Downward spiral | Syracusefan.com

Downward spiral

Brooky03

Hubris is underrated
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I see a lot of posts refer to a 9 year downward spiral and I think it’s worth noting that, at minimum, those first 3 years should objectively not count against JB/the staff. This is operating on the premise that the NCAA sanctions were absurd and unjust. If you think the NCAA had a good point, I have no interest in entertaining or engaging in that argument.

The scholarship sanctions mattered and the recruiter sanctions mattered more. Those lasted through 2017 (2019 for the schollies). 10/11 vs 13 scholarship players is not a trivial difference. 2 vs 4 recruiters is a huge difference. The effects of the sanctions were tangible.

A harsh interpretation would put the 2017-18 season as the marker of the decline. So, 6 seasons. A lenient interpretation, since you don’t recover immediately after sanctions, would be the 2019-20 season. 4 seasons, coinciding with the Buddy Boeheim experience.

Because of the sanctions, we couldn’t carry full squads. Despite not using a deep bench, schools still need those developmental players and that depth for when unexpected departures happen. So, on top of getting less talented recruits because we couldn’t put recruiters on the road to show love and to scout, we had fewer of them. If somebody left early, we had nothing behind them and had to scramble for transfers or rely on freshman 3-4 stars to play big minutes. There was a razor thin margin of error and any recruiting miss was death. That’s hard to overcome for any staff.

I know this is taboo to talk about because we’re supposed to pretend the sanctions weren’t that big of a deal and they’re just an ‘excuse’ and didn’t have long-term effects, but that’s the way I see it. A decline is still a decline, but I think we’re talking about 4-6 years, not 9, which is more than a semantic difference.

What we are seeing with this class is what an improvement in depth can get you. Taylor and Brown look like they will be really solid contributors here for multiple years. Either or both could easily turn in to excellent starters (as I see it). Without the full arsenal of scholarships, they’re the types of players who might not have been here.

We still have issues. Guard depth is scary, especially with no 2023 recruits. Center is going to be a question mark, assuming Jesse is outta here, but at least we have Centers on the roster. The staff is far from absolved from responsibility.

Additional points: I think the Hopkins departure hurt a lot more than any of us realized at the time. I think the ACC during most of that 2017-2021 stretch was more difficult than the old Big East at its peak, so more losses would be expected.

Just had to get this off my chest. Carry on.
 
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Can we just keep things in the respective threads on the same topic? There are like 5 other threads related on this.

Also everyone has their opinion. Sanctions may have been unfair but we self reported and ultimately did it to ourselves and the NCAA locked their chops and came down hard.

Qualifying the downward spiral with excuses is no different than putting the accountability of many losses on the officials. They suck, but the team and stewardship is why we are where we are.

There are other programs with rough patches including NCAA related that barely lost a step. The program can course correct and take all the steps to do so or it sit in purgatory while apathy and reduced relevance sets in more every year.

AW alone can't fix all that even with the recruiting boost. It's a good start for sure.
 
Can we just keep things in the respective threads on the same topic? There are like 5 other threads related on this.

Also everyone has their opinion. Sanctions may have been unfair but we self reported and ultimately did it to ourselves and the NCAA locked their chops and came down hard.

Qualifying the downward spiral with excuses is no different than putting the accountability of many losses on the officials. They suck, but the team and stewardship is why we are where we are.

There are other programs with rough patches including NCAA related that barely lost a step. The program can course correct and take all the steps to do so or it sit in purgatory while apathy and reduced relevance sets in more every year.

There isn’t another thread on this topic
 
The sanctions mattered most in that, in my view at least, they caused JB to extend his career out of spite. This in turn caused Hopkins to leave rather than stay to become the next HC. Whether or not Hop would have been a great coach, he certainly was a great recruiter and his loss has been devastating.
 



That's on the first page of the forum alone.
 
The sanctions mattered most in that, in my view at least, they caused JB to extend his career out of spite. This in turn caused Hopkins to leave rather than stay to become the next HC. Whether or not Hop would have been a great coach, he certainly was a great recruiter and his loss has been devastating.
The guy who runs the program, put the program into two probations.

The second probation is the cause of him staying and being a worse coach/recruiter.

What a world we live in
 
He was coach when we have been hit with two major sanctions. Those are on him. The buck stops with him. He has made sure to have full control of every aspect of the program to the point where he apparently can't be fired.
 
The sanctions mattered most in that, in my view at least, they caused JB to extend his career out of spite. This in turn caused Hopkins to leave rather than stay to become the next HC. Whether or not Hop would have been a great coach, he certainly was a great recruiter and his loss has been devastating.

Mostly agreed. His legacy would have been better served if he left when Hopkins left. I don’t know if Syracuse would be in better shape now or not, given the condition we were in in 2017 and Hop’s record at Washington, but JB would be looked upon more favorably for certain.

fwiw, I don’t think the school was in a position to force him out at that time, nor do I think they should have. The sanctions almost exclusively fell on the Athletics Department and whomever was in charge of compliance. The NCAA hit JB with ‘failure to monitor’ because that’s the only bat they have to swing. Almost none of it was under JB’s purview, so the school couldn’t in good conscience hold him accountable for the violations and the fallout. Not at that time, at least.
 
He was coach when we have been hit with two major sanctions. Those are on him. The buck stops with him. He has made sure to have full control of every aspect of the program to the point where he apparently can't be fired.

I don’t see how the second set of sanctions were on JB. He couldn’t get involved in Fab’s academics. And there was no indication he inserted himself in the situation at any point. Yeah, he hired a guy who did shady stuff. He’s the fall guy for that, at best, not really involved. The drugs thing was 100% the AD. The YMCA thing was compliance related. That’s not something a head coach would or should know about, if we’re living in the real world and not the NCAA fantasy land where head coaches are somehow omnipresent.
 
Our last good defense was 2019. Chukwu in the middle, and solid size and athleticism all around with Battle, Howard, Brissett, Hughes. We certainly need to get back to zones that look more like that.

Offensively we just need dynamism. Judah is good but I want 1-3 capable of putting the ball on the floor. They don't have to be total studs just capable.

If Boeheim could construct a roster like that he can certainly still win.
 
Our last good defense was 2019. Chukwu in the middle, and solid size and athleticism all around with Battle, Howard, Brissett, Hughes. We certainly need to get back to zones that look more like that.

Offensively we just need dynamism. Judah is good but I want 1-3 capable of putting the ball on the floor. They don't have to be total studs just capable.

If Boeheim could construct a roster like that he can certainly still win.

Two big and athletic guards up top is crucial. The zone as a concept still works, just needs the pieces. I’ll gladly take ugly offense for a smothering defense.
 
A quality win would go a long way. Clock is ticking and opportunities are dwindling.
 
Weren't you in another thread talking about people saying/complaining about the same thing over and over again yet you make a thread explaining your stance on the same topic??? Is your stance more important because you want to try and spin a 9 year decline in a positive light?
 
A quality win would go a long way. Clock is ticking and opportunities are dwindling.

We’re just playing for a decent seed in the ACCT now. We have to win that to get in.

What’s wild is that’s actually doable. I guess Clemson is the question mark. But we’ve shown we can take UNC and Virginia down to the wire and I’m not at all scared of this Duke team.
 
Weren't you in another thread talking about people saying/complaining about the same thing over and over again yet you make a thread explaining your stance on the same topic??? Is your stance more important because you want to try and spin a 9 year decline in a positive light?

My rebuttal to belabored points, with a point that hasn’t been brought up in probably years, is evidence of me using a belabored point repeated after every game?

Connect the dots for me.
 
I don’t see how the second set of sanctions were on JB. He couldn’t get involved in Fab’s academics. And there was no indication he inserted himself in the situation at any point. Yeah, he hired a guy who did shady stuff. He’s the fall guy for that, at best, not really involved. ...

Yeah, the director of basketball operations just proactively took it upon himself to create a plagiarism scheme with the help of administrative staff.

Makes sense.
 
Yeah, the director of basketball operations just proactively took it upon himself to create a plagiarism scheme with the help of administrative staff.

Makes sense.

It makes a lot of sense. His job was to keep all of the players eligible pretty much. He took that beyond the level of involvement he was supposed to.

I work in an Internal Audit department. Employees doing things their boss did not tell them to do is borderline common.

The NCAA sees that as JB giving him a wink and a nod and whispering in his ear, “make sure all my players can play at any cost. Any cost!” in some dark alley. But we know that’s not how the real world works and the NCAA makes assumptions because they don’t have the evidence or a good way to get the evidence.
 
It makes a lot of sense. His job was to keep all of the players eligible pretty much. He took that beyond the level of involvement he was supposed to.

I work in an Internal Audit department. Employees doing things their boss did not tell them to do is borderline common.

The NCAA sees that as JB giving him a wink and a nod and whispering in his ear, “make sure all my players can play at any cost. Any cost!” in some dark alley. But we know that’s not how the real world works and the NCAA makes assumptions because they don’t have the evidence or a good way to get the evidence.
I don’t believe this for a second.
 
Two big and athletic guards up top is crucial. The zone as a concept still works, just needs the pieces. I’ll gladly take ugly offense for a smothering defense.
We just need a balance. Plenty of people, me included, complained during the Battle years about lack of skill in our guards and forwards. Unfortunately, the pendulum swung entirely the other way very quickly, with the influx of Buddy, Joe, Swider, etc.

The athleticism and length need not be top-tier, just good. And the same goes for the skill-level. We should never be starting a guard who is completely inept at putting ball on the floor. It is not that hard to find guards of respectable size and athleticism who are capable enough at generating offense. The roster management has been the true debacle of our decline.

I look at the potential of next year. A lineup of Mintz-Copeland-Taylor-Brown-Hima shows some promise on both ends of the floor. Copeland being the lynchpin. If he can be a secondary ball handler and a good defender, I think that could be a solid team.
 
We just need a balance. Plenty of people, me included, complained during the Battle years about lack of skill in our guards and forwards. Unfortunately, the pendulum swung entirely the other way very quickly, with the influx of Buddy, Joe, Swider, etc.

The athleticism and length need not be top-tier, just good. And the same goes for the skill-level. We should never be starting a guard who is completely inept at putting ball on the floor. It is not that hard to find guards of respectable size and athleticism who are capable enough at generating offense. The roster management has been the true debacle of our decline.

I look at the potential of next year. A lineup of Mintz-Copeland-Taylor-Brown-Hima shows some promise on both ends of the floor. Copeland being the lynchpin. If he can be a secondary ball handler and a good defender, I think that could be a solid team.
Mintz-Taylor-Bell-Brown-Hima
 
Mintz-Taylor-Bell-Brown-Hima
I just want another guard out there who can attack off the dribble. Obviously we'd be needing a big leap from Copeland, but i have hopes that he can develop into that secondary ball handler
 
I just want another guard out there who can attack off the dribble. Obviously we'd be needing a big leap from Copeland, but i have hopes that he can develop into that secondary ball handler
Need the shooting more
 

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