SWC75
Bored Historian
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I decided to take another look at historical net points on a position-by-position basis: what is typical for a starter-quality player at each position. I’m looking at anyone who averaged 20 minutes a game and just at his net points, (having already posted the numbers and formula used to compute them). I’m now listing the players as point guard, shooting guards, small forward, power forwards and centers so we can look at the norms for those positions. I’m interpreting where those players belong by my memory of them, how the media guide lists than and presuming that the guard with the most assists is a point man and the forward with the most rebounds is the power forward. If a player is playing out of position, (such as Marek: really a small forward playing center), I’ll list him at his natural position. If we had a three-guard line-up, I’ll list them as guards, with the high assist man as the point guard. Some of our best teams have essentially had two power forwards. Again, players are listed only once: by the highest NP/40 rating they had in their careers. The year is when the season was completes: 1980-81 is ‘81’.
CENTERS
Rony Seikaly 87 22.4
Rick Jackson 11 22.1
Etan Thomas 99 21.9
Rakeem Christmas 15 21.6
Danny Schayes 81 20.3
LeRon Ellis 91 19.4
Conrad McRae 93 19.1
Arinze Onuaku 10 18.5
Otis Hill 97 17.8
Darryl Watkins 07 16.6
Fab Melo 12 16.1
Bourama Sidibe 20 15.8
Craig Forth 04 14.5
Paschal Chukwu 18 14.0
Average 18.6
POWER FORWARDS
Derrick Coleman 89 28.5
Billy Owens 91 26.7
Carmelo Anthony 03 22.9
John Wallace 95 22.7
Wes Johnson 10 22.4
Leo Rautins 83 21.3
Hakim Warrick 05 20.5
Wendell Alexis 86 20.3
Damone Brown 01 20.0
Paul Harris 08 18.9
Tyler Lydon 17 18.5
Arinze Onuaku 08 17.3
Ryan Blackwell 98 17.2
CJ Fair 13 16.3
Donte Greene 08 16.3
Tyler Roberson 16 15.4
Jerami Grant 14 15.3
Chris McCullough 15 15.2
Sean Kerins 84 15.0
Ron Payton 82 14.9
Terrence Roberts 07 14.5
Andre Hawkins 84 14.2
Oshae Brissett 18 13.9
Quincy Guerrier 20 12.5 (He’s 20.7 so far this year.)
Average 18.4
SMALL FORWARDS
Eric Santifer 83 21.0
Rafael Addison 86 20.1
Stevie Thompson 89 19.9
Lawrence Moten 94 19.6
Dave Johnson 91 18.3
Preston Shumpert 02 18.3
Demetris Nichols 07 17.9
Elijah Hughes 20 17.3 (Alan Griffin has 17.8 so far this year.)
Kris Joseph 10 16.6
Tony Bruin 83 16.5
James Southerland 13 16.4
Todd Burgan 98 16.2
Jason Cipolla 97 16.2
Josh Pace 04 16.2
Andrew White 17 15.3
Michael Gbinije 16 14.9
Marek Dolezaj 20 14.3 (He’s 14.9 so far this year)
Kueth Duany 02 13.3
Luke Jackson 95 12.8
Howie Triche 87 12.7
Marius Janulis 97 9.8
Malachi Richardson 16 9.7
Average 16.1
SHOOTING GUARDS
Dion Waiters 12 17.3
Andy Rautins 10 15.4
Greg Monroe 87 14.5
Brandon Triche 12 13.9
Eric Devendorf 08 13.3
Tyus Battle 19 12.7
Matt Roe 89 12.0
Marty Headd 81 11.6
Trevor Cooney 14 11.5
DeShaun Williams 02 10.7
Mike Hopkins 93 10.4
Tony Bland 00 10.1
Buddy Boeheim 20 10.0 (He’s at 9.8 so far this year.)
Michael Brown 85 10.0
Average 13.3 13.3
POINT GUARDS
Sherman Douglas 87 21.1
Pearl Washington 86 20.9
Billy Edelin 04 16.9
Adrian Autry 94 16.8 (Kadary Richmond is at 17.5 for far this year.)
Jonny Flynn 09 16.7
Scoop Jardine 10 16.5
Michael Carter-Williams 13 16.1
Tyler Ennis 14 14.7
John Gillon 17 14.4
Gerry McNamara 06 14.2
Michael Lloyd 95 13.3
Jason Hart 99 12.8
Joe Girard 20 11.8 (He’s also at 11.8 this year.)
Alan Griffin 01 11.8
Lazarus Sims 96 11.8
James Thues 02 11.2
Gene Waldron 83 11.1
Frank Howard 18 9.8
Josh Wright 07 9.8
Eddie Moss 81 9.6
Michael Edwards 90 9.5
Kaleb Joseph 15 6.7
Average 13.5 13.5
Comments: Of the 95 players who have played at least 20 minutes per game in the last 40 seasons, 88 of them have averaged 10.0 NP/40, confirming that that is a good indicator of a player who is good enough to start, even if someone else might be better. The closer you are to the basket, both vertically and horizontally, the better chance you have to accumulate the positive numbers that determine ‘net points’ and to avoid the negatives numbers. The big ticket items are points, missed field goals, rebounds and assists. If fouls are a big ticket item, you aren’t on these lists because you aren’t playing 20+ minutes a game. And, again, there are many things that aren’t recorded in the box score that matter, although the most statistically productive players tend to grade highly in those areas, as well.
Joe Girard is hanging with Lazarus Sims and Alan Griffin 1.0 as a point guard, although his skill set is closer to that of GMAC and John Gillon, (whose numbers are form their senior years). Sims was a non-scorer who did a great job running a team that made it to the national championship game and, as a bigger player, contributed much more to the defense helped us get there. Griffin was of a similar size but couldn’t shoot. However, he was much more athletic and actually recorded a triple-double. (he also made one of the best blocks I’ve ever seen.
Kadary Richmond clearly has a chance to be one of the best guards we’ve ever had here – if he stays here long enough, especially if he can develop a jump shot.
I have the same thoughts about Quincy Guerrier. He’s improved so much that he could become an All-American – but will he still be here when he gets that good.
Buddy Boeheim has gone 9.9/10.0/9.8 and will probably stay at that level, although he has developed some moves to the basket we didn’t see as a freshman. It’s hard for a shooting guard to put up big NP numbers. He can score but he’s shooting from farthest out and so will miss more shots, too. It’s hard to do a lot of rebounding out there and he’s not going to get a lot of assists. He can steal the ball but won’t get blocks. His turnovers and fouls should be low. But it’s basically points score minus shotts missed and that’s not going to get you a lot of NP. Michael Brown was a good comparison as they were about the same size. The Matt Roe comparison has been made but Matt in his beat year hit 47% of his three pointers! He benefits from having NBA-caliber big men inside who had to be covered and sometime double covered. Defense can go out to cover Buddy and not get burned so much inside.
Marek Dolezaj’s numbers are obviously impacted by the fact that we can’t play him at forward as we have no center. We haven’t found out what he could do playing full-time at his natural position, which I think is small forward, not power forward.
Alan Griffin has been so statistically productive that you wonder what he could accomplish if he ever learns JB’s offensive and defensive schemes. I also think that with a healthy Bourama, our best line-up would have bene Sidibe/Guerrier/Dolezaj/Griffin/Richmond. They might not have been as good early as a line-up with the returning backcourt but by now they’d be a top ten team and a possible national champion.
CENTERS
Rony Seikaly 87 22.4
Rick Jackson 11 22.1
Etan Thomas 99 21.9
Rakeem Christmas 15 21.6
Danny Schayes 81 20.3
LeRon Ellis 91 19.4
Conrad McRae 93 19.1
Arinze Onuaku 10 18.5
Otis Hill 97 17.8
Darryl Watkins 07 16.6
Fab Melo 12 16.1
Bourama Sidibe 20 15.8
Craig Forth 04 14.5
Paschal Chukwu 18 14.0
Average 18.6
POWER FORWARDS
Derrick Coleman 89 28.5
Billy Owens 91 26.7
Carmelo Anthony 03 22.9
John Wallace 95 22.7
Wes Johnson 10 22.4
Leo Rautins 83 21.3
Hakim Warrick 05 20.5
Wendell Alexis 86 20.3
Damone Brown 01 20.0
Paul Harris 08 18.9
Tyler Lydon 17 18.5
Arinze Onuaku 08 17.3
Ryan Blackwell 98 17.2
CJ Fair 13 16.3
Donte Greene 08 16.3
Tyler Roberson 16 15.4
Jerami Grant 14 15.3
Chris McCullough 15 15.2
Sean Kerins 84 15.0
Ron Payton 82 14.9
Terrence Roberts 07 14.5
Andre Hawkins 84 14.2
Oshae Brissett 18 13.9
Quincy Guerrier 20 12.5 (He’s 20.7 so far this year.)
Average 18.4
SMALL FORWARDS
Eric Santifer 83 21.0
Rafael Addison 86 20.1
Stevie Thompson 89 19.9
Lawrence Moten 94 19.6
Dave Johnson 91 18.3
Preston Shumpert 02 18.3
Demetris Nichols 07 17.9
Elijah Hughes 20 17.3 (Alan Griffin has 17.8 so far this year.)
Kris Joseph 10 16.6
Tony Bruin 83 16.5
James Southerland 13 16.4
Todd Burgan 98 16.2
Jason Cipolla 97 16.2
Josh Pace 04 16.2
Andrew White 17 15.3
Michael Gbinije 16 14.9
Marek Dolezaj 20 14.3 (He’s 14.9 so far this year)
Kueth Duany 02 13.3
Luke Jackson 95 12.8
Howie Triche 87 12.7
Marius Janulis 97 9.8
Malachi Richardson 16 9.7
Average 16.1
SHOOTING GUARDS
Dion Waiters 12 17.3
Andy Rautins 10 15.4
Greg Monroe 87 14.5
Brandon Triche 12 13.9
Eric Devendorf 08 13.3
Tyus Battle 19 12.7
Matt Roe 89 12.0
Marty Headd 81 11.6
Trevor Cooney 14 11.5
DeShaun Williams 02 10.7
Mike Hopkins 93 10.4
Tony Bland 00 10.1
Buddy Boeheim 20 10.0 (He’s at 9.8 so far this year.)
Michael Brown 85 10.0
Average 13.3 13.3
POINT GUARDS
Sherman Douglas 87 21.1
Pearl Washington 86 20.9
Billy Edelin 04 16.9
Adrian Autry 94 16.8 (Kadary Richmond is at 17.5 for far this year.)
Jonny Flynn 09 16.7
Scoop Jardine 10 16.5
Michael Carter-Williams 13 16.1
Tyler Ennis 14 14.7
John Gillon 17 14.4
Gerry McNamara 06 14.2
Michael Lloyd 95 13.3
Jason Hart 99 12.8
Joe Girard 20 11.8 (He’s also at 11.8 this year.)
Alan Griffin 01 11.8
Lazarus Sims 96 11.8
James Thues 02 11.2
Gene Waldron 83 11.1
Frank Howard 18 9.8
Josh Wright 07 9.8
Eddie Moss 81 9.6
Michael Edwards 90 9.5
Kaleb Joseph 15 6.7
Average 13.5 13.5
Comments: Of the 95 players who have played at least 20 minutes per game in the last 40 seasons, 88 of them have averaged 10.0 NP/40, confirming that that is a good indicator of a player who is good enough to start, even if someone else might be better. The closer you are to the basket, both vertically and horizontally, the better chance you have to accumulate the positive numbers that determine ‘net points’ and to avoid the negatives numbers. The big ticket items are points, missed field goals, rebounds and assists. If fouls are a big ticket item, you aren’t on these lists because you aren’t playing 20+ minutes a game. And, again, there are many things that aren’t recorded in the box score that matter, although the most statistically productive players tend to grade highly in those areas, as well.
Joe Girard is hanging with Lazarus Sims and Alan Griffin 1.0 as a point guard, although his skill set is closer to that of GMAC and John Gillon, (whose numbers are form their senior years). Sims was a non-scorer who did a great job running a team that made it to the national championship game and, as a bigger player, contributed much more to the defense helped us get there. Griffin was of a similar size but couldn’t shoot. However, he was much more athletic and actually recorded a triple-double. (he also made one of the best blocks I’ve ever seen.
Kadary Richmond clearly has a chance to be one of the best guards we’ve ever had here – if he stays here long enough, especially if he can develop a jump shot.
I have the same thoughts about Quincy Guerrier. He’s improved so much that he could become an All-American – but will he still be here when he gets that good.
Buddy Boeheim has gone 9.9/10.0/9.8 and will probably stay at that level, although he has developed some moves to the basket we didn’t see as a freshman. It’s hard for a shooting guard to put up big NP numbers. He can score but he’s shooting from farthest out and so will miss more shots, too. It’s hard to do a lot of rebounding out there and he’s not going to get a lot of assists. He can steal the ball but won’t get blocks. His turnovers and fouls should be low. But it’s basically points score minus shotts missed and that’s not going to get you a lot of NP. Michael Brown was a good comparison as they were about the same size. The Matt Roe comparison has been made but Matt in his beat year hit 47% of his three pointers! He benefits from having NBA-caliber big men inside who had to be covered and sometime double covered. Defense can go out to cover Buddy and not get burned so much inside.
Marek Dolezaj’s numbers are obviously impacted by the fact that we can’t play him at forward as we have no center. We haven’t found out what he could do playing full-time at his natural position, which I think is small forward, not power forward.
Alan Griffin has been so statistically productive that you wonder what he could accomplish if he ever learns JB’s offensive and defensive schemes. I also think that with a healthy Bourama, our best line-up would have bene Sidibe/Guerrier/Dolezaj/Griffin/Richmond. They might not have been as good early as a line-up with the returning backcourt but by now they’d be a top ten team and a possible national champion.
