every time. still the center forwards need to work as a unit and thats not happening.
 

CuseFaninVT

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if you cant see how bad the forwards are then go ahead and complain about the guards and the coach.. defense is about positioning, reaction/ anticipation.. its not gonna work every time, but you can work your butt off every time. still the center forwards need to work as a unit and thats not happening.
Center forwards need to work as a unit, yet nothing about the guards and forwards needing to work as a unit.

Your takes make me scratch my head more often than not.
 

upperdeck

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its a zone.. when do you teach guards and forwards to work as a unit? never taught zone that way , never saw it taught that way in coaches conventions/camps,. Guards have issues too.. But most of the time they are at least going the right way, they are just too slow..
 

CuseFaninVT

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its a zone.. when do you teach guards and forwards to work as a unit? never taught zone that way , never saw it taught that way in coaches conventions/camps,. Guards have issues too.. But most of the time they are at least going the right way, they are just too slow..
You really need to start using the reply button.

Guards and forwards have to work together for our zone to work. Transitioning the wing shooter from the guard to the forward or vice versa happens all the time.
 

upperdeck

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You really need to start using the reply button.

Guards and forwards have to work together for our zone to work. Transitioning the wing shooter from the guard to the forward or vice versa happens all the time.
Thats fine. We dont consider that being a unit.. Thats more like hand off.. JB doesnt do that as much though since he either wants his guards to deal with it, or inverts the forwards up higher.

My issue with the forwards is effort.. you can get beat on the boards but you better give effort on the boards.. Size in rebounding is hard to over come, but they never user their feet, they dont seem to know to how to pivot or slide and they forget where the rebounders are coming from all the time..
 

FrancoPizza

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Guards have issues too.. But most of the time they are at least going the right way, they are just too slow..
So if they stink up top because they will never be athletically good enough that’s ok and somehow this does not affect the rest of the defense? How come JB never makes that observation? Don’t tell me he’s trying to protect their feelings.
 

SWC75

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I liked it better when the forwards guarded the corners, the center guarded the basket and the guards kept them out of the paint. But maybe the rise in three point shooting makes that impossible - we've got to extend too far out, can't keep them out of the paint and the center has to come out, forcing the forwards to fill the gap. It's like a fire drill.
 
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Dcuse

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Thats fine. We dont consider that being a unit.. Thats more like hand off.. JB doesnt do that as much though since he either wants his guards to deal with it, or inverts the forwards up higher.

My issue with the forwards is effort.. you can get beat on the boards but you better give effort on the boards.. Size in rebounding is hard to over come, but they never user their feet, they dont seem to know to how to pivot or slide and they forget where the rebounders are coming from all the time..
You seem to be confused. The defense we play pulls everybody out to the perimeter at some points which puts them in an almost impossible position of being boxed out by the OFFENSIVE player most of the time. I watched the game closely and never saw a lack of effort from Griffin or Guerrier. Duke hit shots from 5 feet behind the arc which extends everything. Pivoting or sliding... don't know what your talking about...where the rebounders are coming from? You'll see them on your way to the rim in front of you because your asked to cover the guy in the corner at the same time.
 

orangecuse

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The locals are calling him out, and he knows it. That's why he said "everyone says it's the guards" and went on to back the bus over the forwards only. He says none of us can really know what they're trying to do on defense because we're not at practice.

Apparently the 2-3 defense we've all been watching for at least the last 25 years is some form of linear algebra.

When a pass goes from one wide open Duke player at the top of the key to another wide open Duke player in the high corner, while Joe stands in one place with his arms down and stares at both of them, he's doing the right thing. Griffin and Q are failing on that play.

What I'd really like to know, is how in the world Duke managed to be at practice? ;):)
 

ar inj

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Maybe when a player sees nobody else playing D, they finally finally say, "Why should I play D?" and "Oh yeah, coach which wide open guy would you prefer I run at while waiving my arms?"

Maybe instead the Coach should not sit back and say we are going to play zone no matter until you keep making enough open shots that we pull out the trunk monkey.
 

007

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its a zone.. when do you teach guards and forwards to work as a unit? never taught zone that way , never saw it taught that way in coaches conventions/camps,. Guards have issues too.. But most of the time they are at least going the right way, they are just too slow..
Interesting take. I have never seen ANY defense coached or attended coaching clinics where there was not total coordination taught between all 5 players, man or zone. Ever. And most especially in a zone. Every single rotation is predicated on where the ball is, the alignment of the offense, AND what the other 4 defenders are supposed to be doing. The strong and weak side Gs and Fs absolutely need to, as you put it, work as a "unit." This isn't even remotely debatable.
 

upperdeck

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You seem to be confused. The defense we play pulls everybody out to the perimeter at some points which puts them in an almost impossible position of being boxed out by the OFFENSIVE player most of the time. I watched the game closely and never saw a lack of effort from Griffin or Guerrier. Duke hit shots from 5 feet behind the arc which extends everything. Pivoting or sliding... don't know what your talking about...where the rebounders are coming from? You'll see them on your way to the rim in front of you because your asked to cover the guy in the corner at the same time.
no.. thats not how rebounding works.. you do 1 of 2 things.. you block out a man or you go to the ball.. you dont just stand wherever you are and hope it comes to you.. if you are locked out then you need to create space you dont just try to fight thru bigger guys. griffin gonna have trouble but Quincy is big enough. Marek at least learned he cant get there so he tries to tip things to keep it alive.
 

City of Cuse

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Last night was an awful display of the zone. I thought coach had the forwards coming up top to early and it set the tone. They obviously shot lights out, but they were mostly wide open looks. You give competent shooters time to setup and shoot they are going to make a high percentage.

After three passes and Marek is already in the corner the defense is screwed. There were also times the opposite forward was playing high and let an easy basket go in the middle. Then when they were low and a cross court pass happened they couldn't close out on the wing. It was a mess. It seemed like the frontcourt was running for their lives every possession.

I'm not going to claim to know .01 percent as much about the 2-3 as JB does, but you can't have a guard kind of playing the wing and the forward kind of playing a wing. The first few possessions of the game, literally the 3rd pass Marek has to fly out and guard the corner, that can't happen with 24 secs left on the shot clock. The guard needs to get there quicker and the forward needs to be smarter.

Screenshot_20210223-120702_YouTube.jpg
 
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City of Cuse

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Interesting take. I have never seen ANY defense coached or attended coaching clinics where there was not total coordination taught between all 5 players, man or zone. Ever. And most especially in a zone. Every single rotation is predicated on where the ball is, the alignment of the offense, AND what the other 4 defenders are supposed to be doing. The strong and weak side Gs and Fs absolutely need to, as you put it, work as a "unit." This isn't even remotely debatable.
Agreed. I'd be curious to see how someone coaches any defense in groups. Ball, man, help, teammates positioning, etc; it seems it would be very difficult to split into groups and teach it without the whole.
 

FrancoPizza

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Last night was an awful display of the zone. I thought coach had the forwards coming up top to early and it set the tone. They obviously shot lights out, but they were mostly wide open looks. You give competent shooters time to setup and shoot they are going to make a high percentage.

After three passes and Marek is already in the corner the defense is screwed. There were also times the opposite forward was playing high and let an easy basket go in the middle. Then when they were low and a cross court pass happened they could close out on the wing. It was a mess. It seemed like the frontcourt was running for their lives every possession.

I'm not going to claim to know .01 percent as much about the 2-3 as JB does, but you can't have a guard kind of playing the wing and the forward kind of playing a wing. The first few possessions of the game, literally the 3rd pass Marek has to fly out and guard the corner, that can't happen with 24 secs left on the shot clock. The guard needs to get there quicker and the forward needs to be smarter.

View attachment 196972
This happens on every other possession basically. Love how buddy is guarding air on that play. Lateral quickness is crucial up top to prevent the forwards from overcompensating and leaving huge gaps. If the center needs to fly to the corner like winslet on the titanic then the play is already busted.
 

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