So any chance we see some 3-3-5? | Syracusefan.com

So any chance we see some 3-3-5?

OttoinGrotto

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With Bear's injury, we know our defense already likes to have the nickel out there.

I wonder how much we're thinking about 3 on the d-line with a standard 3 lb set. We don't have proven lb talent, but we do have more bodies there, some of which appear to be young but talented. At the very least, it feels like the young lbs are a little bit ahead in the conversation for PT than the young DTs.

No insider info, just something I'm thinking might be a possibility.
 

Consigliere

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Certainly makes sense depending on the offensive scheme we are facing. Against a spread and with two DEs that can beat double teams routinely seems like a no brainer - particularly with the depth of talent in the secondary and the potential of the young LB. Hope we see at least snippets of it during the first two weeks in potential hot, humid. road stadiums.
 

RF2044

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With Bear's injury, we know our defense already likes to have the nickel out there.

I wonder how much we're thinking about 3 on the d-line with a standard 3 lb set. We don't have proven lb talent, but we do have more bodies there, some of which appear to be young but talented. At the very least, it feels like the young lbs are a little bit ahead in the conversation for PT than the young DTs.

No insider info, just something I'm thinking might be a possibility.

Sure.

But what will we do when teams line up to run straight at us, and will we be able to stop them? That's the concern.
 

OttoinGrotto

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Sure.

But what will we do when teams line up to run straight at us, and will we be able to stop them? That's the concern.
Will we be able to stop them with a lesser DT?
 

Rocco

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You'll see variations of everything this year, especially given the quality depth in the secondary.

Fully expect to see more of a quick DL lineup (NASCAR) if more injuries surface.

Josh Black and Kenny Ruff will be vital against the BC's and Pitt's of the schedule. Our nickel(s) will be put to task in run support.
 

money3189

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Running a package on 3rd down is different from totally changing to a 3-5. Thats a big change in philosophy and scheme. Very hard to switch from a 4-3. You have to teach new techniques against the variety of offensive schemes in the ACC.
 

SUFan44

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3-3-5
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You'll see variations of everything this year, especially given the quality depth in the secondary.

Fully expect to see more of a quick DL lineup (NASCAR) if more injuries surface.

Josh Black and Kenny Ruff will be vital against the BC's and Pitt's of the schedule. Our nickel(s) will be put to task in run support.

This is where a beefed up Cisco and a healthy Foster will be key. If they can provide run support in early down situations, it will be beneficial.

But if our DT's/DE's can't hold the point of attack, it may not matter anyway. Will be fascinating to see.
 

SUskibum

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3-3-5
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You'll see variations of everything this year, especially given the quality depth in the secondary.

Fully expect to see more of a quick DL lineup (NASCAR) if more injuries surface.

Josh Black and Kenny Ruff will be vital against the BC's and Pitt's of the schedule. Our nickel(s) will be put to task in run support.
Yup, Trill and NyQuil are licking their chops while Cisco is telling them to hold his beer with his new guns.

We were going to need more support for the middle of the secondary this year before the injury. Now it’s all the more important

Thank god we have have a bunch of 6’ to 6-2” kids at 210-225 lbs back there now :cool:
 

RF2044

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Will we be able to stop them with a lesser DT?

That isn't the point -- playing 3-3-5 isn't going to stop a team determined to run, either. It doesn't "solve" the problem of McKinley Williams's injury, if he can't play for an extended period of time.

I would expect that we'll see a variety of different formations [including some variation on 3-3-5], based upon situational need and what the opponent is trying to do. But we can't use that type of formation / personnel against teams determined to run the ball down our throats.
 
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OttoinGrotto

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That isn't the point -- playing 3-3-5 isn't going to stop a team determined to run, either. It doesn't "solve" the problem of McKinley Williams's injury, if he can't play for an extended period of time.

I would expect that we'll see a variety of different formations [including some variation on 3-3-5], based upon situational need and what the opponent is trying to do. But we can't use that type of formation / personnel against teams determined to run the ball down our throats.
There are teams that primarily run a 3-3-5 as their base defense. They accept the tradeoff of the positional alignment.

If the next DT up is a seive, we may very well have a better chance against the run with a different alignment.
 

blizz

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Just my 2 cents, but I think the chances are slim and none. 3-3-5 requires much different personnel in the front than what we have. We've got the db's to play nickel sets, but up front it would be a difficult (and unwise) change.

How about this...let's have a little confidence that we've got younger guys who will respond when they get thrown into the fire. Curtis Harper, Grosvenor, and Zach Morton have all been on the shelf, but each one can play. A few of the frosh may surprise as well, I'm thinking Tuazama and Rondi here. The door is open for those guys to take their best shot. Let's see what happens.
 

money3189

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Just my 2 cents, but I think the chances are slim and none. 3-3-5 requires much different personnel in the front than what we have. We've got the db's to play nickel sets, but up front it would be a difficult (and unwise) change.

How about this...let's have a little confidence that we've got younger guys who will respond when they get thrown into the fire. Curtis Harper, Grosvenor, and Zach Morton have all been on the shelf, but each one can play. A few of the frosh may surprise as well, I'm thinking Tuazama and Rondi here. The door is open for those guys to take their best shot. Let's see what happens.
Bingo. You have to live and breath your defensive philosophy. Its a culture. You cant be ready to change things around because of one DT. You will never be good defensively when you do things like that. True schemes don't waiver. They find a way to get it done. Its next man up mentality. You recruit and develop players for situations like this.
 
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djorange1989

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Bingo. You have to live and breath your defensive philosophy. Its a culture. You cant be ready to change things around because of one DT. You will never be good defensively when you do things like that. True schemes don't waver. The find a way to get it done. Its next man up mentality. You recruit and develop players for situations like this.

I wish Chuck Bullough got this memo in 2013 before the Georgia Tech game ;)
 

RF2044

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There are teams that primarily run a 3-3-5 as their base defense. They accept the tradeoff of the positional alignment.

If the next DT up is a seive, we may very well have a better chance against the run with a different alignment.

Sure -- and those teams recruit personnel for that system, practice it extensively, and are adept at running it.

We saw what happened a few years ago when we tried to switch to a 3-4 to counter Georgia Tech's run option game, and what a disaster it was. We also saw during Dino's first season that he was committed to implementing his base defensive system, even though our personnel weren't optimized for it at that time.

We have [had?] three very experienced DTs heading into the year, and we still have two. Hopefully the backups are ready to step up and not be sieves.
 

007

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Bingo. You have to live and breath your defensive philosophy. Its a culture. You cant be ready to change things around because of one DT. You will never be good defensively when you do things like that. True schemes don't waver. The find a way to get it done. Its next man up mentality. You recruit and develop players for situations like this.

Amen money3189 . Unless you've lived it, it is hard to fully appreciate how substantial a change from an even to odd front is, let alone some of the 3-3-5 stuff. As some have mentioned, that can, and is, routinely done as a "package" personnel grouping for certain down and distance situations.

But, to change a base defense this "late" is a huge deal. Besides the physical differences you would need in DLs (compared to an even front), there is a domino effect to allignments, coverages, gap responsibilities, run fits and so on.

I know i am speaking to the choir with you and that you can explain this stuff way better than I can.
 

OttoinGrotto

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Amen money3189 . Unless you've lived it, it is hard to fully appreciate how substantial a change from an even to odd front is, let alone some of the 3-3-5 stuff. As some have mentioned, that can, and is, routinely done as a "package" personnel grouping for certain down and distance situations.

But, to change a base defense this "late" is a huge deal. Besides the physical differences you would need in DLs (compared to an even front), there is a domino effect to allignments, coverages, gap responsibilities, run fits and so on.

I know i am speaking to the choir with you and that you can explain this stuff way better than I can.
I think I posted something misleading - I wasn't proposing a full shift to 3-3-5.

More thinking along the lines that the likelihood we see 3-3-5 alignments may be increased with this injury.
 

money3189

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Sure -- and those teams recruit personnel for that system, practice it extensively, and are adept at running it.

We saw what happened a few years ago when we tried to switch to a 3-4 to counter Georgia Tech's run option game, and what a disaster it was. We also saw during Dino's first season that he was committed to implementing his base defensive system, even though our personnel weren't optimized for it at that time.

We have [had?] three very experienced DTs heading into the year, and we still have two. Hopefully the backups are ready to step up and not be sieves.
Good points
 

007

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I think I posted something misleading - I wasn't proposing a full shift to 3-3-5.

More thinking along the lines that the likelihood we see 3-3-5 alignments may be increased with this injury.

Gotcha

Wild guess here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the staff wasn't already thinking about getting more DE types on the field during obvious passing downs. And then there is the stuff they could do with someone like Richards - DE/LB hybrid.
 

OttoinGrotto

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Gotcha

Wild guess here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the staff wasn't already thinking about getting more DE types on the field during obvious passing downs. And then there is the stuff they could do with someone like Richards - DE/LB hybrid.
Yeah, I think Richards is the wildcard. We know he's been used differently. Maybe now the staff is encouraged to roll the dice on that a little more.
 

money3189

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I think I posted something misleading - I wasn't proposing a full shift to 3-3-5.

More thinking along the lines that the likelihood we see 3-3-5 alignments may be increased with this injury.
It could increase slightly. I just think we will use a couple players to fill the role he left but maybe they will use a 3 man front a little more until he gets back. Its a good question.
 

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