Geno Thorpe - COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE

[two3zone]

Washington knows how to play point guard. Kaleb didn't coming in here. Big difference.

Even so, it's a ton to put on this kid. I really wanted him as I thought he could be a great player with the keys to the bus his junior and senior year.

I love the new guys as much as the next guy, but guys like Washington just probably aren't ready to jump right in.

I come from he belief of setting people up for success. You set them up for success and a majority of the time they are successful.

I'm not sure HW is ready for 20-25 mpg as of yet and would hate to see his psychy get out of wack or the fans turn on him when in all reality he shouldn't have been thrusted in. That's the reason I wouldn't be opposed to Thorpe. Don't really want him but I think it would be best for HW.

 

[Toronto Cuse]

Difference between 13 losses and 15 probably. So picking one is more as to whether you prefer a 5th year Thorpe and then a Frosh or a 2018 Ayala with a years experience. Imagine that is the next season in which we matter in any way.

Gotta play the games before we can lose the games. You recruit the players that give you the best roster you can assemble. That's Geno. We are not the Sixers and this is not the process. Our coach is in his 70's not his 30's. Tanking next year to put us in better position for 2018 makes no sense in college basketball. Too much turnover year to year for that strategy. How many times has NC State or St.John's brought in a foundation class than watched them all declare or transfer before their sophomore year? You go year to year and do the best you can to win as many games as possible. The notion that we won't be good this year is almost as idiotic as the notion that we were going to win the ACC last year. We won't know what we have until we see the product on the floor.

 

[Jasoncuse]

JB was pretty adamant in an interview not too long ago, that he was less than enamored with using grad transfers, because he feels that it takes too long for them to learn the system. I think it was the same article where he said that if he had Gillon for one more year, he would have been one of the leagues leading guards.

I took from that article that I think that it will have to be the perfect situation for him to go the grad transfer route again. Personally, I don't think Thorpe is perfect situation material. He is decent, not great. And. if the defense is going to suffer as a result, I'm betting that JB would rather it suffer this coming year, with a frosh Ayala, and be better next year with a Soph Ayala. My money is on Ayala or bust. And with no inside knowledge, I think that unless Ayala suddenly gets a great offer out of the blue (which I don't see happening) I think he will be wearing SU orange this fall.

I hate that train of thought. Isn't it up to the coaching staff to make sure kids are as ready as possible to play?

You'd think a kid with 4 years of college under his belt would be able to pick up the system, at least as fast as some freshman. Maybe some bad habits need to be broken, but if a grad transfer is around all summer, why can't he be as ready to play in November, as any other new comer? Gillon seemed to understand the system, but wasn't any good at it and didn't seem to interested in being a defender. White showed up in late August. I think if a kid like Thorpe comes in after his graduation and plays with his teammates for a few months over the summer and talks with the staff, it wouldn't have a negative impact on his play. We need a scorer and another ball-handler, which he'd be a great fit for.

 

[NineOneSeven]

JB was pretty adamant in an interview not too long ago, that he was less than enamored with using grad transfers, because he feels that it takes too long for them to learn the system. I think it was the same article where he said that if he had Gillon for one more year, he would have been one of the leagues leading guards.

I took from that article that I think that it will have to be the perfect situation for him to go the grad transfer route again. Personally, I don't think Thorpe is perfect situation material. He is decent, not great. And. if the defense is going to suffer as a result, I'm betting that JB would rather it suffer this coming year, with a frosh Ayala, and be better next year with a Soph Ayala. My money is on Ayala or bust. And with no inside knowledge, I think that unless Ayala suddenly gets a great offer out of the blue (which I don't see happening) I think he will be wearing SU orange this fall.

You can certainly debate the fifth year vs freshman acquisition benefits/negatives, but I think we need to stop acting like our system is astrophysics. It's a 2-3 zone. Literally the second most commonly used defense in basketball. These kids have played this at some point in their lives. "Yeah but ours is a matchup zone with man to man principles!". Gosh I hate that statement. Does it take time to learn to play effectively? Sure. So much is about communication with your teammates but with a few months of practice and 100% commitment and effort to it, I'm not concerned at all. We had players play four years and were still average defenders at best. Not every player is going to be a lockdown defender just like every player isn't going to be a go to scorer.

If we have the option to add someone like Thorpe, even tho it's the fifth year route, I am all for it, especially if the other option is add nobody.

My opinion of course.

 

[Sherman20]

All true - but again I just get the (perhaps unfounded) feeling JB ain't rollin' with anymore 5th yrs

He said in his year end press conference that he probably wouldn't take two 5th year grad transfers in one season again, but implied that he'd def look at taking one.

 

[Antiprodigy]

I hate that train of thought. Isn't it up to the coaching staff to make sure kids are as ready as possible to play?

You'd think a kid with 4 years of college under his belt would be able to pick up the system, at least as fast as some freshman. Maybe some bad habits need to be broken, but if a grad transfer is around all summer, why can't he be as ready to play in November, as any other new comer? Gillon seemed to understand the system, but wasn't any good at it and didn't seem to interested in being a defender. White showed up in late August. I think if a kid like Thorpe comes in after his graduation and plays with his teammates for a few months over the summer and talks with the staff, it wouldn't have a negative impact on his play. We need a scorer and another ball-handler, which he'd be a great fit for.

You can certainly debate the fifth year vs freshman acquisition benefits/negatives, but I think we need to stop acting like our system is astrophysics. It's a 2-3 zone. Literally the second most commonly used defense in basketball. These kids have played this at some point in their lives. "Yeah but ours is a matchup zone with man to man principles!". Gosh I hate that statement. Does it take time to learn to play effectively? Sure. So much is about communication with your teammates but with a few months of practice and 100% commitment and effort to it, I'm not concerned at all. We had players play four years and were still average defenders at best. Not every player is going to be a lockdown defender just like every player isn't going to be a go to scorer.

If we have the option to add someone like Thorpe, even tho it's the fifth year route, I am all for it, especially if the other option is add nobody.

My opinion of course.

I will say this again, as it seems that I must not have made it clear in the post both of you quoted, or in a post I made following that one. I am relaying information that JB gave in an interview. Not direct quotes, but the meaning was clear. JB clearly felt that it is very difficult to integrate grad transfers into the team in the short space of time that the situation allows. It is highly likely that this difficulty played a significant part in the team not equaling up to the sum of its parts for a large portion of last year. JB clearly views grad transfers as a risk that he feels are not generally worth taking, unless it is a very special circumstance.

So, you may not like or agree with this assessment, but that is JB's view, and obviously, his view counts way more than any of ours do. It is 100% certain that he knows much more about the issues in the team last year than any of us, so it is also certain that he has a much better idea of how hard it is to get grad transfers to learn & embrace the system, then to reach their maximum capabilities with the system.

My only speculation within the post, was on my viewpoint of Thorpe. I feel fairly confident that JB does not see Thorpe as a "very special circumstance". Feel free to disagree with my viewpoint on Thorpe, but he is not "very special circumstance" worthy, IMO.

As for the comment on the zone, You may feel that it is easy to learn to play it the way JB wants it played, but there is ample evidence that supports that it is a rare player who fully masters its nuances in one year, much less one summer. Even some of the better defenders SU has had, took several years to be effective in the system.

 

[pearl31]

I will say this again, as it seems that I must not have made it clear in the post both of you quoted, or in a post I made following that one. I am relaying information that JB gave in an interview. Not direct quotes, but the meaning was clear. JB clearly felt that it is very difficult to integrate grad transfers into the team in the short space of time that the situation allows. It is highly likely that this difficulty played a significant part in the team not equaling up to the sum of its parts for a large portion of last year. JB clearly views grad transfers as a risk that he feels are not generally worth taking, unless it is a very special circumstance.

So, you may not like or agree with this assessment, but that is JB's view, and obviously, his view counts way more than any of ours do. It is 100% certain that he knows much more about the issues in the team last year than any of us, so it is also certain that he has a much better idea of how hard it is to get grad transfers to learn & embrace the system, then to reach their maximum capabilities with the system.

My only speculation within the post, was on my viewpoint of Thorpe. I feel fairly confident that JB does not see Thorpe as a "very special circumstance". Feel free to disagree with my viewpoint on Thorpe, but he is not "very special circumstance" worthy, IMO.

As for the comment on the zone, You may feel that it is easy to learn to play it the way JB wants it played, but there is ample evidence that supports that it is a rare player who fully masters its nuances in one year, much less one summer. Even some of the better defenders SU has had, took several years to be effective in the system.

agree w you

 

[chugg21]

Gotta play the games before we can lose the games. You recruit the players that give you the best roster you can assemble. That's Geno. We are not the Sixers and this is not the process. Our coach is in his 70's not his 30's. Tanking next year to put us in better position for 2018 makes no sense in college basketball. Too much turnover year to year for that strategy. How many times has NC State or St.John's brought in a foundation class than watched them all declare or transfer before their sophomore year? You go year to year and do the best you can to win as many games as possible. The notion that we won't be good this year is almost as idiotic as the notion that we were going to win the ACC last year. We won't know what we have until we see the product on the floor.

Not sure it's idiotic, you can usually make a fairly accurate prediction of how a season is going to go based on history, roster, experience, etc...

We are generally aware of which of our teams look promising. Sure we all got burnt last year not anticipating the difficulty of the 2 grad transfers gelling and 3 starters not improving whatsoever and possibly regressing. I'm not on here to just post a bunch of happy nonsense like the football team is going to win 9 games this year to get a bunch of likes, that's just stupid. The experience level and make up of this roster currently with or without Thorpe certainly looks like a step back from last year when we had 5 different guys that each scored 20+ pts in multiple games. Anything can happen but I don't understand how people on here get so whiny and pissy when others have an opinion that the team is going to struggle and end up with a record very similar to the last 3 years. Its without question the most realistic scenario since we've had 3 experienced teams all struggle in the ACC the past 3 years and now this team is going to be a lot younger and far less experienced but god forbid if everything isn't roses and optimism. Same people thinking the team is going to be at the top of the ACC probably build up their expectations and are then the ones posting that JB should be canned after a loss to Georgia Tech.

 

[dasher]

Not sure it's idiotic, you can usually make a fairly accurate prediction of how a season is going to go based on history, roster, experience, etc...

We are generally aware of which of our teams look promising. Sure we all got burnt last year not anticipating the difficulty of the 2 grad transfers gelling and 3 starters not improving whatsoever and possibly regressing. I'm not on here to just post a bunch of happy nonsense like the football team is going to win 9 games this year to get a bunch of likes, that's just stupid. The experience level and make up of this roster currently with or without Thorpe certainly looks like a step back from last year when we had 5 different guys that each scored 20+ pts in multiple games. Anything can happen but I don't understand how people on here get so whiny and pissy when others have an opinion that the team is going to struggle and end up with a record very similar to the last 3 years. Its without question the most realistic scenario since we've had 3 experienced teams all struggle in the ACC the past 3 years and now this team is going to be a lot younger and far less experienced but god forbid if everything isn't roses and optimism. Same people thinking the team is going to be at the top of the ACC probably build up their expectations and are then the ones posting that JB should be canned after a loss to Georgia Tech.

Who on this board said or thinks that this team is going to be at the top of the ACC? I haven't seen that. We have issues that have to be addressed. Start at the most important player on the court. The point position. I do think that we can have a team that we will enjoy watching. If Marek does come, waiting for an official word before I get too excited and Brissett at forwards with Moyer, I think they will be fun to watch. We have two scorers in TT and Battle. We can round out an entertaining team. Anything more is a plus.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Who on this board said or thinks that this team is going to be at the top of the ACC? I haven't seen that. We have issues that have to be addressed. Start at the most important player on the court. The point position. I do think that we can have a team that we will enjoy watching. If Marek does come, waiting for an official word before I get too excited and Brissett at forwards with Moyer, I think they will be fun to watch. We have two scorers in TT and Battle. We can round out an entertaining team. Anything more is a plus.

Does JB prefer Ayala or Thorpe?

 

[NineOneSeven]

I will say this again, as it seems that I must not have made it clear in the post both of you quoted, or in a post I made following that one. I am relaying information that JB gave in an interview. Not direct quotes, but the meaning was clear. JB clearly felt that it is very difficult to integrate grad transfers into the team in the short space of time that the situation allows. It is highly likely that this difficulty played a significant part in the team not equaling up to the sum of its parts for a large portion of last year. JB clearly views grad transfers as a risk that he feels are not generally worth taking, unless it is a very special circumstance.

So, you may not like or agree with this assessment, but that is JB's view, and obviously, his view counts way more than any of ours do. It is 100% certain that he knows much more about the issues in the team last year than any of us, so it is also certain that he has a much better idea of how hard it is to get grad transfers to learn & embrace the system, then to reach their maximum capabilities with the system.

My only speculation within the post, was on my viewpoint of Thorpe. I feel fairly confident that JB does not see Thorpe as a "very special circumstance". Feel free to disagree with my viewpoint on Thorpe, but he is not "very special circumstance" worthy, IMO.

As for the comment on the zone, You may feel that it is easy to learn to play it the way JB wants it played, but there is ample evidence that supports that it is a rare player who fully masters its nuances in one year, much less one summer. Even some of the better defenders SU has had, took several years to be effective in the system.

And some never learned it well despite being here 4 years.

 

[TinyManInside]

Is there any real indication that SU is even looking that hard at Thorpe?

 

[Melancer46]

Is there any real indication that SU is even looking that hard at Thorpe?

Depends how you feel about Jon Rothstein. He says Thorpe is considering us and Pitt, which I think probably means that we've reciprocated interest at this point, but I suppose that is technically debatable.

 

[tee1222]

Depends how you feel about Jon Rothstein. He says Thorpe is considering us and Pitt, which I think probably means that we've reciprocated interest at this point, but I suppose that is technically debatable.

It's Rothstein. He gave us an ever growing 9 1/2 foot tall Jerami Grant with arms for tree trunks, eyes cold as steel, hands that would pulverize granite...what's not to believe?

 

[iommi]

Is there any real indication that SU is even looking that hard at Thorpe?

We are strongly considering Thorpe.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

JB was pretty adamant in an interview not too long ago, that he was less than enamored with using grad transfers, because he feels that it takes too long for them to learn the system. I think it was the same article where he said that if he had Gillon for one more year, he would have been one of the leagues leading guards.

I took from that article that I think that it will have to be the perfect situation for him to go the grad transfer route again. Personally, I don't think Thorpe is perfect situation material. He is decent, not great. And. if the defense is going to suffer as a result, I'm betting that JB would rather it suffer this coming year, with a frosh Ayala, and be better next year with a Soph Ayala. My money is on Ayala or bust. And with no inside knowledge, I think that unless Ayala suddenly gets a great offer out of the blue (which I don't see happening) I think he will be wearing SU orange this fall.

I think you put way too much emphasis on one end of season interview. IMO, that was supposed to be a tribute to the grad trannies, not condemning them. The zone comments were more to be an excuse for their poor defense. The real tell was the all-league comment for Gillon.

I seriously doubt the defense would suffer with the addition of Thorpe. Quite the contrary. I like the idea of Thorpe and Battle up top.

I'm hoping for Thorpe over Ayala. I think we would be better next year with Thorpe and potentially better in '18 with Carey filling the void.

 

[Jack Hall]

I will say this again, as it seems that I must not have made it clear in the post both of you quoted, or in a post I made following that one. I am relaying information that JB gave in an interview. Not direct quotes, but the meaning was clear. JB clearly felt that it is very difficult to integrate grad transfers into the team in the short space of time that the situation allows. It is highly likely that this difficulty played a significant part in the team not equaling up to the sum of its parts for a large portion of last year. JB clearly views grad transfers as a risk that he feels are not generally worth taking, unless it is a very special circumstance.

So, you may not like or agree with this assessment, but that is JB's view, and obviously, his view counts way more than any of ours do. It is 100% certain that he knows much more about the issues in the team last year than any of us, so it is also certain that he has a much better idea of how hard it is to get grad transfers to learn & embrace the system, then to reach their maximum capabilities with the system.

My only speculation within the post, was on my viewpoint of Thorpe. I feel fairly confident that JB does not see Thorpe as a "very special circumstance". Feel free to disagree with my viewpoint on Thorpe, but he is not "very special circumstance" worthy, IMO.

As for the comment on the zone, You may feel that it is easy to learn to play it the way JB wants it played, but there is ample evidence that supports that it is a rare player who fully masters its nuances in one year, much less one summer. Even some of the better defenders SU has had, took several years to be effective in the system.

I have a feeling the two fifth year seniors are the most conveniant scapegoat for a clearly underacheiving team. It is absolutely scary to think about what last years team would have looked like without White and Gillon. Lets think about the team with no White, no Gillon and say FH and MM having increased roles on the team in their place...

Edit- altho heres another scenario: No Gillon/White instead KJ or RP and BJ in their place. That scenario is probably more interesting but still JBs (un)doing...

If Dolecej and Thorpe are the last two additions to next years team, not thrilled with it by any means, but am more than content with it. Go Cuse!!

 

[Jack Hall]

I will say this again, as it seems that I must not have made it clear in the post both of you quoted, or in a post I made following that one. I am relaying information that JB gave in an interview. Not direct quotes, but the meaning was clear. JB clearly felt that it is very difficult to integrate grad transfers into the team in the short space of time that the situation allows. It is highly likely that this difficulty played a significant part in the team not equaling up to the sum of its parts for a large portion of last year. JB clearly views grad transfers as a risk that he feels are not generally worth taking, unless it is a very special circumstance.

So, you may not like or agree with this assessment, but that is JB's view, and obviously, his view counts way more than any of ours do. It is 100% certain that he knows much more about the issues in the team last year than any of us, so it is also certain that he has a much better idea of how hard it is to get grad transfers to learn & embrace the system, then to reach their maximum capabilities with the system.

My only speculation within the post, was on my viewpoint of Thorpe. I feel fairly confident that JB does not see Thorpe as a "very special circumstance". Feel free to disagree with my viewpoint on Thorpe, but he is not "very special circumstance" worthy, IMO.

As for the comment on the zone, You may feel that it is easy to learn to play it the way JB wants it played, but there is ample evidence that supports that it is a rare player who fully masters its nuances in one year, much less one summer. Even some of the better defenders SU has had, took several years to be effective in the system.

Mustve been asked dozens of times: why is it easier (less risky) in that first year to incorporate a freshman (or say a soph transfer) into a system than a fifth year transfer? Old dogs dont learn new tricks i guess but dont fully buy it

 

[Ryand877]

Mustve been asked dozens of times: why is it easier (less risky) in that first year to incorporate a freshman (or say a soph transfer) into a system than a fifth year transfer? Old dogs dont learn new tricks i guess but dont fully buy it

Habits are less ingrained because they are younger. Can change easier IMO. I think a good analogy is that it is easier to learn a second language when you are younger.

 

[iommi]

Mustve been asked dozens of times: why is it easier (less risky) in that first year to incorporate a freshman (or say a soph transfer) into a system than a fifth year transfer? Old dogs dont learn new tricks i guess but dont fully buy it

It comes down to your last sentence and the complexities of the 2-3. We play it our way. I get why you aren't buying it but that's what JB believes.

 

[dasher]

Habits are less ingrained because they are younger. Can change easier IMO. I think a good analogy is that it is easier to learn a second language when you are younger.

??? these kids are either 18 or 22. They are young either way. It is a lot more about hoop IQ than about age.

 

[Ryand877]

??? these kids are either 18 or 22. They are young either way. It is a lot more about hoop IQ than about age.

IQ definitely important too.

 

[iommi]

??? these kids are either 18 or 22. They are young either way. It is a lot more about hoop IQ than about age.

Well, I think he does have a point. It might not be an age thing as much as once you have 4 years in a college system, it's hard to un-learn what has been taught by that prior staff. That's basically what JB said.

 

[Jack Hall]

It comes down to your last sentence and the complexities of the 2-3. We play it our way. I get why you aren't buying it but that's what JB believes.

So if someone asks JB: sit White because he isnt too coachable , undo MMs redshirt and put MM in Whites place. You think for one minute JB makes that move? Of course not,not in any parallel universe

Edit and let me make clear : i think MM was a very impressive recruit and should have a VERY bright future here

 

[007]

Mustve been asked dozens of times: why is it easier (less risky) in that first year to incorporate a freshman (or say a soph transfer) into a system than a fifth year transfer? Old dogs dont learn new tricks i guess but dont fully buy it

Generally, the older the player the more they have to "unlearn" rotations they may have learned playing other zones. The rotations in JB's 2-3, especially for the forwards, are very demanding and somewhat unique to his system.

The players, especially the Fs, need to be reactionary because they are required to cover so much ground - it's pretty incredible how much ground they have to cover. Very few zones, if any, ever require the ball side forward to rotate out past the 3 point line above the foul line extended, and then slide down to cover the opposite side low blocks on a ball reversal. This is part of why we recruit length.