College football is about talent. Pro football is about coaching

[Alsacs]

The NFL draft shows the level of talent in a program.
Lower rated players can develop and become first round draft picks but college football is all about talent.
Speed and athleticism is what our football program needs.

I do believe André Cisco will be a top 3 round draft pick but the fact we haven’t had a skill position draft pick in the top 3 rounds of the draft since Donovan McNabb shows one of the reasons we have struggled as a program.

Our last RB in the top 3 rounds of the NFL draft is Rob Konrad and our last WR in the top 3 rounds was Kevin Johnson:

We need speed and athleticism at the WR/RB positions.
Our defense/OL NFL draft picks have been there.

The holes in the program have been at the skill position level.

Guys like Mike Williams and Delone Carter are 9-10 years ago now.

It’s on Dino now.

 

[supp]

The NFL draft shows the level of talent in a program.
Lower rated players can develop and become first round draft picks but college football is all about talent.
Speed and athleticism is what our football program needs.

I do believe André Cisco will be a top 3 round draft pick but the fact we haven’t had a skill position draft pick in the top 3 rounds of the draft since Donovan McNabb shows one of the reasons we have struggled as a program.

Our last RB in the top 3 rounds of the NFL draft is Rob Konrad and our last WR in the top 3 rounds was Kevin Johnson:

We need speed and athleticism at the WR/RB positions.
Our defense/OL NFL draft picks have been there.

The holes in the program have been at the skill position level.

Guys like Mike Williams and Delone Carter are 9-10 years ago now.

It’s on Dino now.

If that's the case, watch out for Jeff Hafley. But I think it is too simplistic.

 

[baggerbob]

The NFL draft shows the level of talent in a program.
Lower rated players can develop and become first round draft picks but college football is all about talent.
Speed and athleticism is what our football program needs.

I do believe André Cisco will be a top 3 round draft pick but the fact we haven’t had a skill position draft pick in the top 3 rounds of the draft since Donovan McNabb shows one of the reasons we have struggled as a program.

Our last RB in the top 3 rounds of the NFL draft is Rob Konrad and our last WR in the top 3 rounds was Kevin Johnson:

We need speed and athleticism at the WR/RB positions.
Our defense/OL NFL draft picks have been there.

The holes in the program have been at the skill position level.

Guys like Mike Williams and Delone Carter are 9-10 years ago now.

It’s on Dino now.

Trill and Iffy have size and speed, just the type of players the NFL loves. Both with 2 more years could be the best since Darius and Jones.

 

[TexanMark]

Alsacs you pretty much nailed it. Losing out on Ray Rice, Gronk, etc...have hurt.

Can Dino find that game changer in a skill position?

 

[SoBristol]

I am not convinced you can isolate skill positions (WR and RB) as the main culprit in the Dino years. In 2018, Dungey and his offensive unit moved the ball and put up plenty of points, though much of that depended on Dungey. In 2019, the OL and shaky QB play were the problem, along with lack of size and strength at NT and DT.

Dino hasn’t recruited bigs as well as we need, other than transfers Robinson and Martin. The RB and TE positions for 2020 are solid and deep (not elite,if that is what you mean), though the WR unit is stuffed with average Joes.

 

[OrangeAl]

I wholeheartedly agree we need to upgrade our talent level. Does anyone disagree??

 

[SoBristol]

I wholeheartedly agree we need to upgrade our talent level. Does anyone disagree??

Dino has shown he can win occasionally (10 win season in 2018) with a do everything QB, and good veteran starters in key roles (both OTs, NT and both DEs) combined with surprising young talent (Cisco, for example).

But only when everything comes together. Not consistently without an upgrade in recruiting at key spots.

 

[All4SU]

Agree that college is mostly recruiting and NFL is mostly coaching. The disparity in talent in the nfl is small. The disparity in talent in college is tremendous. That said, the difference between consistent success in college and consistent mediocrity is greatly impacted by coaching. Systems that are unique at placing certain types of recruits in position for success, instilling desire to work harder, developing players, all enter the equation.
Just the same, great players make great college coaches.

 

[orangecuse]

Agree that college is mostly recruiting and NFL is mostly coaching. The disparity in talent in the nfl is small. The disparity in talent in college is tremendous. That said, the difference between consistent success in college and consistent mediocrity is greatly impacted by coaching. Systems that are unique at placing certain types of recruits in position for success, instilling desire to work harder, developing players, all enter the equation.
Just the same, great players make great college coaches.

Indeed. And, is why I'm a fan of a QB that is a threat to run. It's not, IMO, a coincidence that our best years in the modern era of football (along with Dungey in '18) game with dual threat QB's in Graves, McPherson and McNabb. It's a talent equalizer for a program that has for two decades and counting struggled immensely in getting high level quality recruits to somewhat level the playing field.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Coach Mac would agree with this. that said, Syracuse's best teams have always been when they develop their talent within the program, when we have a really good group of seniors we have had some really good teams. Best two teams we have had the past 10 years have had plenty of them. Sure we need to recruit the best athletes we can and develop them as they go through the program.

Syracuse will never recruit a plethora of elite talent on paper regardless of who coaches here.

In 2012, none of our top RB's or WR's were elite athletes but they all knew how to play the game. Sales and Lemon could really play the game, great college receivers.

Nobody will dispute the fact that it's on Dino now but recruiting expectations have always been out of whack when it comes to this program. For a coach to have consistent success here they need to be able to develop 3 star talent along with some under the radar talent pretty cut and dry, IMO. The strength has to be in finding these kids without missing on a bunch of kids that simply aren't talented enough to contribute at this level because depth is and has always been an issue too.

The DT from Rochester in the class of 2021 that people are discussing on the recruiting forum is a classic example of this.

 

[elimunelson]

Coach Mac would agree with this. that said, Syracuse's best teams have always been when they develop their talent within the program, when we have a really good group of seniors we have had some really good teams. Best two teams we have had the past 10 years have had plenty of them. Sure we need to recruit the best athletes we can and develop them as they go through the program.

Syracuse will never recruit a plethora of elite talent on paper regardless of who coaches here.

In 2012, none of our top RB's or WR's were elite athletes but they all knew how to play the game. Sales and Lemon could really play the game, great college receivers.

Nobody will dispute the fact that it's on Dino now but recruiting expectations have always been out of whack when it comes to this program. For a coach to have consistent success here they need to be able to develop 3 star talent along with some under the radar talent pretty cut and dry, IMO. The strength has to be in finding these kids without missing on a bunch of kids that simply aren't talented enough to contribute at this level because depth is and has always been an issue too.

The DT from Rochester in the class of 2021 that people are discussing on the recruiting forum is a classic example of this.

never is a strong word. I think the Konrad year we were in the top 30 recruiting. If we can get to that point again we can be very dangerous. The post corona world may mean we have to really close the gate around tri state area and sell Syracuse to people who don't want to leave

 

[IthacaBarrel]

never is a strong word. I think the Konrad year we were in the top 30 recruiting. If we can get to that point again we can be very dangerous. The post corona world may mean we have to really close the gate around tri state area and sell Syracuse to people who don't want to leave

OK, Highly unlikely as there is a ton more competition for the types of kids we were getting back then too. The brand was a lot stronger back then too. The tri state era is over fished and the strength in numbers are down South. I think what this current staff is doing as far as geographic area is just fine

 

[BEAR'S DAD]

The NFL draft shows the level of talent in a program.
Lower rated players can develop and become first round draft picks but college football is all about talent.
Speed and athleticism is what our football program needs.

I do believe André Cisco will be a top 3 round draft pick but the fact we haven’t had a skill position draft pick in the top 3 rounds of the draft since Donovan McNabb shows one of the reasons we have struggled as a program.

Our last RB in the top 3 rounds of the NFL draft is Rob Konrad and our last WR in the top 3 rounds was Kevin Johnson:

We need speed and athleticism at the WR/RB positions.
Our defense/OL NFL draft picks have been there.

The holes in the program have been at the skill position level.

Guys like Mike Williams and Delone Carter are 9-10 years ago now.

It’s on Dino now.

We need 2 get a coach 2 double down on Dade & Broward County with Monroe like Coach West & let West talk to the kids @ Miami Central, Northwestern, Carol City, Hialeah, & Norland because he has "The BACKGROUND" to relate. I even had an assistant principal at one school tell me "McKinley...Syracuse can get what they want if they send a coach who is NOT a "MEOW," because our kids can see through that B.S."

Remember: as a recruiter YOU WILL ALWAYS ATTRACT WHAT YOU ARE. Which is why the best recruiters have boardline violent backgrounds or anger management issues but they bring in game changing skill position kids, because those kids relate to that recruiter. No kid wants to play for a coach if they think the coach is "Soft".
Great athletes want to play for TOUGH NONSENSE COACHES because those guys want 2 win at all cost & great players can relate to them.

 

[Alsacs]

We need 2 get a coach 2 double down on Dade & Broward County with Monroe like Coach West & let West talk to the kids @ Miami Central, Northwestern, Carol City, Hialeah, & Norland because he has "The BACKGROUND" to relate. I even had an assistant principal at one school tell me "McKinley...Syracuse can get what they want if they send a coach who is NOT a "MEOW," because our kids can see through that B.S."

Remember: as a recruiter YOU WILL ALWAYS ATTRACT WHAT YOU ARE. Which is why the best recruiters have boardline violent backgrounds or anger management issues but they bring in game changing skill position kids, because those kids relate to that recruiter. No kid wants to play for a coach if they think the coach is "Soft".
Great athletes want to play for TOUGH NONSENSE COACHES because those guys want 2 win at all cost & great players can relate to them.

We have NFL draft picks at pretty much every position and in the first round the last decade but WR/RB. If that region has tons of skill position talent I would agree with this.

We just need those positions the most.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

We need 2 get a coach 2 double down on Dade & Broward County with Monroe like Coach West & let West talk to the kids @ Miami Central, Northwestern, Carol City, Hialeah, & Norland because he has "The BACKGROUND" to relate. I even had an assistant principal at one school tell me "McKinley...Syracuse can get what they want if they send a coach who is NOT a "MEOW," because our kids can see through that B.S."

Remember: as a recruiter YOU WILL ALWAYS ATTRACT WHAT YOU ARE. Which is why the best recruiters have boardline violent backgrounds or anger management issues but they bring in game changing skill position kids, because those kids relate to that recruiter. No kid wants to play for a coach if they think the coach is "Soft".
Great athletes want to play for TOUGH NONSENSE COACHES because those guys want 2 win at all cost & great players can relate to them.

I think good recruiters come in all shapes and sizes and backgrounds for that matter. It's a sales type position and it also depends what product you are pushing. No different in the business world. Know your customer and know your product, strengths and weaknesses because the questions will come because your competitors will make them aware of the weaknesses

 

[tipphill]

I wholeheartedly agree we need to upgrade our talent level. Does anyone disagree??

dino is not a very good recruiter. do we have asst. coaches who are considered very good recruiters???? what do people see as our biggest recruiting problem ???? i think its the WEATHER and small fanbase/ support. just saying

 

[orange_in_VA]

dino is not a very good recruiter. do we have asst. coaches who are considered very good recruiters???? what do people see as our biggest recruiting problem ???? i think its the WEATHER and small fanbase/ support. just saying

I don't think its fair to say Dino isn't a good recruiter. Syracuse is a really hard sell in so many ways. Even with the disadvantages the program has, his staff has been able to bring in more high end kids then we've seen in a very long time. Just gotta find the right underrecruited kids to build depth because thats the reality of recruiting to this program.

I think what Marrone and staff were able to pull off in recruiting was more impressive because of how many hits they got out of kids with little/no offers. I think that could be related to more local connections but also because that staff was filled with NFL guys that might have been able to identify high-ceiling talent better. I dont know. Just theorizing here.

Back to the point, I think Dino and his staff would look like good recruiters at almost any other P5 program in the country. Syracuse just is what it is right now. Not saying recruiting can't get even better, but it's definitely an uphill battle.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I don't think its fair to say Dino isn't a good recruiter. Syracuse is a really hard sell in so many ways. Even with the disadvantages the program has, his staff has been able to bring in more high end kids then we've seen in a very long time. Just gotta find the right underrecruited kids to build depth because thats the reality of recruiting to this program.

I think what Marrone and staff were able to pull off in recruiting was more impressive because of how many hits they got out of kids with little/no offers. I think that could be related to more local connections but also because that staff was filled with NFL guys that might have been able to identify high-ceiling talent better. I dont know. Just theorizing here.

Back to the point, I think Dino and his staff would look like good recruiters at almost any other P5 program in the country. Syracuse just is what it is right now. Not saying recruiting can't get even better, but it's definitely an uphill battle.

Well said. Recruiting has been an uphill battle at Syracuse for at least the last 20 years at some point you have to look at the program not the guys selling it, there are some serious short comings when trying to sell the university and the program. Is what it is for now.

 

[tipphill]

Well said. Recruiting has been an uphill battle at Syracuse for at least the last 20 years at some point you have to look at the program not the guys selling it, there are some serious short comings when trying to sell the university and the program. Is what it is for now.

granted, but what do you think they are???

 

[IthacaBarrel]

granted, but what do you think they are???

Money, facilities, increased competition, turnover, ( Bad hires like GROB and Shafer) geography and a complete lack of success over a long period of time. AD turnover as well. Switching up leadership every few years isn't great for building something solid. Dino is 23-26 at Syracuse. Not great but not horrible. I would love to see him put a couple 7-5 seasons together and show some consistency.

With regard to Dino he has a lot of turnover past 2-3 seasons as well, like to see more continuity in general on his staff too. Assistants will come and go but he has to get the OC/ DC shored up which he may have done

 

[sufandu]

Indeed. And, is why I'm a fan of a QB that is a threat to run. It's not, IMO, a coincidence that our best years in the modern era of football (along with Dungey in '18) game with dual threat QB's in Graves, McPherson and McNabb. It's a talent equalizer for a program that has for two decades and counting struggled immensely in getting high level quality recruits to somewhat level the playing field.

I also don't think it's coincidence that all recent national chanpionship teams and the most recent superbowl winning team have had a qb that was a run threat. It seems that most coaches have finally caught up to what we knew in the '80's. That will probably make it harder for us to recruit them. The guys that the factories used to switch to CB or WR are now getting their shot to play QB at those schools.

 

[sufandu]

Money, facilities, increased competition, turnover, ( Bad hires like GROB and Shafer) geography and a complete lack of success over a long period of time. AD turnover as well. Switching up leadership every few years isn't great for building something solid. Dino is 23-26 at Syracuse. Not great but not horrible. I would love to see him put a couple 7-5 seasons together and show some consistency.

With regard to Dino he has a lot of turnover past 2-3 seasons as well, like to see more continuity in general on his staff too. Assistants will come and go but he has to get the OC/ DC shored up which he may have done

Yeah, it's a little like a number of common health problems. You have uncontrollable factors like family history/genetics and you have controllables like diet and activity. We can't control geography and will probably never have the same access to money as many of our competitors. But with the right guy in place, I think most of us think Dino is, hopefully we can get the controllable factors moving in the right direction and generate some momentum that can be built upon.

It would be great to hit a couple of Cisco like home runs with skill position guys. Those types of players just generate so much more national buzz than other positions. That could really accelerate things.