OT: Possible unionization | Syracusefan.com

OT: Possible unionization

texascpa

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I am not a union guy, never have been, but I agree somewhat that the current "amatuer" environment in sports is out-dated. However, there are some caveats to taking a union direction: 1) no one is forcing these guys to play football so why should taxpayers or the student body pay them to play without their own voice, 2) how will the impact in additional costs (assuming that a pay system is put in place) impact the taxpayer or student body, 3) it sets up another public collective group funded by the taxpayer, 4) this will lead up to pension, medical and other liabilities that will eventually become unfunded and catastrophic to universities (see the multitude of cities that are currently crushed by pension/retiree medical debt) and 4) how many union bosses are going to get rich off this scheme?
 

NKR1978

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how many union bosses are going to get rich off this scheme?

Not nearly as many "union bosses" will get rich as college administrators, conference administrators, network executives, coaches, sportswriters and apparel manufacturers among countless others have off of the backs of college football and basketball players. College sports have been a scheme for years, but it seems ok as long as the "right" people get rich off of it.

Why would taxpayers have anything to do with this?
 

texascpa

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Not nearly as many "union bosses" will get rich as college administrators, conference administrators, network executives, coaches, sportswriters and apparel manufacturers among countless others have off of the backs of college football and basketball players. College sports have been a scheme for years, but it seems ok as long as the "right" people get rich off of it.

Why would taxpayers have anything to do with this?

Swapping one group of "right" people for another isn't a solution.

Taxpayers fund public institutions, including universities.
 

Alsacs

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If the NLRB certifies this college athletics will be destroyed. Their is no way you could call the players student-athletes anymore. If they are employees then the NCAA rulebook will be pointless. College athletics won't be amateurs and they could endorse products and make money in a lot of ways other than the University paying them. The B1G would go Division 3 remember Jim Delany saying that if the Universities had to pay their players salaries.

Honestly, I can't see the NLRB certifying them as a union, but I don't know how many Republican appointments and Democratic appointments are on that board anymore.
 

NKR1978

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Swapping one group of "right" people for another isn't a solution.

Taxpayers fund public institutions, including universities.

Meh - I'd rather these kids get as much money as possible off of their fleeting fame than the vast majority of people who make off of them in perpetuity.

Lots of "State U" institutions would be affected by this.

Good. Or theoretically the athletic departments at major state universities could set themselves up as private corporations.

A couple years ago there was talk of an athlete led protest at the Final Four. I think it was either 2011 or 2012. Honestly would have loved it if all four teams told the NCAA to go f*** itself by refusing to play. Would have sucked for fans, but at some point the NCAA is going to have to serve the athletes it claims it does. And in a capitalist society, people should be allowed to make money off of their likeness and notoriety.
 

Alsacs

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You say this as if it's a bad thing.

;)
I didn't say it was a good or bad thing. I was just saying college athletics will be destroyed in the present tense. Their would have to be a CBA between college players and the universities. Their would be just change in that union as athletes only have 4 years of eligibility. I just can't see this union being given certification from the NLRB. I wonder whom the NCAA has on the payroll that resides on K Street because if the NCAA lobbyists don't get the NLRB to decline certification I can't wait to see what happens in all the chaos. I think for the record players should be able to capitalize on their brands while in college, but opening that can is how regulate it.
 

texascpa

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Meh - I'd rather these kids get as much money as possible off of their fleeting fame than the vast majority of people who make off of them in perpetuity.



Good. Or theoretically the athletic departments at major state universities could set themselves up as private corporations.

A couple years ago there was talk of an athlete led protest at the Final Four. I think it was either 2011 or 2012. Honestly would have loved it if all four teams told the NCAA to go f*** itself by refusing to play. Would have sucked for fans, but at some point the NCAA is going to have to serve the athletes it claims it does. And in a capitalist society, people should be allowed to make money off of their likeness and notoriety.

I'm not arguing against the former, I just don't like the idea of the union bosses profiting off of this. Again, I think the argument of "amateur" athlete is outdated. Non-athletes on scholarships can get jobs, including marketing their name, receive stipends, etc, but for some reason athletes can't. It's stupid.

And, purely a guess, but my guess is that most state's have rules against the latter. Politicians, in general, hate privatizing government agencies.
 

retro44

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5 years to be vested in state pension plans......redshirt years go by-by
 

upperdeck

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Not nearly as many "union bosses" will get rich as college administrators, conference administrators, network executives, coaches, sportswriters and apparel manufacturers among countless others have off of the backs of college football and basketball players. College sports have been a scheme for years, but it seems ok as long as the "right" people get rich off of it.

Why would taxpayers have anything to do with this?
how many coaches are getting rich? after you take out the coordinators and head coaches you dont have to go far down the list to find guys making avg wages.
 

OttoMets

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Last I checked, participants in a recreational hobby can't organize.

Unlikely that the NLRB certifies this bunch.
 

NKR1978

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how many coaches are getting rich? after you take out the coordinators and head coaches you dont have to go far down the list to find guys making avg wages.

Fair point.

The certification will never happen. It shouldn't happen. I don't see how they could be considered employees, but I have no idea what the legal definition would be for union certification, so who knows.

I respect what the Northwestern players are doing though. They are going to take a lot of heat from the media and from the public at large. There aren't any real consequences if they fail so I'm not going to call them "brave," but I hope they see this through. It's fun to watch organizations as corrupt as the NCAA buckle a little bit.
 

Chip

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Burying the bodies of union bosses under the end zone will seem so obvious, that it just might work.
 

Crusty

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I am all for whatever it takes for the players to be properly represented by someone with only their interests at heart. The NCAA was formed pressure from under Teddy Roosevelt with its only purpose to protect the athletes. It is not a grotesque caricature of its original self and it need to go away.

Players currently engage in interstate commerce and have contracts with considerations for both sides. Don't see how they would not be certified.

There is simply too much candy on the table and the universities have overreached. The game may now be on. I know which side I am on.
 

Alsacs

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I am all for whatever it takes for the players to be properly represented by someone with only their interests at heart. The NCAA was formed pressure from under Teddy Roosevelt with its only purpose to protect the athletes. It is not a grotesque caricature of its original self and it need to go away.

Players currently engage in interstate commerce and have contracts with considerations for both sides. Don't see how they would not be certified.

There is simply too much candy on the table and the universities have overreached. The game may now be on. I know which side I am on.
Please for the love of god and the boring dreadful 2 semesters of Constitutional law I and II do not bring up the Commerce Clause. Please, I hated reading those long cases.
If the players are certified then college athletics is nothing more than professional athletics not at the highest level. I don't care if the athletes get some compensation for their efforts, but allowing them to unionize destroys collegiate athletics as we know them. Some may say that is great and others may say its terrible. How far does this go? Do we allow collegiate FA after 2 years, and allow the kids to leave schools and get more money where its on the table. If they negotiate a CBA it will have to renegotiated by different athletes each time as the collegiate players only have 4 years of eligibility and no players would be involved in multiple CBA talks. This stuff is absurd. Give the players a stipend, and the ability to make money off autographs/likeness and be happy to keep the rest.
 

retro44

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I take it none of the Northwestern athletes are in the business school
 

timkay99

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Last I checked, participants in a recreational hobby can't organize.

Unlikely that the NLRB certifies this bunch.

Not many recreational hobbies reel in 5 billion dollars a year...

This case isn't as cut and dry as people may think.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...cats-football-players-trying-join-labor-union

"They haven't been since 1953, when the Colorado Supreme Court upheld a determination by the state Industrial Commission that a football player at the University of Denver was an "employee" within the context of the Colorado workers' compensation statute.

As a result, the university was responsible to provide workers' compensation for his football injuries. The NCAA responded by coining the term "student-athlete" and mandating its use by universities. Use of that term, and other efforts to enforce the idea that athletes cannot also be employees, ramped up as the NCAA a few years later introduced athletic scholarships, a form of compensation for services provided."

"Graduate students who teach, for instance, are recognized as employees of universities under laws in many states. Academics such as Richard and Amy McCormick of Michigan State have argued that athletes are employees under the common law definition of the National Labor Relations Act."

If this goes to court, it will be extremely messy. And I think the NCAA would lose barring something huge to prevent it from getting to court.
 

Crusty

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Please for the love of god and the boring dreadful 2 semesters of Constitutional law I and II do not bring up the Commerce Clause. Please, I hated reading those long cases.
If the players are certified then college athletics is nothing more than professional athletics not at the highest level. I don't care if the athletes get some compensation for their efforts, but allowing them to unionize destroys collegiate athletics as we know them. Some may say that is great and others may say its terrible. How far does this go? Do we allow collegiate FA after 2 years, and allow the kids to leave schools and get more money where its on the table. If they negotiate a CBA it will have to renegotiated by different athletes each time as the collegiate players only have 4 years of eligibility and no players would be involved in multiple CBA talks. This stuff is absurd. Give the players a stipend, and the ability to make money off autographs/likeness and be happy to keep the rest.

Big time college athletes are nothing more than professionals. Big time college sports hasn't been amateur for many years now and the money is finally going to be its ultimate undoing (wow, a Batman reference!). It will destroy college athletics? The amateur model was destroyed a long time ago.

This situation reminds me of the way tennis and then track and field used to be when "amateur" athletes made a ton of money under the table. Everyone looked the other way and the situation just got worse until it finally exploded.

It is not hard to see how this might develop into a reasonable model. Any union would be constrained by Title IX limitations. It would create a different paradigm, which is sorely needed.

Of course there would have to be a CBA, probably with the P5. The other conferences would probably not be involved since the money just isn't there. There are many issues and all ot ehm cost money. So what, coaches are getting $20-$30 mullion contracts and I would rather see some of that money going to the players. A union would probably demand a fair share of the proceeds in benefits and to get it they would have to agree to a great many things including eligibility, transfer rights etc.

Representation will not be an issue as some of these smart athletes majoring in sports law and related majors will make a career out of being the union officials and each year classes of player reps will be elected. No biggie - this isn't rocket science.

The only way these kids are going to get a fair shake is with a union. I don't like unions but I realize that they are the only thing that levels the playing field and are many times a necessary evil.
 

FAL

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Please for the love of god and the boring dreadful 2 semesters of Constitutional law I and II do not bring up the Commerce Clause. Please, I hated reading those long cases.
If the players are certified then college athletics is nothing more than professional athletics not at the highest level. I don't care if the athletes get some compensation for their efforts, but allowing them to unionize destroys collegiate athletics as we know them. Some may say that is great and others may say its terrible. How far does this go? Do we allow collegiate FA after 2 years, and allow the kids to leave schools and get more money where its on the table. If they negotiate a CBA it will have to renegotiated by different athletes each time as the collegiate players only have 4 years of eligibility and no players would be involved in multiple CBA talks. This stuff is absurd. Give the players a stipend, and the ability to make money off autographs/likeness and be happy to keep the rest.


Not always in agreement with Alsacs, but this time he is dead on.
 

Alsacs

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The Supreme Court is still 4 Conservative Judges(Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Scalia) and 4 Liberal Judges(Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Breyer, Kagan), and 1 swing justice Kennedy. I could see this case going all the way to US Supreme Court and whatever way Kennedy wants it go will be decided.
 

Alsacs

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Big time college athletes are nothing more than professionals. Big time college sports hasn't been amateur for many years now and the money is finally going to be its ultimate undoing (wow, a Batman reference!). It will destroy college athletics? The amateur model was destroyed a long time ago.

This situation reminds me of the way tennis and then track and field used to be when "amateur" athletes made a ton of money under the table. Everyone looked the other way and the situation just got worse until it finally exploded.

It is not hard to see how this might develop into a reasonable model. Any union would be constrained by Title IX limitations. It would create a different paradigm, which is sorely needed.

Of course there would have to be a CBA, probably with the P5. The other conferences would probably not be involved since the money just isn't there. There are many issues and all ot ehm cost money. So what, coaches are getting $20-$30 mullion contracts and I would rather see some of that money going to the players. A union would probably demand a fair share of the proceeds in benefits and to get it they would have to agree to a great many things including eligibility, transfer rights etc.

Representation will not be an issue as some of these smart athletes majoring in sports law and related majors will make a career out of being the union officials and each year classes of player reps will be elected. No biggie - this isn't rocket science.

The only way these kids are going to get a fair shake is with a union. I don't like unions but I realize that they are the only thing that levels the playing field and are many times a necessary evil.
I guess we need a HS draft then. With the first pick in the HS Football draft the Syracuse Orange select Thomas Holley, Bronx, NY.

They don't need a union they need the schools to give them spending money.
 

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