Let's Talk a Little Xs and Os...

[sutomcat]

Hoping to get some of our coaches and other knowledgeable football posters to weigh in on this. Please let me know your thoughts. I think this will be interesting for many to know more about.

For most of the season, we have seen SU line up mostly with Tucker behind the QB, with an H back on a wing, a TE and 2 WRs. Some variations on this, sometimes 3 WRs no TE, every once in a while 4 WRs, no H back, etc.

But at some point (I think is was relatively late in the V Tech game) we started using a 5 WR naked backfield look a lot. As in almost every play.

It worked against the Hokies. Really well. I was curious if we were use it against BC as well. And it turns out we did. A lot.

At first glance, it seems like a bad move. Why take Tucker out of the game completely or leave him in and have him line up wide, so far from the action? Especially given we do not have a bounty of capable WRs to rely upon right now.

I think a big reason why is to react to what defenses have been doing to us. Shrader has established himself as a weapon and teams are starting to use a spy against him. A spy is a defender whose sole job is to stay in front of Shrader and not let him get past the LOS.

That naked backfield formation spreads a defense as much as possible, and forces the DC to make some tough choices.

They want to sub in extra DBs to make it easier to cover everyone but if they do, Tucker can motion back to the backfield and the offense has a big advantage against undersized defenders.

It also makes it hard to keep a defender assigned to spy the QB (or Tucker for that matter). Trying to cover the entire field with presumably only 7 defenders (assuming 3 will be rushing the QB and the fourth spying the QB) is almost impossible and really exposes things for long passes (like the one Shrader threw to Alford to beat VT), where the guys covering receivers are not going to get much help from the safeties.

Anyway, I think this is why we are using the naked backfield look so much these days. Correct? Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated. Personally, it looked to me as though Shrader had an injury that prevented him from throwing the ball accurately and that saved BC from losing by 40. Hope he is able to heal up over the next 2 weeks and be 100% down the stretch.

 

[upperdeck]

the Oline blocking issues have been off stunts and blitzes more than 1x1 pressures most of the time.. if you go 5 wide and they want to send more than 4 then they need to go cover zero or single high and that only leaves 1 guy left to send and identify or else he stays as a spy. Shrader has done well making 1 guy miss and suddenly the run is there when he does.

the other option is to play zone against the 5 wide and again thats less pressure. It really helps the blocking assignments. Now if teams want to cover the 5 and send the spy they better get him or there will be no one watching him run around.

One thing that we have done a bit more of is go to the 5 set and bring him back, that forces the D to show zone/man much earlier and that helps in the play calling.

 

[JRHEETER]

Hoping to get some of our coaches and other knowledgeable football posters to weigh in on this. Please let me know your thoughts. I think this will be interesting for many to know more about.

For most of the season, we have seen SU line up mostly with Tucker behind the QB, with an H back on a wing, a TE and 2 WRs. Some variations on this, sometimes 3 WRs no TE, every once in a while 4 WRs, no H back, etc.

But at some point (I think is was relatively late in the V Tech game) we started using a 5 WR naked backfield look a lot. As in almost every play.

It worked against the Hokies. Really well. I was curious if we were use it against BC as well. And it turns out we did. A lot.

At first glance, it seems like a bad move. Why take Tucker out of the game completely or leave him in and have him line up wide, so far from the action? Especially given we do not have a bounty of capable WRs to rely upon right now.

I think a big reason why is to react to what defenses have been doing to us. Shrader has established himself as a weapon and teams are starting to use a spy against him. A spy is a defender whose sole job is to stay in front of Shrader and not let him get past the LOS.

That naked backfield formation spreads a defense as much as possible, and forces the DC to make some tough choices.

They want to sub in extra DBs to make it easier to cover everyone but if they do, Tucker can motion back to the backfield and the offense has a big advantage against undersized defenders.

It also makes it hard to keep a defender assigned to spy the QB (or Tucker for that matter). Trying to cover the entire field with presumably only 7 defenders (assuming 3 will be rushing the QB and the fourth spying the QB) is almost impossible and really exposes things for long passes (like the one Shrader threw to Alford to beat VT), where the guys covering receivers are not going to get much help from the safeties.

Anyway, I think this is why we are using the naked backfield look so much these days. Correct? Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated. Personally, it looked to me as though Shrader had an injury that prevented him from throwing the ball accurately and that saved BC from losing by 40. Hope he is able to heal up over the next 2 weeks and be 100% down the stretch.

Just a guess here with no inside info, but if I had to guess from the way he was getting up and Saturday and his stance waiting between plays I would guess he has a broken rib or two

rough guess tho and no inside info just pure speculation

 

[Apdaly]

I noticed 5 wide as well but also saw it with Tucker wide. They either stayed 5 wide or motioned Tucker back in. Think it’s just another way for Shrader, coaches, oline to get a read on what defense is called what potential stunts and blitzers are coming.

Edit, sorry just realized this same exact thing was posted above…

 

[FrancoPizza]

Just a guess here with no inside info, but if I had to guess from the way he was getting up and Saturday and his stance waiting between plays I would guess he has a broken rib or two

rough guess tho and no inside info just pure speculation

Can you honestly play with broken ribs? And if so, can you honestly expect it to heal in 2 weeks? If I remember TD last year, he wasn't the same runner after those injuries. We'd need Shrader at 100% or close to it to have a chance to beat any of the last 3.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I think the ability to flex Tucker is key here. He has to be respected as a receiver, even stretched wide, which further forces the defense's hand. So it's not like putting him out wide makes it a 10 on 11, and the threat of an audible to take advantage of the defense is huge.

 

[JRHEETER]

Can you honestly play with broken ribs? And if so, can you honestly expect it to heal in 2 weeks? If I remember TD last year, he wasn't the same runner after those injuries. We'd need Shrader at 100% or close to it to have a chance to beat any of the last 3.

Not sure if they are broken or severely bruised or even injured at all.

Just the way he looked on Saturday between plays….he looked 100% fine tho during plays

but if he had any issues with his upper body, it would make sense why his throwing seemed to big time regress from previous weeks

Shrader is a warrior like Dungey and will play through anything…these two weeks are big time needed

 

[syrBossHogg]

Shrader looks comfortable passing out of an empty formation IMO. He can read the coverages fine and his running ability forces a LB to spy him, which prevents the LB from playing coverage and thus opening up the middle of the field.

I think it also helps the young WRs since they're asked to run less complex routes and get the ball in their hands for YAC, rather than forcing them to be great at route running for downfield plays.

 

[sutomcat]

Shrader looks comfortable passing out of an empty formation IMO. He can read the coverages fine and his running ability forces a LB to spy him, which prevents the LB from playing coverage and thus opening up the middle of the field.

I think it also helps the young WRs since they're asked to run less complex routes and get the ball in their hands for YAC, rather than forcing them to be great at route running for downfield plays.

Agree with all of this. When we have an H-back and a TE or even an RB in the mix on passing plays, it seems to complicate things a bit for Garrett. Maybe it is harder for him to escape the pocket, might be harder to survey the field and it seems like he usually has less time to throw (maybe because it is tough to blitz with the defense so spread out).

One of the things I think defines a good coordinator is the ability to make in game changes to strategy, and address issues relatively quickly as they arise.

We haven't done great here for most of the season but I am seeing some improvements in the last couple of games that are encouraging.

 

[JackBauer44]

I’ve had limited viewing of the games over the past two weeks, but I can give my thoughts as a former DC.

I had this a lot when coaching football in North Carolina. The spread was really starting to take off and RPOs were a regular thing in our conference. In our defense, we really excelled against the run. We had some bigger LBs that read well, engaged well, and were smart. The hardest part for me was when teams went 5 wide and I had to make a decision to leave our base defense and transition to our Nickel or Dime coverage. Our DBs didn’t have great depth so if I left my LBs in, they would struggle against slots who were shifty and quick. We had to play a lot more zone coverage, which can benefit the offense of you scheme and play call right.

I think with Shraders case, who excelled when we went 5 wide and spread out against VT, the more spread out the better. When we have Elmore, and TEs in the game, routes are going to be short where the defense (individual players) don’t have as much zone to cover and more help Can be provided by the secondary. Passing offenses don’t like tightness. With things more spread out, it gives Shrader the option to be more aggressive with hai legs because there’s more space. This offense gets to the next level of dangerous with Tucker in the slot on 5 wide, where he can motion in to the backfield when needed. You make the DC make a choice for who
You want in the game and what the base d will be. You can find mismatches depending on what the decision is.

Count me in the ballpark of wanting to see more open formations like that. I think we’d start to put up more points consistently.

Just my thoughts. Apologize for any spelling or grammar issues. I did this on my phone.

 

[All4SU]

We haven't done great here for most of the season but I am seeing some improvements in the last couple of games that are encouraging.

I would guess some of that is a result of having to completely scrap the offense for GS, and gradually incorporating more variables as teams react. A season- long process.

 

[All4SU]

How long before we see Tucker throw a pass?

 

[007]

Shrader really likes the 5WR sets (he has mentioned this in interviews). As you mentioned, leaving Tucker in presents an additional challenge for the D as does accounting for Shrader's running out of this formation. I like it a lot, especially because Shrader likes it, and I think we will see more of it. The 3x2 formations are base. I wonder if they will experiment with bunched sets on the 3 side.

Also, BC was using 2 guys to spy on passing downs in cover 2 in an attempt to force Shrader to throw/not run. The 3x2 is an interesting counter to that. It pretty much guarantees you will get a man look with 1 high.

 

[Millhouse]

Agree with all of this. When we have an H-back and a TE or even an RB in the mix on passing plays, it seems to complicate things a bit for Garrett. Maybe it is harder for him to escape the pocket, might be harder to survey the field and it seems like he usually has less time to throw (maybe because it is tough to blitz with the defense so spread out).

One of the things I think defines a good coordinator is the ability to make in game changes to strategy, and address issues relatively quickly as they arise.

We haven't done great here for most of the season but I am seeing some improvements in the last couple of games that are encouraging.

Tight ends and h backs versatile enough to create mismatches in space and block a defender in the box are unicorns. Subpar wr can take someone with them to the boundary. Makes it easy for Shrader to decide what to do. Use your best player to reveal the defenses intentions. Makes it easy to tell your QB one read and then go

If they put a speedster in to deal with Tucker split out , bring Tucker in to bring that defender in the box and run that defender over

 

[David332]

Shrader said in the post game that BC schemed them pretty well in the first half, which they made small adjustments for. The rest of the conference will have that tape now so we will continue to have to make those same minor adjustments.

 

[Timonen]

It feels like that spread goes away as we get near the goal line which continues to baffle me.