Position Grades for Next Years Team | Syracusefan.com

Position Grades for Next Years Team

Niastri

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I thought this was an interesting discussion and I am cross posting here, since it's otherwise buried deep in an inappropriate recruiting thread. One poster suggested that or guards deserved an A ranking, and another snarked "you think this is one of the best groups of guards we've ever had?" To me, that seemed like a silly thing to say, and this was my response:

I would suggest we are using a standard distribution across A,B,C,D, and F... Not across every team ever, but across the current teams in high major basketball, because who cares if Girard and co. are better than Directional University's guards? So an A position group should be a top 20% of all high major groups. I'll call high major the top 10 conferences by NET, although only because that includes the WCC, and thus Gonzaga.

Guards: B

Girard is a proven commodity as a shooter and ball handler (for better or worse) who is moving into a more natural role as shooting guard for the first time, so he should light up some score boards. His point guard skills cost us some games, so having Mintz and Torrence to help him improves this group. Mintz is very high upside, but inexperienced at this level, and Torrence is a steady pass first point guard who hasn't done much yet in his college career. Copeland is unlikely to play this year. I think you could argue that this group is better than 60-75% of all guards groups, but 80th percentile seems a big stretch.

Forwards: D

This group has a ton of potential, but has done almost nothing. We seem to have Benny Williams locked in at one forward, but nobody can even say for sure if he's a big small forward or a quick power forward or just an ineffective tweener. He was a highly rated recruit, and JB seems to have faith Williams will be good, but his upside hasn't yet come through. Everybody else is a freshman or bench warmer. As it stands, Brown, Taylor and Bunch are likely candidates to be in the rotation, but nobody really knows what to expect from them. Two of them need to be good, or we will see some three guard lineups while JB tries to get something to work. I think at least one of the freshman and potentially even Ajok put together enough for the team to be good.

Center: B

Edwards is an extremely solid center, perhaps the best in the ACC. He can score, defend and rebound. He is very good in the 2-3 deflecting and preventing shots and passes. But he is foul prone and his backups in Hima and Carey are largely and completely unknown, respectively. At least neither is 6'9"and 175lbs like former backup centers.

Intangibles: B

This team is way better constructed than last year. Or defense had too little athleticism and we had too many guys who could only help the team by shooting. Our upcoming team has everything. Pick and roll, drive and finish, drive and dish, three point assassins, drive and kick, rebounding and athletes to play good defense again. We should be able to score, even if we can't figure out exactly who is going to score what. But more importantly, we should get better all season long on defense, and not get torched on the boards game after game all year long. And don't get me started again on breaking pressure and inbounding successfully.

The Girard and Edwards pick and roll was very promising before Edwards got hurt last year. My optimism on how good they can be running the pick and roll is the foundation of my faith that well be ok next year. They were looking dominant scoring on the pick and roll. Oh, Edwards breaking his wrist at the end of a losing season isn't a "what if" on the scale of losing Onuaku or Fab Melo, but I think we would have had a long run, maybe even making the NCAA tournament if Edwards hadn't gotten injured.
 

MadNY3

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I thought this was an interesting discussion and I am cross posting here, since it's otherwise buried deep in an inappropriate recruiting thread. One poster suggested that or guards deserved an A ranking, and another snarked "you think this is one of the best groups of guards we've ever had?" To me, that seemed like a silly thing to say, and this was my response:

I would suggest we are using a standard distribution across A,B,C,D, and F... Not across every team ever, but across the current teams in high major basketball, because who cares if Girard and co. are better than Directional University's guards? So an A position group should be a top 20% of all high major groups. I'll call high major the top 10 conferences by NET, although only because that includes the WCC, and thus Gonzaga.

Guards: B

Girard is a proven commodity as a shooter and ball handler (for better or worse) who is moving into a more natural role as shooting guard for the first time, so he should light up some score boards. His point guard skills cost us some games, so having Mintz and Torrence to help him improves this group. Mintz is very high upside, but inexperienced at this level, and Torrence is a steady pass first point guard who hasn't done much yet in his college career. Copeland is unlikely to play this year. I think you could argue that this group is better than 60-75% of all guards groups, but 80th percentile seems a big stretch.

Forwards: D

This group has a ton of potential, but has done almost nothing. We seem to have Benny Williams locked in at one forward, but nobody can even say for sure if he's a big small forward or a quick power forward or just an ineffective tweener. He was a highly rated recruit, and JB seems to have faith Williams will be good, but his upside hasn't yet come through. Everybody else is a freshman or bench warmer. As it stands, Brown, Taylor and Bunch are likely candidates to be in the rotation, but nobody really knows what to expect from them. Two of them need to be good, or we will see some three guard lineups while JB tries to get something to work. I think at least one of the freshman and potentially even Ajok put together enough for the team to be good.

Center: B

Edwards is an extremely solid center, perhaps the best in the ACC. He can score, defend and rebound. He is very good in the 2-3 deflecting and preventing shots and passes. But he is foul prone and his backups in Hima and Carey are largely and completely unknown, respectively. At least neither is 6'9"and 175lbs like former backup centers.

Intangibles: B

This team is way better constructed than last year. Or defense had too little athleticism and we had too many guys who could only help the team by shooting. Our upcoming team has everything. Pick and roll, drive and finish, drive and dish, three point assassins, drive and kick, rebounding and athletes to play good defense again. We should be able to score, even if we can't figure out exactly who is going to score what. But more importantly, we should get better all season long on defense, and not get torched on the boards game after game all year long. And don't get me started again on breaking pressure and inbounding successfully.

The Girard and Edwards pick and roll was very promising before Edwards got hurt last year. My optimism on how good they can be running the pick and roll is the foundation of my faith that well be ok next year. They were looking dominant scoring on the pick and roll. Oh, Edwards breaking his wrist at the end of a losing season isn't a "what if" on the scale of losing Onuaku or Fab Melo, but I think we would have had a long run, maybe even making the NCAA tournament if Edwards hadn't gotten injured.
C+
C
B+
?
 

CousCuse

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I thought this was an interesting discussion and I am cross posting here, since it's otherwise buried deep in an inappropriate recruiting thread. One poster suggested that or guards deserved an A ranking, and another snarked "you think this is one of the best groups of guards we've ever had?" To me, that seemed like a silly thing to say, and this was my response:

I would suggest we are using a standard distribution across A,B,C,D, and F... Not across every team ever, but across the current teams in high major basketball, because who cares if Girard and co. are better than Directional University's guards? So an A position group should be a top 20% of all high major groups. I'll call high major the top 10 conferences by NET, although only because that includes the WCC, and thus Gonzaga.

Guards: B

Girard is a proven commodity as a shooter and ball handler (for better or worse) who is moving into a more natural role as shooting guard for the first time, so he should light up some score boards. His point guard skills cost us some games, so having Mintz and Torrence to help him improves this group. Mintz is very high upside, but inexperienced at this level, and Torrence is a steady pass first point guard who hasn't done much yet in his college career. Copeland is unlikely to play this year. I think you could argue that this group is better than 60-75% of all guards groups, but 80th percentile seems a big stretch.

Forwards: D

This group has a ton of potential, but has done almost nothing. We seem to have Benny Williams locked in at one forward, but nobody can even say for sure if he's a big small forward or a quick power forward or just an ineffective tweener. He was a highly rated recruit, and JB seems to have faith Williams will be good, but his upside hasn't yet come through. Everybody else is a freshman or bench warmer. As it stands, Brown, Taylor and Bunch are likely candidates to be in the rotation, but nobody really knows what to expect from them. Two of them need to be good, or we will see some three guard lineups while JB tries to get something to work. I think at least one of the freshman and potentially even Ajok put together enough for the team to be good.

Center: B

Edwards is an extremely solid center, perhaps the best in the ACC. He can score, defend and rebound. He is very good in the 2-3 deflecting and preventing shots and passes. But he is foul prone and his backups in Hima and Carey are largely and completely unknown, respectively. At least neither is 6'9"and 175lbs like former backup centers.

Intangibles: B

This team is way better constructed than last year. Or defense had too little athleticism and we had too many guys who could only help the team by shooting. Our upcoming team has everything. Pick and roll, drive and finish, drive and dish, three point assassins, drive and kick, rebounding and athletes to play good defense again. We should be able to score, even if we can't figure out exactly who is going to score what. But more importantly, we should get better all season long on defense, and not get torched on the boards game after game all year long. And don't get me started again on breaking pressure and inbounding successfully.

The Girard and Edwards pick and roll was very promising before Edwards got hurt last year. My optimism on how good they can be running the pick and roll is the foundation of my faith that well be ok next year. They were looking dominant scoring on the pick and roll. Oh, Edwards breaking his wrist at the end of a losing season isn't a "what if" on the scale of losing Onuaku or Fab Melo, but I think we would have had a long run, maybe even making the NCAA tournament if Edwards hadn't gotten injured.
I don't think there was anything more the staff could do to strengthen the center and guard positions. They got a guy in Hima who I believe will be excellent in the zone and has length and some shooters touch. He was the best available player who would come for back up minutes. Along with Carey, that's 3 deep at center. In the guard position they have Joe and Sy who are very experienced and Joe is considered a top quality shooting guard. Then they added Judah who many people view as a special player and a significant and consequential recruit for the program. Taylor and Copeland are also quality recruits who could be important backup players if needed. I just don't see how anyone could of expected better for those 3 spots.
 

CardiacCuse

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guards - B+(people are sleeping on Sy's improvement - Senior JG3 and Sy + Judah etc...SU has had worse guard groups on very very good teams in the past, imo)
forwards - C- (could go higher could go lower - big question marks here - would like another portal forward)
Center - A (how many non-NBA centers out there are you straight up trading for Edwards??? not (m)any!)
Intangible - ???? no idea... but probably good...
 

UD1954

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I believe that JG3 playing more combo guard then pure point only helps next years team... I also believe that better guard play defensively will allow our forwards to play more like our forwards of the past.
 

Niastri

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I believe that JG3 playing more combo guard then pure point only helps next years team... I also believe that better guard play defensively will allow our forwards to play more like our forwards of the past.

I worry that we will play Mintz and Girard together a lot of minutes. They are both arguably combo guards and JB may just be more comfortable with the senior playing point instead of the freshman. If so, we're kind of back to last year, with a freshman instead of Buddy. I think I think JB won't make that mistake, but he seems to really like Girard and JB might have blinders on.
 

Niastri

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C+
C
B+
?
You're really high on our forwards without any explanation... Who do you think is going be good enough to merit a C for the whole group?
 

RF2044

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I believe that JG3 playing more combo guard then pure point only helps next years team... I also believe that better guard play defensively will allow our forwards to play more like our forwards of the past.

My concern is that Joe thrived this year, and was much more efficient as a shooter, as the fourth wheel on offense. He benefitted from defenses targeting Buddy, Jimmy, and Cole and to his credit took his shooting efficiency up an increment.

Joe is small and not an especially good athlete. If the offense is structured around him having the ultimate green light, can he still maintain a similar level of efficiency, or will he revert when opposing teams make him the focal point of their defensive game plan?

Not knocking Joe, for the record, just expressing the concern.
 

Niastri

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guards - B+(people are sleeping on Sy's improvement - Senior JG3 and Sy + Judah etc...SU has had worse guard groups on very very good teams in the past, imo)
forwards - C- (could go higher could go lower - big question marks here - would like another portal forward)
Center - A (how many non-NBA centers out there are you straight up trading for Edwards??? not (m)any!)
Intangible - ???? no idea... but probably good...

My reasoning for a high grade in intangibles is that we already have chemistry between Edwards and Girard, while all the other pieces make sense. Unlike last year there aren't any obvious structural problems in the roster, besides inexperience.

I'm very excited about the potential of the pick and roll between Edwards and Girard... Everything else gets better if they continue to be a huge threat out of the pick and roll. I am salivating at the prospect of Mintz or Williams getting the ball in space as our opponents have to send a third defender to stop Girard from getting open threes and/or Edwards getting easy dunks.

Whoever is at the other forward spot merely has to show up on defense and be credible on wide open threes and the offense could really click.
 

Niastri

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My concern is that Joe thrived this year, and was much more efficient as a shooter, as the fourth wheel on offense. He benefitted from defenses targeting Buddy, Jimmy, and Cole and to his credit took his shooting efficiency up an increment.

Joe is small and not an especially good athlete. If the offense is structured around him having the ultimate green light, can he still maintain a similar level of efficiency, or will he revert when opposing teams make him the focal point of their defensive game plan?

Not knocking Joe, for the record, just expressing the concern.

I hope the offense plays a little more inside out next year than it did this year. Edwards can score on most defenders one on one, and seems to have the passing skills to hit open shooters. If he also can hit cutters to the basket at a high rate, then the post offense could be really good against most teams.

Then we have the pick and roll.

Girard could be good as the designated shooter in the motion offense.

Mintz and maybe Williams can score in isolation.

Four good offensive game plans considering the personnel.

Girard should get good shots from the pick and roll and motion offenses. Hopefully other players can draw and dish to him at a high level.

My dream is Girard gets 10+ good threes a game, hitting at 40-50%. His bad shots will bring his overall volume up and percentage down, but combined with being our designated free throw shooter, he'll average close to 20. I would still take the under, but not at 2-1 odds.
 

RF2044

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I hope the offense plays a little more inside out next year than it did this year. Edwards can score on most defenders one on one, and seems to have the passing skills to hit open shooters. If he also can hit cutters to the basket at a high rate, then the post offense could be really good against most teams.

Then we have the pick and roll.

Girard could be good as the designated shooter in the motion offense.

Mintz and maybe Williams can score in isolation.

Four good offensive game plans considering the personnel.

Girard should get good shots from the pick and roll and motion offenses. Hopefully other players can draw and dish to him at a high level.

My dream is Girard gets 10+ good threes a game, hitting at 40-50%. His bad shots will bring his overall volume up and percentage down, but combined with being our designated free throw shooter, he'll average close to 20. I would still take the under, but not at 2-1 odds.

My dream scenario is that Williams and / or Mintz become the leading scorers [no sure thing on either count]. With the offense flowing through them, Jesse gets lots of scoring opportunities off of lobs [much like last year] and in the paint off of penetrations and the offensive glass, and Joe is again in a complimentary role. One where he can still get good shots and maintain reasonable percentages, but not predominate the ball a la Tyus / Buddy.

And that as a secondary ball handler, he's also able to push the ball in transition, drive and dish, etc.
 
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OttoinGrotto

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My concern is that Joe thrived this year, and was much more efficient as a shooter, as the fourth wheel on offense. He benefitted from defenses targeting Buddy, Jimmy, and Cole and to his credit took his shooting efficiency up an increment.

Joe is small and not an especially good athlete. If the offense is structured around him having the ultimate green light, can he still maintain a similar level of efficiency, or will he revert when opposing teams make him the focal point of their defensive game plan?

Not knocking Joe, for the record, just expressing the concern.
He's going to be a "volume scorer." It's destiny.
 

NorSyr66

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I don't think there was anything more the staff could do to strengthen the center and guard positions. They got a guy in Hima who I believe will be excellent in the zone and has length and some shooters touch. He was the best available player who would come for back up minutes. Along with Carey, that's 3 deep at center. In the guard position they have Joe and Sy who are very experienced and Joe is considered a top quality shooting guard. Then they added Judah who many people view as a special player and a significant and consequential recruit for the program. Taylor and Copeland are also quality recruits who could be important backup players if needed. I just don't see how anyone could of expected better for those 3 spots.
Good post. Totally agree on center. I still am concerned about Benny until I see him play a couple of games next season. As they say, "the proof will be in the pudding"!
 

Niastri

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My dream scenario is that Williams and / or Mintz become the leading scorers [no sure thing on either count]. With the offense flowing through them, Jesse gets lots of scoring opportunities off of lobs [much like last year] and in the paint off of penetrations and the offensive glass, and Joe is again in a complimentary role. One where he can still get good shots and maintain reasonable percentages, but not predominate the ball a la Tyus / Buddy.

And that as a secondary ball handler, he's also able to push the ball in transition, drive and dish, etc.
You're dreaming bigger than me, RF! :)

I'm truly just hoping that Girard isn't given an unfettered green light where he averages 25+ shots a game, half of them of the stupid variety.

In this scenario he averages 22ppg or more, but shoots us out of half a dozen games.

EDIT: or what OiG said in fewer sentences.
 

RF2044

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You're dreaming bigger than me, RF! :)

I'm truly just hoping that Girard isn't given an unfettered green light where he averages 25+ shots a game, half of them of the stupid variety.

In this scenario he averages 22ppg or more, but shoots us out of half a dozen games.

EDIT: or what OiG said in fewer sentences.

Agree 100%.
 

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