Lewis/Babers Question | Syracusefan.com

Lewis/Babers Question

Entropic

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I mentioned this stat in another thread but have a broader question.

In 2020 Kent State was 3rd in plays per game and Syracuse was 118th. So far in 2021 Kent State is 14th and Syracuse is 86th but really running the same amount of plays (63) as 2020.

Does anyone know how long Lewis was with Babers? Was Lewis the entire architect and driver for OITNF and actually executed it or is this solely on the execution and pre-reads by the QB?
 

syrBossHogg

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Lewis was hired by Dino as a WR/TE coach at Eastern Illinois in 2012, followed him to Bowling Green and then to here. He became an offensive coordinator when they were both at Bowling Green.
 

Entropic

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Upon further review I have no idea what happened.

2015 - Syracuse was 127th in plays per game (63)
2016 - Syracuse was 8th in plays per game (83.8)
2017 - Syracuse was 1st in plays per game (87.8)
2018 - Syracuse was 2nd in plays per game (84.3)
2019 - Syracuse was 4th in plays per game (80.5)
2020 - Syracuse was 119th in plays per game (63.1)
2021 - Syracuse is currently 86th in players per game (64)

Dungey was QB 2015-2018, Babers came in 2016-Present and Lewis left after the 2017 season. I would like to say it was Lewis but then 2018 and 2019 wouldn't make sense. I would like to say it was Dungey but then 2019 doesn't line up with that. I am not sure what to make of it.
 

PhatOrange

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Upon further review I have no idea what happened.

2015 - Syracuse was 127th in plays per game (63)
2016 - Syracuse was 8th in plays per game (83.8)
2017 - Syracuse was 1st in plays per game (87.8)
2018 - Syracuse was 2nd in plays per game (84.3)
2019 - Syracuse was 4th in plays per game (80.5)
2020 - Syracuse was 119th in plays per game (63.1)
2021 - Syracuse is currently 86th in players per game (64)

Dungey was QB 2015-2018, Babers came in 2016-Present and Lewis left after the 2017 season. I would like to say it was Lewis but then 2018 and 2019 wouldn't make sense. I would like to say it was Dungey but then 2019 doesn't line up with that. I am not sure what to make of it.

Gilbert?
 

syrBossHogg

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Upon further review I have no idea what happened.

2015 - Syracuse was 127th in plays per game (63)
2016 - Syracuse was 8th in plays per game (83.8)
2017 - Syracuse was 1st in plays per game (87.8)
2018 - Syracuse was 2nd in plays per game (84.3)
2019 - Syracuse was 4th in plays per game (80.5)
2020 - Syracuse was 119th in plays per game (63.1)
2021 - Syracuse is currently 86th in players per game (64)

Dungey was QB 2015-2018, Babers came in 2016-Present and Lewis left after the 2017 season. I would like to say it was Lewis but then 2018 and 2019 wouldn't make sense. I would like to say it was Dungey but then 2019 doesn't line up with that. I am not sure what to make of it.

It's a combination of factors rather than one single thing. Bad QB play + bad OL play + undisciplined play + inconsistent playcalling.
 

Entropic

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It's a combination of factors rather than one single thing. Bad QB play + bad OL play + undisciplined play + inconsistent playcalling.
I guess that would have to make sense. Going 3 and out makes it hard to run up the plays per game numbers.
 

OrangeFoo

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Upon further review I have no idea what happened.

2015 - Syracuse was 127th in plays per game (63)
2016 - Syracuse was 8th in plays per game (83.8)
2017 - Syracuse was 1st in plays per game (87.8)
2018 - Syracuse was 2nd in plays per game (84.3)
2019 - Syracuse was 4th in plays per game (80.5)
2020 - Syracuse was 119th in plays per game (63.1)
2021 - Syracuse is currently 86th in players per game (64)

Dungey was QB 2015-2018, Babers came in 2016-Present and Lewis left after the 2017 season. I would like to say it was Lewis but then 2018 and 2019 wouldn't make sense. I would like to say it was Dungey but then 2019 doesn't line up with that. I am not sure what to make of it.

Wasn't the o-line historically bad in 2020?
 

JackBauer44

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Upon further review I have no idea what happened.

2015 - Syracuse was 127th in plays per game (63)
2016 - Syracuse was 8th in plays per game (83.8)
2017 - Syracuse was 1st in plays per game (87.8)
2018 - Syracuse was 2nd in plays per game (84.3)
2019 - Syracuse was 4th in plays per game (80.5)
2020 - Syracuse was 119th in plays per game (63.1)
2021 - Syracuse is currently 86th in players per game (64)

Dungey was QB 2015-2018, Babers came in 2016-Present and Lewis left after the 2017 season. I would like to say it was Lewis but then 2018 and 2019 wouldn't make sense. I would like to say it was Dungey but then 2019 doesn't line up with that. I am not sure what to make of it.

I feel like this is a perfect question setup for SWC75 for the next Thursday Radio show.
 

orangenauburn

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It makes sense

We tried what worked in 2017 and 2018, again in 2019.

Only it didn't work with new field general. And we slowed things down in 2020 and 2021
 

Entropic

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Wasn't the o-line historically bad in 2020?
That 2019 OL was not very good either. It was a younger less experienced Servais and Vetterello along with Heckle, Evan Adams and Anthony Red. I believe Ryan Alexander ended in the lineup at some point. That line gave up 50 sacks which was the 3rd most in NCAAF.
 

TheCusian

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Think it’s OL play 1st. I think the Baylor system got figured out and it needed to evolve. I’d bet Lewis did that and that’s why we brought in Gilbert. Seems like he can’t either.

It’s a great question. Maybe a media member will get to it after he asks about the guy who is injured
 

LeMoyneCuse

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The talent difference is vast between the MAC and the ACC. Kent can get away without the speed needed to run the system Babers brought in because no one in the MAC has speed. Cuse doesn't have speed either and has struggled to recruit it. That's long been exposed in the ACC, where many teams have speed.
 

Entropic

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Think it’s OL play 1st. I think the Baylor system got figured out and it needed to evolve. I’d bet Lewis did that and that’s why we brought in Gilbert. Seems like he can’t either.

It’s a great question. Maybe a media member will get to it after he asks about the guy who is injured
I was trying to figure out who is left running the Baylor system. Regardless of the system I think going fast is a huge benefit but I don't think we trust our QB with the keys to run a hurry up. The slow offense reeks to me as a lack of confidence and cohesion.
 

DPCuse

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I'm sold this is the reason we slowed things up.

When your offense can move the ball, the up tempo works to your advantage because it gives the defense a rest and tires out the other team and you have an advantage late in the game. That was us with Dungey.

When your offense goes 3 and out too much, your defense becomes tired and gets exposed. The margin of score gets wider and wider. That was us the last few years with a poor O line and youth.

If you have a severe talent differential between your team and the opponent, you usually opt to slow things down to keep the score closer allowing you an opportunity to stay in the game and if a break or two go your way, you might win.

You can't run up and down the field and win on a regular basis against superior talent.
 

Millhouse

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Think it’s OL play 1st. I think the Baylor system got figured out and it needed to evolve. I’d bet Lewis did that and that’s why we brought in Gilbert. Seems like he can’t either.

It’s a great question. Maybe a media member will get to it after he asks about the guy who is injured
Why do you think that?

When our players would fall miserably in every system, it's hard for me to say the system doesn't work. It's possible, but who could know?
 

Millhouse

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I'm sold this is the reason we slowed things up.

When your offense can move the ball, the up tempo works to your advantage because it gives the defense a rest and tires out the other team and you have an advantage late in the game. That was us with Dungey.

When your offense goes 3 and out too much, your defense becomes tired and gets exposed. The margin of score gets wider and wider. That was us the last few years with a poor O line and youth.

If you have a severe talent differential between your team and the opponent, you usually opt to slow things down to keep the score closer allowing you an opportunity to stay in the game and if a break or two go your way, you might win.

You can't run up and down the field and win on a regular basis against superior talent.
It's what you do when you don't like your lineup and literally want to play less football. It's really like quitting in a way.
 

chugg21

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I guess that would have to make sense. Going 3 and out makes it hard to run up the plays per game numbers.
This is the very simple answer to the question.
 

sufandu

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It's a combination of things that boils down to Dino not having the confidence in the offense. When we were humming along there was a lot less run to the LOS and then look to the sideline. Even when we couldn't run the ball, we would use the short passing game to keep the chains moving. It's why Philips caught a million balls for about 8 yards per catch. When that wasn't there, Dungey ran for first downs until he got hurt. In 2019 we kept it going to a lesser extent but couldn't convert yards to points due to a lack of a running game, especially in the redzone.

I think a poor offensive line, a QB that struggles to make post snap reads, and WRs that drop way too many balls has Dino shell shocked.
 

TheCusian

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Why do you think that?

When our players would fall miserably in every system, it's hard for me to say the system doesn't work. It's possible, but who could know?
I think *any* system would look bad with the 2019 and 2020 OL play. Awful and exasperated by a QB who is less mobile and bad at freelancing.

This part is just a theory, but I think it's plausible:

Wake started running our offense in 2017 (Walford's last year). Dino alluded to it being a surprise and weird. In 2018, Eric was able to mitigate and correct some of the corrections defenses were making to combat the Baylor offense; in essence a kind of hybrid with a running QB as the wildcard. Midway through the game vs Maryland, it seemed like they knew all of our plays pre-snap, we stopped going fast for good. The end of tempo. Why? Quick reads and RPO's and spread out WR made it work. Tempo doesn't work if the defense knows what's coming.

Who is running the true Baylor offense well right now?
 

Millhouse

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I think *any* system would look bad with the 2019 and 2020 OL play. Awful and exasperated by a QB who is less mobile and bad at freelancing.

This part is just a theory, but I think it's plausible:

Wake started running our offense in 2017 (Walford's last year). Dino alluded to it being a surprise and weird. In 2018, Eric was able to mitigate and correct some of the corrections defenses were making to combat the Baylor offense; in essence a kind of hybrid with a running QB as the wildcard. Midway through the game vs Maryland, it seemed like they knew all of our plays pre-snap, we stopped going fast for good. The end of tempo. Why? Quick reads and RPO's and spread out WR made it work. Tempo doesn't work if the defense knows what's coming.

Who is running the true Baylor offense well right now?
I don't think that the number of teams running an offense is a great way to evaluate it. Air raid was great for thirty years and it's still uncommon
 

upperdeck

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if you have the players your offense works. when you dont most dont work. I think we need one more piece of the oline playing well . hopefully its when Davis comes back. the center/rg/rt are still inconsistent and we are trying to hide that too much.

If we had a clear #1 WR I think the offense would be better too. Someone the D had to bracket or double or worry about . If we had Ish/Custis to get over the top then Taj would be great as the #2. We really need that deep guy with speed. Someone the safety has to always worry about. Taj needs to be more like Phillips but that play seems to have left the play book.
 

SUskibum

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DFB is so cryptic it’s hard to tell but reading between the lines over the years he comes off as a guy who gameplans the opposite of what JB does.

What I mean is that fans often criticize JB for running an offense that is too simple, predictable or dependent on one or two players individual skills. The logic is this makes it easier to defend.

The problem with the fan logic, that JB realizes (hence >1k wins and no <.500 seasons) is that he only runs stuff that his players are able to run. He only lets players who are the best on the team dominate scoring attempts. He knows that if he spreads the ball around or ran concepts that involved more players or overall intricacy that he COULD have better overall results. HOWEVER JB is smart enough to realize when he doesn’t have the players to run for the OPTIMAL situation and decides to run what’s best for his current team and minimize the impact of his weakest players and maximize the impact of his best players.

I am not sure DFB has this gene. He certainly doesn’t have JBs insane ability to calculate odds, on the spot, for virtually every situation that can come up.
 

TheCusian

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I don't think that the number of teams running an offense is a great way to evaluate it. Air raid was great for thirty years and it's still uncommon
Me neither? That’s not what I said.

I said it was a simple system that seemed to get figured out as the concepts got integrated into modern CFB offenses. There are things that work and we still do some of them and so do a lot of other schools. It’s just not the novel “David with a sling takes on the giant” kind of offense.
 

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