Girard/Edwards Pick and Roll

[Niastri]

I want to talk a little bit about offense next season.

I'll be a broken record all offseason, but Girard and Edwards seemed to figure something out on the pick and roll the last few games before Edwards got hurt.

The Girard/Edwards pick and roll is going to require a third defender to stop. Otherwise, Edwards is going to get dunks rolling to the basket and Girard is going to get open threes all game long. There are very few college combinations that are going to defend it without a help defender to double on the ball at the pick to prevent open shots for Girard.

This means Mintz, Williams and whomever the other forward is are going to have a lot of space.

If you were going to leave somebody open to double the pick and roll, it won't be the guy guarding Mintz.

I am working under the assumption that all of Mintz, Williams and Taylor/Bunch will be competent enough when WIDE OPEN to either advance with the dribble to finish at the basket or hit wide open threes.

I also think Girard is going to be used like Cooney and Rautins were, running miles and miles off picks to get open threes out of the motion offense, where he can either create for others or himself if he's not open enough for the shot. I'm hoping he gets enough rest or enough conditioning to do this adequately.

Barring that, with Girard and another point guard, feeding Edwards in the past becomes a viable option. Again, he's going to demand double teams. Open shots for somebody, and no team is leaving Girard open. Probably not Mintz either. So Williams and Taylor/Bunch get open looks.

Last but not least, Mintz looks like a guy absolutely tailor made for isolation when all else goes wrong. He seems skilled enough to find the open man after drawing the help defender. You guessed it, open shots.

Whomever plays forward for us is going to get lots of chances to hit open threes.

Is this team loaded? Probably not... But it will have a couple Distinctive Competencies that are going to be very hard to defend.

The whole season might depend on how well the Girard/Edwards Pick and Roll picks up where it left off. They could score a beastly 40 a game between them as primary options, forcing teams to defend in ways they don't want.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Unless someone besides Girard can knock down shots, Edward’s will not be as open in the pick and role.

 

[Orangezoo]

Unless someone besides Girard can knock down shots, Edward’s will not be as open in the pick and role.

Right. That extra defender will drop down unless their man can prove to be a threat from the outside. That wasn't possible last year with Buddy and Cole and even Jimmy on the outside .

 

[Niastri]

Right. That extra defender will drop down unless their man can prove to be a threat from the outside. That wasn't possible last year with Buddy and Cole and even Jimmy on the outside .

The consternation in multiple threads about Bunch's low release got me thinking about our offense.

You hit the nail on the head... The combination of Girard and Edwards is going to give the forwards open looks. It doesn't matter what Bunch's form looks like as long as he can hit an open shot.

 

[Orangezoo]

The consternation in multiple threads about Bunch's low release for me thinking about our offense.

You hit the nail on the head... The combination of Girard and Edwards is going to give the forwards open looks. It doesn't matter what his form looks like as long as he can hit an open shot.

While i see what you are doing here the big thing is that it will be Benny or a freshman who has to hit those looks. If they can't then they will continue to be open. Teams will take that option over leaving Joe or Jesse for good looks all year I would venture.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Joe with the other team‘s best defender is going to have much more difficulty executing the PNR.

 

[721Comstock]

Joe with the other teams best defender is going to have much more difficulty executing the PNR.

True.

Here’s hoping Mintz can step in and take advantage when that happens.

Whether that’s just beating his own man (who likely isn’t as good as whomever is assigned to Joe), and/or running his own PnR w Jesse.

Also - there’s no reason Mintz & Benny couldn’t do their own PnR action.

Benny is a tall, explosive, athletic dude -
He should be able to roll and finish like Jesse can.

 

[kcsu]

Joe, Mintz, Bunch, Taylor can can all shoot. We have enough shooters. Lets play some D and push the ball and try and get some open looks that way. Let our athletes run. Benny and the Jets is what im hoping for.

 

[MikeSU02]

I want to talk a little bit about offense next season.

I'll be a broken record all offseason, but Girard and Edwards seemed to figure something out on the pick and roll the last few games before Edwards got hurt.

The Girard/Edwards pick and roll is going to require a third defender to stop. Otherwise, Edwards is going to get dunks rolling to the basket and Girard is going to get open threes all game long. There are very few college combinations that are going to defend it without a help defender to double on the ball at the pick to prevent open shots for Girard.

This means Mintz, Williams and whomever the other forward is are going to have a lot of space.

If you were going to leave somebody open to double the pick and roll, it won't be the guy guarding Mintz.

I am working under the assumption that all of Mintz, Williams and Taylor/Bunch will be competent enough when WIDE OPEN to either advance with the dribble to finish at the basket or hit wide open threes.

I also think Girard is going to be used like Cooney and Rautins were, running miles and miles off picks to get open threes out of the motion offense, where he can either create for others or himself if he's not open enough for the shot. I'm hoping he gets enough rest or enough conditioning to do this adequately.

Barring that, with Girard and another point guard, feeding Edwards in the past becomes a viable option. Again, he's going to demand double teams. Open shots for somebody, and no team is leaving Girard open. Probably not Mintz either. So Williams and Taylor/Bunch get open looks.

Last but not least, Mintz looks like a guy absolutely tailor made for isolation when all else goes wrong. He seems skilled enough to find the open man after drawing the help defender. You guessed it, open shots.

Whomever plays forward for us is going to get lots of chances to hit open threes.

Is this team loaded? Probably not... But it will have a couple Distinctive Competencies that are going to be very hard to defend.

The whole season might depend on how well the Girard/Edwards Pick and Roll picks up where it left off. They could score a beastly 40 a game between them as primary options, forcing teams to defend in ways they don't want.

Joe can hit small windows on that play.

I know everyone thinks Buddy had Kawhi Leonard on him each game, but even with better perimeter defenders on him, Joe can still execute the PnR with Jesse. He has better vision and passing acumen then I thought, he just didn’t have the ability to breakdown dudes off the dribble.

They show/blitz Joe, he’ll still be able to find a sliver to get to Jesse or get the ball out to someone else to rotate.

Wings are going to have to prove they can sink wide open threes, as well.

 

[Goin' Deep]

We may be running an effective P and R. But I think it will be with Mintz or Torrence at the helm.
They have better handles and passing ability than Girard. The thought that Girard will try to get open via off the ball screens(like Cooney/Rautins) is a great concept. Think about it. Mintz dribbling around the top of the key...Girard runs the baseline curling off a pick set by Benny...Benny's man slides out to cheat and cover Girard for 1/2 a second...Benny rolls to the hoop -open- for the lob pass and slam from Mintz.

I think what we will see is a MUCH BETTER passing team than what we have seen the pass 2 years.

 

[Niastri]

While i see what you are doing here the big thing is that it will be Benny or a freshman who has to hit those looks. If they can't then they will continue to be open. Teams will take that option over leaving Joe or Jesse for good looks all year I would venture.

Well, if Williams or Taylor/Bunch can hit 35% or better, opposing coaches will take Edwards one on one over giving the forward or Girard open threes. Edwards gets a very high shooting percentage because a lot of his shots are dunks. If he's playing closely guarded by a big man, I bet it's closer to 50%. Plus, it's harder for him to get offensive rebounds of his own missed shots in the post than off missed threes by one of his teammates. I think you guard Edwards straight up and make him beat you, rather than risk a rain of threes. It takes longer to get to 20 points 2 at a time than 3.

If none of the forwards can hit an open three though... Yikes we're in for a long season.

 

[Orangezoo]

Well, if Williams or Taylor/Bunch can hit 35% or better, opposing coaches will take Edwards one on one over giving the forward or Girard open threes. Edwards gets a very high shooting percentage because a lot of his shots are dunks. If he's playing closely guarded by a big man, I bet it's closer to 50%. Plus, it's harder for him to get offensive rebounds of his own missed shots in the post than off missed threes by one of his teammates. I think you guard Edwards straight up and make him beat you, rather than risk a rain of threes. It takes longer to get to 20 points 2 at a time than 3.

If none of the forwards can hit an open three though... Yikes we're in for a long season.

The set I would like to see run is using Jesse as a distributor in the pick and roll.

You run the pnr with Mintz and Jesse. Jesse gets the catch and draws the extra defender. Joe spots up and then Benny runs the baseline with a screen from Bunch or Taylor etc. Benny is the target here beating his man with the cut Jesse finding him. In other scenarios Benny may be the screener here.

This will open up the pnr all the way to the bucket or open up a kick out more often. It's likely Mintz will get a good portion of those kick outs vs Joe. Joe will have to keep moving and setting up all game to get looks.

Benny didn't do a good job cutting last year. I felt while he should have gotten more time one thing he didn't do is make himself more available off the ball. That alone would make him more valuable with his size and athleticism.

There are options but guys have to be better setting good screens and cutting and doing so crisply. It can't be too late after the catch.

 

[Niastri]

We may be running an effective P and R. But I think it will be with Mintz or Torrence at the helm.
They have better handles and passing ability than Girard. The thought that Girard will try to get open via off the ball screens(like Cooney/Rautins) is a great concept. Think about it. Mintz dribbling around the top of the key...Girard runs the baseline curling off a pick set by Benny...Benny's man slides out to cheat and cover Girard for 1/2 a second...Benny rolls to the hoop -open- for the lob pass and slam from Mintz.

I think what we will see is a MUCH BETTER passing team than what we have seen the pass 2 years.

The benefit of Girard running the PnR is that he is a deadly three point shooter with very small openings AND he is a slick enough passer to find the open man. Most of his turnovers come from over dribbling, not bad passes.

Mintz and especially Torrence aren't the threats Girard is to take and make the three given an inch of space, so the defenders will let them shoot, taking away the "roll" part.

Remember Chukwu and Howard trying to pick and roll and it was just a bunch of dribbling away from the basket with no chance of scoring? Well, if either of the players running isn't an offensive threat, that what the PnR starts to look like.

Mintz might be the guy who can run it even better than Girard, he's good attacking with the dribble, but Torrence hasn't proven he can shoot enough. If they both show accurate shooting, look out!

 

[CardiacCuse]

The consternation in multiple threads about Bunch's low release got me thinking about our offense.

You hit the nail on the head... The combination of Girard and Edwards is going to give the forwards open looks. It doesn't matter what Bunch's form looks like as long as he can hit an open shot.

yeah good analysis.

the ceiling on this team will likely come down to being able to hit open shots outside of girard and edwards. if bunch taylor williams mintz are all hitting decent clips this team could a monster on offense. or even just 1 or 2 of them are.

still, if they fill the last open spot on the roster...would be nice to get a sharp shooting forward...just to make sure...putting a southerland, shumpert or swider on this team would be the perfect piece.

 

[Niastri]

yeah good analysis.

the ceiling on this team will likely come down to being able to hit open shots outside of girard and edwards. if bunch taylor williams mintz are all hitting decent clips this team could a monster on offense. or even just 1 or 2 of them are.

still, if they fill the last open spot on the roster...would be nice to get a sharp shooting forward...just to make sure...putting a southerland, shumpert or swider on this team would be the perfect piece.

Lol, every team we've ever had would look a lot better with Preston Shumpert. You do realize he averaged 20.7 as a senior, right? Only 7.2 per game from threes. He was a very good scorer from three, midrange and an underrated post player. He also drew a fair amount of fouls.

Preston Shumpert College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Preston Shumpert - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more

www.sports-reference.com

 

[Jake]

Joe with the other team‘s best defender is going to have much more difficulty executing the PNR.

And it’s going to be even harder for Joe for a couple of reasons. Teams had to put size on Buddy. If they didn’t, he either shot over smaller guys or backed them down.

It limited defensive options.

With Joe, you can guard him with an opposing point, or a strong defensive 2.

That’s why I think you’ll more screens set for him and he’s going to have to catch and shoot more this year than the previous three.

 

[Cheriehoop]

And it’s going to be even harder for Joe for a couple of reasons. Teams had to put size on Buddy. If they didn’t, he either shot over smaller guys or backed them down.

It limited defensive options.

With Joe, you can guard him with an opposing point, or a strong defensive 2.

That’s why I think you’ll more screens set for him and he’s going to have to catch and shoot more this year than the previous three.

Hope they find a very good offensive or passing option to screen for him. The screener can get the benefit too and generate quite a bit of offense and mismatches if executed well.

 

[Niastri]

And it’s going to be even harder for Joe for a couple of reasons. Teams had to put size on Buddy. If they didn’t, he either shot over smaller guys or backed them down.

It limited defensive options.

With Joe, you can guard him with an opposing point, or a strong defensive 2.

That’s why I think you’ll more screens set for him and he’s going to have to catch and shoot more this year than the previous three.

Do you think they'll do more motion for Girard than pick and roll with Edwards for this reason?

 

[CardiacCuse]

Lol, every team we've ever had would look a lot better with Preston Shumpert. You do realize he averaged 20.7 as a senior, right? Only 7.2 per game from threes. He was a very good scorer from three, midrange and an underrated post player. He also drew a fair amount of fouls.

Preston Shumpert College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Preston Shumpert - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more

www.sports-reference.com

im surprised he didnt more at the next level. he was a great shooter. truly great.

my point wasnt to add a player that is exactly shumpert. i just thought of 3 forwards who could shoot and listed them. a good to great shooting forward would be a nice add to this roster. (which is pretty much what 90% of posters have already said.)

 

[Cusefan0307]

im surprised he didnt more at the next level. he was a great shooter. truly great.

my point wasnt to add a player that is exactly shumpert. i just thought of 3 forwards who could shoot and listed them. a good to great shooting forward would be a nice add to this roster. (which is pretty much what 90% of posters have already said.)

He was about 15 years too old. Would have had a better shot if he came out in 2016. The same could be said for Demetria Nichols.

 

[Col. Bleep]

Joe, Mintz, Bunch, Taylor can can all shoot. We have enough shooters. Lets play some D and push the ball and try and get some open looks that way. Let our athletes run. Benny and the Jets is what im hoping for.

We'd all probably like to see the running Orange again.
But that requires defense, defensive rebounding and a point guard who can push and pass.
Symir can push.
Rebounding (as usual these days) and the quality of the defense are the big question marks.