people are too down on TD

upperdeck

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I think very few on here really understand the offense. I dont many here every played QB and most in here are old enough that none of this style of offense even existed back in our day.. Sure he made some bad plays/throws. But as Dino says lost of things have to go right for a play to work. if the first read is Wide and its covered and the 2nd read is inside and that guy runs the wrong route the QB ends up looking pretty lost.

We as a group also fail to understand the reads are in a pre-determined order based on the play and the D and the down/distance.. Its not as simple hey that guy is more open throw it to him . Maybe the offense has a play and the D is in man look. That tells the first look to be the X running a slant, but the D was hiding some coverage so that look is not good post snap. So they he comes off it to the check down but they cover that too or he runs the wrong route and now he wants his 3rd read but the oline has missed something and the play has broken down.

we have issues in lots of places. there were 3-4 throws made where WRs ran to the wrong spot, we had several bad throws, we had 3-4 drops, we had 3-4-5 bad protections.. We had 2-3 good protections where the RBs missed blocks. And I am sure we had multiple bad reads by the QB..
 

HRE Otto IV

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The purpose of this system is to simplify things. If the QB doesn’t know where to go with the ball pre snap then we are already at a loss. The fact that we see constant coverage issues means either TD doesn’t get it or the coaches are doing a really poor job of getting the players to understand. Either way it is not good.
 

ImperialOrange

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TD can't make enough plays with his legs to make up for missed receivers like ED did. That said, looks like TD is way too amped out there and can potentially calm down and get the same loft on deep throws we saw his freshman year.

Saturday was frustrating and the score ended up ugly but we were a handful of plays from winning that game. If the refs didn't call back the punt return for a "blindside" block to the front and we got the lead think the nerves settle and we roll.
 

upperdeck

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unc has a stud QB who threw INTs. Ours didnt.. One big difference was that UNC oline did a better job of letting the 2-3 read get thrown too.

pre-snap isnt always about where to throw its about where to look. What i wish we were better at and one thing ED did at times was take what the D gives you and not always throw to where the play is designed. It hurt us too but also led to moving the ball and accepting that 4-5 yds passes are a good thing.

There was one clear example Sat where the slot was uncovered on 3rd down but we threw else where. I think sometimes we have to just take the first down when as a team we struggle to move the chains.. And others have said the same thing, maybe less of where we are supposed to go and more on just making positive plays.

But if teams like Clemson are gonna man you all over, and you cant get open there is no pre-post snap reads, you need to trust someone can win a man-o-man battle. And they want to take the 4 on then you have 6-7 in the box and thats hard to run against too.

lets see where we are after the GT game.
 

AngryOtto

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I do not think people are over reacting. This was not TD first game. He has started 16 games. The concern is that the mental part of the game does not appear to be improving like it should at this point. Everyone points to Dungeys ability to run however even though he did not throw the deep ball as TD he was good at finding multiple receivers through his progressions.
 

AngryOtto

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The team looked better with CW in the game last year, and he didn't get much of a chance really at all.
I absolutely agree. If there is not significant improvement this week I feel markowitz or summers need to be give a couple of series in the games.
 

qdawgg

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It wasn’t his first game, not his first spring practice, not his first time in the system.

Over the years we’ve played against opponents backups that have come in and been more scary looking. He’s just an okay QB.

People have been obsessed with his arm strength for 3 years. Completely shows how little people understand about the position. Which is how you started this thread?
 

upperdeck

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yup.. I am surprised that we went away from the throws that makes well, but if you cant move the ball you end up doing things you dont want in hopes something is a quick fix. We threw make 2-3 WR screens. If we hit just 2 of the deep throws things look much better and then were there for the taking.

As Dino said too.. They have not worked much together for almost a yr. The Pods dont include everyone, timing will get better, it has too

and the UNC kid was only a little better, but he had more, time, more space, and better WRs to throw too.

WRs drop 1 not 4, dont miss the TD catch and complete 1 of 4 deep ball suddenly we score 20-30 pts and dont feel so bad, is that too much to improve in 1 week ?

Best thing was we did have guys running open deep multiple times, worst thing is might be 10 games of that..
 

Syrabills44

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Agreed 1000%. I don’t think he was great by any means, but certainly serviceable. When 30% of ur throws are low percentage shots down the field into double coverage, w receivers who have apparently forgot how to catch the ball, and pass protection that was basically nonexistent, then odds are you’re gonna have a pretty rough day
As someone who played/coaches QBs, I can’t tell you how important it is for one to get comfortable. I think we have to give him some really simple reads/throws early on. This will:
-obviously raise his confidence level, which is so important during the game for a QB
-gets him in a rhythm, also super important
-gets other skill players involved in game, gets them comfortable
-makes up for lackluster protection
-decreases the odds for a 3 and out, let’s the defense rest longer
-and most importantly, saves the shot plays for LATER on in the game. By doing this you’ve got guys who are hopefully now in some sort of rhythm, and you’ve got the defense worried about the short game. Once the safeties come creeping up, it’ll be there every time. Coaches need to help him out
 

djorange1989

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The team looked better with CW in the game last year, and he didn't get much of a chance really at all.
the team seemed to be more fired up with CW in the game. I wonder how much confidence they have in TD
 

NineOneSeven

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Dungey had a problem with not firing the ball to the wideouts early enough. That was a real thing, amongst the many positive things. The thought was Tommy was better suited for this offense because he made quick throws and rifled them in there. We saw some of it during limited time early on.

We have not been close to that, let alone better. The o-line is an issue, fact. There is hesitation going on that is not always the fault of the line though. Certainly the QB and the wideouts are also to blame (not reacting quickly enough, wideouts not helping out by getting open/dropping passes/running wrong routes). It's most certainly a combination of all 3 but it's a big problem that needs to be fixed.
 

HRE Otto IV

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yup.. I am surprised that we went away from the throws that makes well, but if you cant move the ball you end up doing things you dont want in hopes something is a quick fix. We threw make 2-3 WR screens. If we hit just 2 of the deep throws things look much better and then were there for the taking.

As Dino said too.. They have not worked much together for almost a yr. The Pods dont include everyone, timing will get better, it has too
If the timing is off that should be causing incompletions not non throws.

This is a big play O but when the big play is not there you need to be able to pick up yardage. It is hard to have a big play when you haven't had a big play WR since 2017. That alone should make the QB look for the big play less. It seems like that is all TD looks for. It is crazy that our slot WRs have had 138-89-105 receptions the first three years and have been invisible the last 13 games (57 total).
 

NineOneSeven

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Agreed 1000%. I don’t think he was great by any means, but certainly serviceable. When 30% of ur throws are low percentage shots down the field into double coverage, w receivers who have apparently forgot how to catch the ball, and pass protection that was basically nonexistent, then odds are you’re gonna have a pretty rough day
As someone who played/coaches QBs, I can’t tell you how important it is for one to get comfortable. I think we have to give him some really simple reads/throws early on. This will:
-obviously raise his confidence level, which is so important during the game for a QB
-gets him in a rhythm, also super important
-gets other skill players involved in game, gets them comfortable
-makes up for lackluster protection
-decreases the odds for a 3 and out, let’s the defense rest longer
-and most importantly, saves the shot plays for LATER on in the game. By doing this you’ve got guys who are hopefully now in some sort of rhythm, and you’ve got the defense worried about the short game. Once the safeties come creeping up, it’ll be there every time. Coaches need to help him out
Easy passes are exactly how guys like Erv Phillips caught 90 balls... twice! Riley filled the role in 2018. What happened to those routes? From the slot just run straight and turn around after 8 yards? The defense clearly impacts the routes available but those are truly simple passes that we used to dominate.
 

sufandu

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I think very few on here really understand the offense. I dont many here every played QB and most in here are old enough that none of this style of offense even existed back in our day.. Sure he made some bad plays/throws. But as Dino says lost of things have to go right for a play to work. if the first read is Wide and its covered and the 2nd read is inside and that guy runs the wrong route the QB ends up looking pretty lost.

We as a group also fail to understand the reads are in a pre-determined order based on the play and the D and the down/distance.. Its not as simple hey that guy is more open throw it to him . Maybe the offense has a play and the D is in man look. That tells the first look to be the X running a slant, but the D was hiding some coverage so that look is not good post snap. So they he comes off it to the check down but they cover that too or he runs the wrong route and now he wants his 3rd read but the oline has missed something and the play has broken down.

we have issues in lots of places. there were 3-4 throws made where WRs ran to the wrong spot, we had several bad throws, we had 3-4 drops, we had 3-4-5 bad protections.. We had 2-3 good protections where the RBs missed blocks. And I am sure we had multiple bad reads by the QB..
I would agree if some of the coaches on here weren't voicing many of the same things a lot of posters are saying. I have my doubts about TD. That's not to say I think he deserves all of the blame.
 

SoBristol

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To the OP, I am sure not many here have played QB, and many are older folks, as you suggest. At the same time, many here have watched a lot of SU football, a lot of different QBs playing for SU, and a lot of college and pro QBs over the years. You don't have to analyze everything to see if the QB is able to use weapons, go to secondary receivers, make plays when he rolls out.

With Dungey at QB, there was always the feeling that the team had a chance, that he was one of the better players on the field, that if he couldn't get a score with a pass, he would get the down or get the score with his feet.

With Tommy, well -- it is different.
 

Entropic

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TD's issues have never been about throwing mechanics or arm strength. He has size and the physical tools. He just doesn't see the field or feel the pocket. I'm not sure how to make those things better. Seem like mental gifts that some players have.

I will be the first to tell you that I never had the physical tools or talent to be QB. Plenty of great coaches out there (Leach) that never played high level football themselves but are great coaches. You watch enough football, study what smart people say and learn from smart people you can adequately assess a position that you never played yourself.
 

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