Outlier 2020

wolfhound

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I have been listening to all the pundits reading the forums on the state of Syracuse football
So I would like an honest answer for this question.
What football team that Syracuse ever fielded could withstand the number of injuries, opt. outs
and the number of players who are currently playing with injuries
full games who desperately need to be be subbed out on a regular basis. Case in point is Servais.
Only a blind man could not see he has been playing almost the full season injured.
I don’t know is it’s his knee or back or combination of both but he is bravely physically struggling out there this year. He has to play because there is no one to replace him due to the pre-season injuries that
Destroyed any depth at that position. Personally I thing the switch to the right side for him was to help with where his injuries are and give him a better chance to get out of his stance and to have better Leverage to withstand a bull rush.

Freshmen all over the starting lineup our underclassmen have never been successful tackling junior and senior running backs in all the years watching SU football. Yes an outlier here and there possibly but in the 2% over 50 years of SU football.
Freshman running backs can run the football, some are strong enough to get yards after the first contact.
But they miss blocking assignments consistently, wrong reads for holes that open up. Compound that with no spring football limited summer camp, upper class men can rely on game experience and drill muscle and repetitive memory freshman cannot.
I have watched SU football since the end of Ben’s days, underclassmen as linebackers rush to wrong spots, over pursue, get driven back on contact with running backs.
underclass men as db’s are poor at tackling, physically get overwhelmed by opposing running backs, Tight ends and big receivers. Safeties who are asked to run support are not physically ready for this task
Wrong reads, missed tackles are the norm. Against Liberty in the first half all 3 starting safeties were out with injuries, not just Liberty but the Greg Robinson versus Akron with upper class men at the offensive line and running back would have run all over this team too.
In fact I am in amazement that the pass protection has been as good as it has been and shows we have talent back there.
Young wide receivers and first year starters have hardly ever gotten off the line when press coverage is used against us, wrong routes are common place.
I don’t know of any SU team even our best rest could have survived the offensive line attrition of this year.
We have Never been a school that got offensive linemen that other good schools got and that includes Mac, and Paul. We schemed many of our offensive teams because of this (see our option years).
I have seen on twitter past players showing displeasures about Liberty, I wonder how they would have done as underclassmen. Julian Whigam could not tackle at all until his senior year, because he did not have the strength built up.
Sorry for the rant! But this is an outlier year if ever there was and none of our coaches past or future could coach there way out of this., and believe me my glasses are clear on this not orange!

Well I think this is my third post in all the years of lurking back to the old message boards
I guess it time to head back to lurking, hope I did not offend anyone as passions for SU can fun both ways on the board.
Got to run the dog to the hospital so I don’t have time to proof this so Sorry In advance for any run ons, grammar or misspelled words.
 

Cuse12

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Valid points in your post for sure. I think we all should agree that this years roster with the opt outs and injuries absolutely depleted any hope. But, that’s also the issue. This is the same song and dance again. The only year we did not truly have these depth issues is when we won 10 games in 2018. This is an issue year in and year out. Now this is a trend. Overall in the ACC an average team can fill starting spots with players that are survivable enough to beat Liberty. That’s the issue. I completely agree that our backs are indeed against the wall with our roster depletion, but we need to have quality depth and we just do not. It’s concerning.
 

Killdozer

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I have been listening to all the pundits reading the forums on the state of Syracuse football
So I would like an honest answer for this question.
What football team that Syracuse ever fielded could withstand the number of injuries, opt. outs
and the number of players who are currently playing with injuries
full games who desperately need to be be subbed out on a regular basis. Case in point is Servais.
Only a blind man could not see he has been playing almost the full season injured.
I don’t know is it’s his knee or back or combination of both but he is bravely physically struggling out there this year. He has to play because there is no one to replace him due to the pre-season injuries that
Destroyed any depth at that position. Personally I thing the switch to the right side for him was to help with where his injuries are and give him a better chance to get out of his stance and to have better Leverage to withstand a bull rush.

Freshmen all over the starting lineup our underclassmen have never been successful tackling junior and senior running backs in all the years watching SU football. Yes an outlier here and there possibly but in the 2% over 50 years of SU football.
Freshman running backs can run the football, some are strong enough to get yards after the first contact.
But they miss blocking assignments consistently, wrong reads for holes that open up. Compound that with no spring football limited summer camp, upper class men can rely on game experience and drill muscle and repetitive memory freshman cannot.
I have watched SU football since the end of Ben’s days, underclassmen as linebackers rush to wrong spots, over pursue, get driven back on contact with running backs.
underclass men as db’s are poor at tackling, physically get overwhelmed by opposing running backs, Tight ends and big receivers. Safeties who are asked to run support are not physically ready for this task
Wrong reads, missed tackles are the norm. Against Liberty in the first half all 3 starting safeties were out with injuries, not just Liberty but the Greg Robinson versus Akron with upper class men at the offensive line and running back would have run all over this team too.
In fact I am in amazement that the pass protection has been as good as it has been and shows we have talent back there.
Young wide receivers and first year starters have hardly ever gotten off the line when press coverage is used against us, wrong routes are common place.
I don’t know of any SU team even our best rest could have survived the offensive line attrition of this year.
We have Never been a school that got offensive linemen that other good schools got and that includes Mac, and Paul. We schemed many of our offensive teams because of this (see our option years).
I have seen on twitter past players showing displeasures about Liberty, I wonder how they would have done as underclassmen. Julian Whigam could not tackle at all until his senior year, because he did not have the strength built up.
Sorry for the rant! But this is an outlier year if ever there was and none of our coaches past or future could coach there way out of this., and believe me my glasses are clear on this not orange!

Well I think this is my third post in all the years of lurking back to the old message boards
I guess it time to head back to lurking, hope I did not offend anyone as passions for SU can fun both ways on the board.
Got to run the dog to the hospital so I don’t have time to proof this so Sorry In advance for any run ons, grammar or misspelled words.
You pointed out a few issues that many other teams are facing this year (Opt-Outs and Injuries). The rest of the issues fall directly on this ENTIRE coaching staff. Whether it is scheme, play calling, recruiting, S&C, game management it has been a total disaster. I think a lot of other coaching staffs can do A LOT better with the same players. That is my opinion as I look at the entire 5 years that Dino has been here. I don't look at it through "orange" color glasses but look at what he has produced and what was the effect each of those seasons had on the improvement of the overall team. At this point, any other college football fan would look at the state of SU football and wonder why this staff is still in place. I hope Dino can turn this around next year and at the very least make a bowl game. If not, then Dino has proven that he is more of a coach that will only succeed in the first few years of his tenure. That is all he has proven so far with his only other head coaching jobs.
 

orangecuse

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The games are being played and they count. People can dismiss this debacle as they choose, seem fit, etc. as rationalization is much more comforting than taking a good hard look in the mirror at times. However, it doesn't change the fact that people are watching, the media is covering it, etcetera...and perception is reality.

It would be really interesting in these parts if the Orange were 4-1 heading into this game in regards to how this season doesn't matter. Wonderful thing about one's own thinking, they're the sole owner of that property.
 

3rdRecon

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Good Post! I have also been a supporter since the pre-dome days, I think there are a lot of long time fans who are looking for light at the end of the tunnel. So, some of the questions that arise are Why are we even in a position at this juncture to have to play so many freshman. Why is there not a sophomore or junior quarterback ready to fill in for Tommy. The root of all evils lies in recruiting. I think everyone expected a stronger recruiting bump post the bowl win. With a number of football program investments there was an expectation of return in the form of better ACC level recruiting. I strongly agree with the poster in another thread that a good portion of the 25 million donation should be used to fortify our recruiting organizational structure and staffing. I think we can all handle a losing season, especially in a year like this one, but it would be much easier to swallow if what was on the horizon - behind the current starting roster -was very promising. All said and done this Staff needs to prove it can recruit at an acceptable level to compete in the ACC.
 

Trueblue25

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Im starting to come around.

other teams are not dealing with similar injury situations. Perhaps we review our conditioning, nutrition and rehab program but this has been an anomaly of injuries.

no team would succeed in the p5 with this list of owwies. I still think 2021’s make or break from Babers though, whether its “fair” or not.
 

GoSU96

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The games are being played and they count. People can dismiss this debacle as they choose, seem fit, etc. as rationalization is much more comforting than taking a good hard look in the mirror at times. However, it doesn't change the fact that people are watching, the media is covering it, etcetera...and perception is reality.

It would be really interesting in these parts if the Orange were 4-1 heading into this game in regards to how this season doesn't matter. Wonderful thing about one's own thinking, they're the sole owner of that property.

I've been of the opinion that this year was 11 scrimmages before the season started.

Reality is reality, and the reality is that what SU is putting out there is an active roster the same size as an NFL one full of 1st and 2nd year players.

There's very, very, very, few programs that could do that and still be functional.
 

SyraGus

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2020 goes down in my book as the year of the perfect storm with respect to SU football.

The 2 new coordinators and lost practice time were a double whammy. I wonder if the old adage about a team's biggest improvement coming between games 1 and 2 can be extrapolated to predict that a team's biggest improvement with new coordinators will come in season 2 (especially if key players heal and we experience a "normal" spring).
 

orangecuse

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I've been of the opinion that this year was 11 scrimmages before the season started.

Reality is reality, and the reality is that what SU is putting out there is an active roster the same size as an NFL one full of 1st and 2nd year players.

There's very, very, very, few programs that could do that and still be functional.

As I mentioned, and your reply confirms unequivocally, you and only you are the owner of your own thinking and the property in which it belongs to. There isn't any true dispute of that reality.
 
Last edited:

DomeStranger

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Every game we've had more guys on the turf then the opponent. I think a lot of the reasons stem from them being over matched. The defense has been on the field way too much, and getting run over every time. Whether its being outsized, outconditioned, or outplayed to the point where the defense never gets a rest, it all falls back on coaching, or lack thereof.
 

anomander

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I have been listening to all the pundits reading the forums on the state of Syracuse football
So I would like an honest answer for this question.
What football team that Syracuse ever fielded could withstand the number of injuries, opt. outs
and the number of players who are currently playing with injuries
full games who desperately need to be be subbed out on a regular basis. Case in point is Servais.
Only a blind man could not see he has been playing almost the full season injured.
I don’t know is it’s his knee or back or combination of both but he is bravely physically struggling out there this year. He has to play because there is no one to replace him due to the pre-season injuries that
Destroyed any depth at that position. Personally I thing the switch to the right side for him was to help with where his injuries are and give him a better chance to get out of his stance and to have better Leverage to withstand a bull rush.

Freshmen all over the starting lineup our underclassmen have never been successful tackling junior and senior running backs in all the years watching SU football. Yes an outlier here and there possibly but in the 2% over 50 years of SU football.
Freshman running backs can run the football, some are strong enough to get yards after the first contact.
But they miss blocking assignments consistently, wrong reads for holes that open up. Compound that with no spring football limited summer camp, upper class men can rely on game experience and drill muscle and repetitive memory freshman cannot.
I have watched SU football since the end of Ben’s days, underclassmen as linebackers rush to wrong spots, over pursue, get driven back on contact with running backs.
underclass men as db’s are poor at tackling, physically get overwhelmed by opposing running backs, Tight ends and big receivers. Safeties who are asked to run support are not physically ready for this task
Wrong reads, missed tackles are the norm. Against Liberty in the first half all 3 starting safeties were out with injuries, not just Liberty but the Greg Robinson versus Akron with upper class men at the offensive line and running back would have run all over this team too.
In fact I am in amazement that the pass protection has been as good as it has been and shows we have talent back there.
Young wide receivers and first year starters have hardly ever gotten off the line when press coverage is used against us, wrong routes are common place.
I don’t know of any SU team even our best rest could have survived the offensive line attrition of this year.
We have Never been a school that got offensive linemen that other good schools got and that includes Mac, and Paul. We schemed many of our offensive teams because of this (see our option years).
I have seen on twitter past players showing displeasures about Liberty, I wonder how they would have done as underclassmen. Julian Whigam could not tackle at all until his senior year, because he did not have the strength built up.
Sorry for the rant! But this is an outlier year if ever there was and none of our coaches past or future could coach there way out of this., and believe me my glasses are clear on this not orange!

Well I think this is my third post in all the years of lurking back to the old message boards
I guess it time to head back to lurking, hope I did not offend anyone as passions for SU can fun both ways on the board.
Got to run the dog to the hospital so I don’t have time to proof this so Sorry In advance for any run ons, grammar or misspelled words.

What do you mean we are injured like this every year?
 

wolfhound

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Sorry have been gone all day with the pooch, so I have not had time to read the responses to my post.

I have a question for all the poor depth and poor coaching posters who are calling out the staff.

Name another ACC school who loses comparable to what SU lost due to injuries and opt. outs and how many of them could actually also lose to Liberty.

Lose your 3 Starting Safeties (or equivalent depending on the defense) your 2 top running backs, your best blocker for the running game ( Dakota Davis), your quarterback, another starting guard and the best guard backup, the rest of your O-line depth, your best situational blocking back because he Has to play guard, now add in the current players who are playing injured. The freshman linebackers are getting beat up ie: Thompson, Linton.
The young DB's and Safeties are I am sure in the same position trying to tackle players 30 & 40 lbs heavier.
You think the rest of the league would not suffer like we are now?

Go through the rest of the ACC rosters how many would have been in the same boat as SU.
Pretty much everyone except Clemson. So yes everyone is in the same boat due to Covid, it is our injuries
compared to the rest of the ACC teams.
We saw Fla. St. on the ropes with Jacksonville st. If they had the injuries we had I have no doubt they would have lost.
If North Carolina loses their young QB they are in big trouble, Their 2 backs opt out what happens there?
and that is only 3 players not near the number we have lost.

What we do not have as far as players suiting up is staggering for ANY program except for the very very few
I am not saying 2020 does not matter it is still a season that counts.
However, if we lost the same number of players next year or another ACC team has this kind of bad luck the results would be similar, with the only outlier is they would (hopefully) have more practice time.
There is good news, the depth of the team especially if we get the majority of the upper class men to return will be the best we have had in a very long time due to the younger guys being thrown into the fire.
 

wolfhound

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What do you mean we are injured like this every year?
Sorry if that read that way it was written in a hurry with no chance to do a proof read
(Nor was my second post from my phone)
I was saying what Syracuse team over the past several decades could withstand the loss of players this team has had this year. Example our 2nd previous 10-3 team ( prior to 2018) I believe was the 2003 team could lose it’s most important player (Freeney). Then add in 14 players similar in the depth chart to this year’s that get lost to injury or opt out on that team how do you think that team would end up? Pick any year and have the same losses off our roster and that team is in trouble.
Hopefully that is a little more clear..
 

syrBossHogg

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Im starting to come around.

other teams are not dealing with similar injury situations. Perhaps we review our conditioning, nutrition and rehab program but this has been an anomaly of injuries.

no team would succeed in the p5 with this list of owwies. I still think 2021’s make or break from Babers though, whether its “fair” or not.

I think I saw somewhere Dino mentioned that he was going to do things differently in training camp next year to insure that the team is healthier going into the season. I would also hope/expect the he'll hit the transfer portal and bring in a few guys that can help immediately next year. I think those are realistic asks of Dino going into next year. Asking him to fire the OC/DC or for other drastic changes are completely unrealistic.

Learn from this year and go into next year with a healthier and stronger roster.
 

anomander

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Sorry if that read that way it was written in a hurry with no chance to do a proof read
(Nor was my second post from my phone)
I was saying what Syracuse team over the past several decades could withstand the loss of players this team has had this year. Example our 2nd previous 10-3 team ( prior to 2018) I believe was the 2003 team could lose it’s most important player (Freeney). Then add in 14 players similar in the depth chart to this year’s that get lost to injury or opt out on that team how do you think that team would end up? Pick any year and have the same losses off our roster and that team is in trouble.
Hopefully that is a little more clear..

ya but what I am saying is we experience injuries close to this level almost every single year bedsides 2017. This is an annual thing saying how we were derailed by injuries. Of course no team would be able to deal with this amount of injuries . That’s a given, but we see this story year after year. Part of it is the nature of the game. Part of it is luck, but we must be the unluckiest program I history because this isn’t just an outlier.
 

HRE Otto IV

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ya but what I am saying is we experience injuries close to this level almost every single year bedsides 2017. This is an annual thing saying how we were derailed by injuries. Of course no team would be able to deal with this amount of injuries . That’s a given, but we see this story year after year. Part of it is the nature of the game. Part of it is luck, but we must be the unluckiest program I history because this isn’t just an outlier.

VA Tech was missing half their team for two games due to Covid. Our injuries should be the difference between winning and losing, but they shouldn't excuse looking inept on O, and lacking overall fundamentals and discipline.
 

anomander

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VA Tech was missing half their team for two games due to Covid. Our injuries should be the difference between winning and losing, but they shouldn't excuse looking inept on O, and lacking overall fundamentals and discipline.
Agree. Whatever injury issues we have we shouldn’t be getting blown out by Liberty at home in Babers year 5
 

TheCusian

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If not, then Dino has proven that he is more of a coach that will only succeed in the first few years of his tenure. That is all he has proven so far with his only other head coaching jobs.

The only let down year here has been 2019. Unless you're sporting glasses made in the expectations of the 80's/90's.
 

TheCusian

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VA Tech was missing half their team for two games due to Covid. Our injuries should be the difference between winning and losing, but they shouldn't excuse looking inept on O, and lacking overall fundamentals and discipline.

If we had VaTech's recruiting and OC/DC stability heading into this year, we'd be ok too.
 

Orijinal

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ya but what I am saying is we experience injuries close to this level almost every single year bedsides 2017. This is an annual thing saying how we were derailed by injuries. Of course no team would be able to deal with this amount of injuries . That’s a given, but we see this story year after year. Part of it is the nature of the game. Part of it is luck, but we must be the unluckiest program I history because this isn’t just an outlier.
This is actually pretty much true, except for the fact that this year there is an exceptional amount of injuries.

We have lost our starting QB every year, for at least a game or 2, for the past how many years? It's crazy. There were years we were playing third and 4th string QB's, and we might get there again this year. It's incredible. This isn't just a Babers administration issue either. Shafer teams, same thing

O Line was struggling due to injury most of the year last year, and then onlinemen get hurt walking to class this year. Crazy.

I don't know how many years out of the past 15, our most talented/significant player on the roster missed large portions of the season, if not the whole season. Something is in the air...
 

Killdozer

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The only let down year here has been 2019. Unless you're sporting glasses made in the expectations of the 80's/90's.
He has a losing record 4 out of the 5 years. Maybe you are good with that but he was hired to win and make bowl games. I guess you are ok with 4 win seasons.
 

TheCusian

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He has a losing record 4 out of the 5 years. Maybe you are good with that but he was hired to win and make bowl games. I guess you are ok with 4 win seasons.

Ha! No. Wins are important. But it's a weird way to quantify quality if you're really trying to figure out if a coach is any good. (This is obvious - going undefeated at Alabama is better than going undefeated at Bowling Green for example).

Here's a quick and dirty way to see a) how good the team is (SRS, simple rating system) and b) how tough of a schedule they played against (SoS). Info here

These are the best 10 teams in the last 20 years:

SRSYear/HCW-LSoS
113.542001/Pasqualoni10-36.23
212.142018/Babers10-31.30
36.942000/Pasqualoni6-53.12
46.272012/Marrone8-50.81
54.112003/Pasqualoni6-60.95
62.812013/Shafer7-62.88
71.962017/Babers4-85.80
81.302010/Marrone8-5-2.16
9-0.72004/Pasqualoni6-61.76
10-1.512015/Shafer4-83.91

What does this say? Coach P was a very good coach. Babers and Marrone are basically tied, Shafer is a bit underrated due to playing crazy schedules. Dino fielded the 2nd best team of the last 20 years. Dino's 2017 season is underrated.

There's some other interesting things from that page. I'll post more when I get a second.
 

TheCusian

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Alright. Let's look at SoS.

CoachAverage Schedule StrengthWin %
Dino Babers2.763.444
Scott Shafer3.263.378
Doug Marrone0.545.500
Greg Robinson3.6675.213
Paul Pasqualoni1.846.644

Our widely considered worst coaches (Shafer and Gerg) have the worst winning % but also had the toughest schedules.

Our widely considered best coaches (Marrone and P) each played against the easiest schedules. P's winning % against a tougher schedule than Marrone is more impressive.

Babers sits right about in the middle?
 

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