If you are an opportunist and optimist the SU , OC positions is one of the best jobs still open | Syracusefan.com

If you are an opportunist and optimist the SU , OC positions is one of the best jobs still open

Don

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Look its all a matter of opportunity in the coaching business, its a nomadic culture anyway,

If im looking into openings to make my own way I look at the following
1) a chance to turn around a floundering offense in a P5 conference that already has a good running game and play most of its games in a fat trach dome or in southern weather
2) a coach currently that even if i turn around the offense is on shaky ground which if I do my job may lead to an opportunity for me for bigger and better things
3) Even if the coach stays on i can establish my credentials to produce and offense that gives me better OC jobs
4) almost all of this year's marque hc jobs are already gone so my next best opportunity ios to showcase mt skills and organization as an OC at a school that already has a couple of nice pieces to build on.

The big drawback is obviously the possible status of the current head coach which is both a problem and an opportunity.

If i dont see a better opportunity where i am i see a big chance for me to showcase my skills at both the school and other potential suitors who can offer me a better opportunity. If i have been passed over for head coaching jobs because i work under a great coach now or because i dont have experience at a P5 or people just say oh he already took over a good offense, this is my chance to really showcase my skills to bring instant results. So that works for me either as a steppingstone or possible replacement for the current coach.
 
Look its all a matter of opportunity in the coaching business, its a nomadic culture anyway,

If im looking into openings to make my own way I look at the following
1) a chance to turn around a floundering offense in a P5 conference that already has a good running game and play most of its games in a fat trach dome or in southern weather
2) a coach currently that even if i turn around the offense is on shaky ground which if I do my job may lead to an opportunity for me for bigger and better things
3) Even if the coach stays on i can establish my credentials to produce and offense that gives me better OC jobs
4) almost all of this year's marque hc jobs are already gone so my next best opportunity ios to showcase mt skills and organization as an OC at a school that already has a couple of nice pieces to build on.

The big drawback is obviously the possible status of the current head coach which is both a problem and an opportunity.

If i dont see a better opportunity where i am i see a big chance for me to showcase my skills at both the school and other potential suitors who can offer me a better opportunity. If i have been passed over for head coaching jobs because i work under a great coach now or because i dont have experience at a P5 or people just say oh he already took over a good offense, this is my chance to really showcase my skills to bring instant results. So that works for me either as a steppingstone or possible replacement for the current coach.
Really good points Don. There is opportunity here. I would add that I think that the salary will be "competitive" for the right guy willing to assume the risk.
 
Really good points Don. There is opportunity here. I would add that I think that the salary will be "competitive" for the right guy willing to assume the risk.

...And someone that is ok with "refining" our existing playbook (not installing their own.) Dino can't afford the time it will take to install a new offense and getting the right players to fit it.

This will be a non-starter for a lot of candidates, however.
 
What playbook? ;)

there-was-one-cruiser.gif
 
If an OC is successful then is HCDB going anywhere?
 
Of the dumb memes on this board is this “no playbook” thing. When this system was on - it absolutely cooked teams. Baylor was putting up video game numbers. Trying to build on that system in the dome was the correct move at the time.

*It got figured out.*

That does not mean it was crappy system. If another variation comes along or gets invented here - we should try it whether there is a “playbook” or not.
 
Of the dumb memes on this board is this “no playbook” thing. When this system was on - it absolutely cooked teams. Baylor was putting up video game numbers. Trying to build on that system in the dome was the correct move at the time.

*It got figured out.*

That does not mean it was crappy system. If another variation comes along or gets invented here - we should try it whether there is a “playbook” or not.

TBH, this program has never been "On" since Dino took over. They have had offensive success with Dungey and Garrett creating offense by themselves but Dino's offense pales in comparison to the high level that Rodgers/DeLeone had Syracuse humming at in 97-98. That was the high water mark of a Syracuse offense exerting its will on the opponent through the pro style option. Certainly having McNabb/Harrison/Rob Konrad helped but they had a playbook that supported their talent.

Dino's offense has been a massive failure. No other way to label it. I was promised fast and high scoring. We got fast 3 and outs for the most part.

W the RB and QB we have now, they need to think northeast ground and pound because that is the personnel we need to lean on. We went square peg round hole last year.
 
Agree with the OP that our open OC/QB coaching position is an attractive opportunity.

The issues are location (snow belt), challenge to win in the ACC, and Dino’s tenure. Positives — the QB room is in good shape, key starters return, opportunity to develop Shrader, DC and ST coordinator in place. Develop or find one good receiver and one good OT and the prospects for the offense to improve are good.
 
Agree with the OP that our open OC/QB coaching position is an attractive opportunity.

The issues are location (snow belt), challenge to win in the ACC, and Dino’s tenure. Positives — the QB room is in good shape, key starters return, opportunity to develop Shrader, DC and ST coordinator in place. Develop or find one good receiver and one good OT and the prospects for the offense to improve are good.
The location thing is overblown. Most of the Big Ten schools have colder, longer winters than CNY (or on par). I'll grant that we almost certainly get more snow, but I think that aids the aesthetics if anything; it's not like most of these kids have long daily commutes that it interferes with. Agree with everything else, though!
 
The location thing is overblown. Most of the Big Ten schools have colder, longer winters than CNY (or on par). I'll grant that we almost certainly get more snow, but I think that aids the aesthetics if anything; it's not like most of these kids have long daily commutes that it interferes with. Agree with everything else, though!
Syracuse is the snowiest major city in the US and the 5th snowiest in the world. No comparison with the Big Ten cities at all. Not by a longshot. Even the worst ones get less than half of Syracuse's snowfall. I think that can be a shock to anyone who didn't grow up in CNY but only through their freshman year. As a townie who went to SU, it never really occurred to me that everywhere else didn't have insane snowfall until my freshman friends made a big deal out of it. If they were from Buffalo or Rochester, no problem. Everywhere else, though, and there was an adaptation period for them.

On the other hand, it generally is colder in January in several (not most) B10 cities than it gets in CNY. Living in a northern B10 city, as I do, our winters are generally shorter than CNY though. Although snow accumulation in November or March is not uncommon, it isn't really the norm either. We usually don't get real snow until mid-December and it is not uncommon for my yard to be more or less snow-free by Valentine's Day. I ski weekly in the winter and the ski centers in my general area are done for the season between mid-Feb and early March. I could go today but there wouldn't be any point in it. Temps in the 40's and what base there is...and there ain't much...would be very soft.

All that aside, I agree that the location of SU is overblown to a degree. We play indoors, there are a lot of cities that are gloomier, chilly and damp winters can be found in a lot of P5 cities, and unless the choice is between SU and a southern city, our weather is not outrageously worse than some P5 places overall (snowfall aside). I think it falls into the category of "excuses for why we can't be good."
 
TBH, this program has never been "On" since Dino took over. They have had offensive success with Dungey and Garrett creating offense by themselves but Dino's offense pales in comparison to the high level that Rodgers/DeLeone had Syracuse humming at in 97-98. That was the high water mark of a Syracuse offense exerting its will on the opponent through the pro style option. Certainly having McNabb/Harrison/Rob Konrad helped but they had a playbook that supported their talent.

Dino's offense has been a massive failure. No other way to label it. I was promised fast and high scoring. We got fast 3 and outs for the most part.

W the RB and QB we have now, they need to think northeast ground and pound because that is the personnel we need to lean on. We went square peg round hole last year.
1. Yeah, it’s been less than great. “Massive failure” puts too much on ED. It was the system and a great CFB QB at the same time. The output offensively was pretty high in our ten win season.

2. I was a fan of those teams and am aware of Rodgers/DeLeone. Fun times.

3. You take a chance on a system that lets you do more with less and *sometimes* it works. The lesson from both eras should be pretty simple: we need good innovative systems and it’s worth trying.

4. The lesson should not be “ground and pound” unless it’s innovative or allows us to win with lesser talent. The talent overall on offense will not allow us to dominate.

5. As with DeLeone, it’s right system right time with the a great QB. Going back to that specific offense is pure folly. Dino’s system was aging in 2018 and by 2019 wasn’t working anymore. It happens. Pining for 98 is a fools gambit. Finding the next innovative OC or HC is the game.
 
The location thing is overblown. Most of the Big Ten schools have colder, longer winters than CNY (or on par). I'll grant that we almost certainly get more snow, but I think that aids the aesthetics if anything; it's not like most of these kids have long daily commutes that it interferes with. Agree with everything else, though!
I mentioned location because that is something that is likely to be a factor for a new OC and his wife and family. You might compare the weather in Minny, or Northwestern, or Wisconsin, but not the other B10 cities. Upstate NY has its charms, for some — at least no tornadoes, wildfires, mudslides, sweltering heat, earthquakes, or zombie investations.

And I still believe we have an attractive opportunity for a rising OC candidate.
 
I mentioned location because that is something that is likely to be a factor for a new OC and his wife and family. You might compare the weather in Minny, or Northwestern, or Wisconsin, but not the other B10 cities. Upstate NY has its charms, for some — at least no tornadoes, wildfires, mudslides, sweltering heat, earthquakes, or zombie investations.

And I still believe we have an attractive opportunity for a rising OC candidate.
Every location but Rutgers and Maryland is comparable or worse in terms of weather. We also have a dome. I agree with your other thought, but let's be honest here: SU's overall struggles are not due to weather.
 
Every location but Rutgers and Maryland is comparable or worse in terms of weather. We also have a dome. I agree with your other thought, but let's be honest here: SU's overall struggles are not due to weather.
No - it’s absolutely a combination of things including weather.
 
One thing that must be discussed when it comes to the offensive coordinator position under Dino is that, going into just his 7th season, this will be his 4th OC. That is pretty staggering when you think about it, especially when only the first left on his own. The last two were duds, bad hires by the head coach, and had to be fired.

It is surprising, given Dino's offensive background, that he swung and missed so badly on his last two trips to the plate (to toss a baseball metaphor into football).

I think the job is not particularly attractive right now, for all the risk factors so obvious to all of us. If a guy can come in, quickly shore up the leaks in the boat and help Dino keep his job, then it is a great opportunity for that guy IF he is up to the task. But it won't be easy, not by a long shot, and Dino really needs to get this one right.
 
One thing that must be discussed when it comes to the offensive coordinator position under Dino is that, going into just his 7th season, this will be his 4th OC. That is pretty staggering when you think about it, especially when only the first left on his own. The last two were duds, bad hires by the head coach, and had to be fired.

It is surprising, given Dino's offensive background, that he swung and missed so badly on his last two trips to the plate (to toss a baseball metaphor into football).

I think the job is not particularly attractive right now, for all the risk factors so obvious to all of us. If a guy can come in, quickly shore up the leaks in the boat and help Dino keep his job, then it is a great opportunity for that guy IF he is up to the task. But it won't be easy, not by a long shot, and Dino really needs to get this one right.
Some good points - agree with most.

The first OC left for a HC gig. I don’t think that’s a negative for Dino. Lynch is still on staff.

I also like that he’s willing to change. A lot of HC’s don’t. But on the whole, given the results - yeah - gotta nail this one.
 
Some good points - agree with most.

The first OC left for a HC gig. I don’t think that’s a negative for Dino. Lynch is still on staff.

I also like that he’s willing to change. A lot of HC’s don’t. But on the whole, given the results - yeah - gotta nail this one.

I mentioned that the first one left on his own, and I agree that's not remotely a negative for Dino. You want your good coordinators to be attractive and it's a sign that the HC had good judgement. Lynch is still on the staff, but he didn't work out at OC.

I'm not so much sure that Dino is willing to change as much as he has been told that he has to make changes. There is a difference. Of course, that is not for us to know. Or not for me to know, anyway. In a way, he is fortunate that he has been allowed to keep his job long enough to make those changes. Not all coaches are under these circumstances..

I think my point, however, is that 4 OC's in 7 years is abnormal for any program unless you have had a lot of guys moving on to better positions. We have not.

I have long since divested myself of faith in Dino. I always thought that the whole "belief without evidence" thing was great for someone applying for a clergy position but nothing more than a sales pitch for a football coach. Still, Dino is still with us and I want him to be successful...wildly successful in fact, because that means SU will be wildly successful and that is all that matters to me. I hope he pulls a rabbit out of his hat on this hire. Fingers crossed but I will need evidence because my faith is shaken.
 
I mentioned that the first one left on his own, and I agree that's not remotely a negative for Dino. You want your good coordinators to be attractive and it's a sign that the HC had good judgement. Lynch is still on the staff, but he didn't work out at OC.

I'm not so much sure that Dino is willing to change as much as he has been told that he has to make changes. There is a difference. Of course, that is not for us to know. Or not for me to know, anyway. In a way, he is fortunate that he has been allowed to keep his job long enough to make those changes. Not all coaches are under these circumstances..

I think my point, however, is that 4 OC's in 7 years is abnormal for any program unless you have had a lot of guys moving on to better positions. We have not.

I have long since divested myself of faith in Dino. I always thought that the whole "belief without evidence" thing was great for someone applying for a clergy position but nothing more than a sales pitch for a football coach. Still, Dino is still with us and I want him to be successful...wildly successful in fact, because that means SU will be wildly successful and that is all that matters to me. I hope he pulls a rabbit out of his hat on this hire. Fingers crossed but I will need evidence because my faith is shaken.
Well said.
 
Are we still advertising "Orange is the New Fast?"

I think that was mistake #1. The mindset never fit the offense successfully. It was a gimmick.
 
1. Yeah, it’s been less than great. “Massive failure” puts too much on ED. It was the system and a great CFB QB at the same time. The output offensively was pretty high in our ten win season.

2. I was a fan of those teams and am aware of Rodgers/DeLeone. Fun times.

3. You take a chance on a system that lets you do more with less and *sometimes* it works. The lesson from both eras should be pretty simple: we need good innovative systems and it’s worth trying.

4. The lesson should not be “ground and pound” unless it’s innovative or allows us to win with lesser talent. The talent overall on offense will not allow us to dominate.

5. As with DeLeone, it’s right system right time with the a great QB. Going back to that specific offense is pure folly. Dino’s system was aging in 2018 and by 2019 wasn’t working anymore. It happens. Pining for 98 is a fools gambit. Finding the next innovative OC or HC is the game.
Regarding 5, the DeLeone offense worked with Marvin Graves, for 2/3 of the season it worked with Kevin Mason (of all people) and it worked with McNabb (and prob would have worked with Keith Downing had McNabb gone to Nebraska).

I'm not pining for 97/98 (actually i'm pining for it). I'm not looking to just plug that offense into 2021 and think we're good to go. I'm saying that was a precision offense. Dino has run a terrible offense and has managed games like a blind person. I like the man personally but that's the facts. He runs into losses and manages situational football really really bad. Having no plays under center to me is criminal.

I do think this next OC is going to determine if he's coaching in 23 or not. HUGE hire. Hope the hire realizes what he has at QB/RB and runs accordingly
 
Are we still advertising "Orange is the New Fast?"

I think that was mistake #1. The mindset never fit the offense successfully. It was a gimmick.
Did you pay attention to CFB during those years at all? Tempo was not a gimmick. Look at Ole Miss currently!

That's like saying the freeze option was a gimmick.
 
Regarding 5, the DeLeone offense worked with Marvin Graves, for 2/3 of the season it worked with Kevin Mason (of all people) and it worked with McNabb (and prob would have worked with Keith Downing had McNabb gone to Nebraska).

I'm not pining for 97/98 (actually i'm pining for it). I'm not looking to just plug that offense into 2021 and think we're good to go. I'm saying that was a precision offense. Dino has run a terrible offense and has managed games like a blind person. I like the man personally but that's the facts. He runs into losses and manages situational football really really bad. Having no plays under center to me is criminal.

I do think this next OC is going to determine if he's coaching in 23 or not. HUGE hire. Hope the hire realizes what he has at QB/RB and runs accordingly
I think you're due a deep dive into the system's history. I don't need to convince you - the numbers should.

Google "veer and shoot" or any article on Baylor re: that time. The simplicity and tempo worked together and re-wrote many record books, set CFB on fire for 10+ years.

That it stopped working in the last 3-4 years is why the Big 12 has become a defensive league. That it stopped working shortly after we hire Dino is the biggest reason for our struggles, bar none.
 
I think you're due a deep dive into the system's history. I don't need to convince you - the numbers should.

Google "veer and shoot" or any article on Baylor re: that time. The simplicity and tempo worked together and re-wrote many record books, set CFB on fire for 10+ years.

That it stopped working in the last 3-4 years is why the Big 12 has become a defensive league. That it stopped working shortly after we hire Dino is the biggest reason for our struggles, bar none.

It was a gimmick. Similar to the K-Gun at Buffalo, Mouse Davis offense, etc. They ultimately are deconstructed. What isn't a gimmick is a team with good line play, good special teams and a team that can run the ball and stop the run. Watch the Patriots game last MNF against the Bills. A master class on how to win a football game by doing nothing but running and stopping the run.

The Orangemen need to get back to quality line play, simplified and game management offense and we'll win some games again. Marrone was on to this template, Shafer couldn't coach and Dino tried to install a gimmick offense that proved to be it (Big 12 not running it anymore).

Our biggest struggle is Dino isn't a good coach on game day and has run faulty systems which make the problem worse. What Dino is good at is he's a leader of men and guys like to play for him. I'm hoping he figures out that simple is the new slow and we need to figure out ways to win games with what we have.
 
One thing that must be discussed when it comes to the offensive coordinator position under Dino is that, going into just his 7th season, this will be his 4th OC. That is pretty staggering when you think about it, especially when only the first left on his own. The last two were duds, bad hires by the head coach, and had to be fired.

It is surprising, given Dino's offensive background, that he swung and missed so badly on his last two trips to the plate (to toss a baseball metaphor into football).

I think the job is not particularly attractive right now, for all the risk factors so obvious to all of us. If a guy can come in, quickly shore up the leaks in the boat and help Dino keep his job, then it is a great opportunity for that guy IF he is up to the task. But it won't be easy, not by a long shot, and Dino really needs to get this one right.

I think we have to find that damaged goods guy who can resurrect himself at Syracuse. Think Orgeron in the mid 90s. We had no business bringing him in but P saw something in him trying to right his life.
 

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