Some Thoughts | Syracusefan.com

Some Thoughts

sutomcat

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It will be very interesting to see how scheduling is set up for the new ACC, particularly for basketball.

I know one of the biggest reasons a lot of the ACC schools hated the first round of ACC raids on the Big East because it ended round robin play in basketball, which diluted long standing rivalries and deprived programs the chance to see all the other ACC schools each season at home.

One would think that with 2 divisions of 7 or 8 teams, you would play round robin inside your division and 1 game a season against some portion of the other division each year, to get to a typical 16-18 game regular season. If you put all the Big East teams in the North, as expected, all the original ACC teams would get to play round robin again except UMd, UVa and Virginia Tech. Let's That should make the other schools pretty happy. And if you assume UConn gets in, UMd and UVa get to play UConn, Pitt and Syracuse at home every year. That is a heck of a way to start a home schedule...they will be able to sell tickets and keep their fanbase interested.

But...I doubt that the ACC is going to do this. Why? Why else? Money. Television will not like that kind of a schedule at all. They would not be happy with a schedule where Syracuse and Duke only played once every two years (or Pitt vs UNC, or UConn vs Duke, etc., etc.).

I think if the ACC wants the big increase in payout they crave, so they can be competitive (or at least somewhat competitive) with the SEC and Big Ten, they are going to have to do what the Big East has done for years...play an unbalanced schedule tailored for great TV matchups. So that in the end, even of Duke and UNC are in different divisions than Pitt and Syracuse, they are going to end up playing each other each season no matter what. Wake Forest might see Syracuse in Winston-Salem once every 8 years, and Pitt might only play G Tech in Atlanta once every 8 years, so the schedule will have that funky Big East weirdness about it, and a mediocre team that doesn't play many of the top teams may well end up winning the ACC in large part because of playing an easier schedule.

I am not an ACC fan, don't know this for a fact but I bet that the ACC has already been playing unbalanced schedules, where Duke and UNC play each other home and home in basketball every season no matter what. If they don't, I am impressed and maybe the ACC won't bend scheduling to make TV happy. But I doubt it.

The other thing I would love to see is for the SEC to raid the ACC and take FSU away, so there is a spot for WVU at the ACC table. I don't really care about FSU...it might hurt ACC football a little but if you crunch the numbers, I think you will find WVU has been the better football program for a while now, and they definitely have a better basketball program these days too. The best thing about having this happen is that it would set up an 8 team North Division that would be all Big East teams, except for Maryland. It would be great for traveling and I think the ACC schools, especially Virginia, would really like it too.

Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

If I were the SEC and I could pick who I wanted (and I think that they can), I know I would pick FSU before WVU. Not because FSU has better programs right now but because it brings more eyeballs to the TVs, is more of a national school and closer to other SEC schools and is a better cultural fit than the Mountaineers.
 

Moontan

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With 14 teams they could split into 2 divisions and for hoops play double round robin within the division and single round robin with the other division. That makes 2*6 + 7 = 19 games which is doable. With 16 teams going the pod route this would yield 2*3 + 12 = 18 games. Pods are for scheduling only, standings will list all 16 teams and tournament seeding is based on the overall standings.

Of course, this being the television era, these pods don't have to be fixed... they could be changed on a yearly basis to allow for additional featured TV games. At least with 16 teams you'd get to play against every other program.. a bit more manageable than 21 (or was it 38?) teams.

Pods are also the way to go for football. There are two flavors to consider here.
  1. Play everyone in local the pod and 2 out of each of the other pods. That's 3 + 3*2 = 9 games. This way a 4-year athlete has the possibility of playing home and away against every program. It's the way to do it... though your direct rivalries are limited to those in your pod.
  2. To set up some sub-rivalries, each pod could have a sister-pod which together form a division. A school would play all members of the sister-pod every other year. For those years you'd add one out-of division game to get to 3+4+1=8 games.

    For the non-divisional years a school would play two teams of each of the other pods. There would also be one game with a sister-pod school. For these years you'd have 3 + 2*2 + 1 = 8 games. This way a 4-year athlete would has the possibility of playing home and away with each school in the sister pod and either home or away against teams in the other two pods.
For football schools would be split into divisions (2 pods per division) so that there would be a traditional championship game.
 

N.Y. Orangeman

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Great Post. That being said, while I'm fine with adding WVU, I hate the idea of losing FSU.
 

MikeSU02

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The other thing I would love to see is for the SEC to raid the ACC and take FSU away, so there is a spot for WVU at the ACC table. I don't really care about FSU...it might hurt ACC football a little but if you crunch the numbers, I think you will find WVU has been the better football program for a while now, and they definitely have a better basketball program these days too. The best thing about having this happen is that it would set up an 8 team North Division that would be all Big East teams, except for Maryland. It would be great for traveling and I think the ACC schools, especially Virginia, would really like it too.

Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

If I were the SEC and I could pick who I wanted (and I think that they can), I know I would pick FSU before WVU. Not because FSU has better programs right now but because it brings more eyeballs to the TVs, is more of a national school and closer to other SEC schools and is a better cultural fit than the Mountaineers.

The ACC needs to keep FSU, VT and Miami. They anchor football, no matter who is doing what right now. Miami/FSU also gives us a chance to make an impression in the panhandle and south florida.
 

IthacaBarrel

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Eitherway, the worst case scenario looks 100 times better than the Big East was going to provide, even if they lose FSU. This is fantastic
 

sutomcat

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The ACC needs to keep FSU, VT and Miami. They anchor football, no matter who is doing what right now. Miami/FSU also gives us a chance to make an impression in the panhandle and south florida.
With the $20 million exit fee, it will be tough for anyone to leave now, even for the untold riches of the SEC. More than anything, the decision to bump the exit fee will likely result in WVU joining the SEC.

Yee ha! Everyone wins. Okay, not everyone, but most of our favorites anyway...
 

GoSU96

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With the $20 million exit fee, it will be tough for anyone to leave now, even for the untold riches of the SEC. More than anything, the decision to bump the exit fee will likely result in WVU joining the SEC.

Yee ha! Everyone wins. Okay, not everyone, but most of our favorites anyway...

My guess is that FSU doesn't really wants to go to the SEC. Same with VT. Clemson, is the most SEC like team in the conference and if they saw the opportunity, they would jumps in it.
 

PhatOrange

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It will be very interesting to see how scheduling is set up for the new ACC, particularly for basketball.

I know one of the biggest reasons a lot of the ACC schools hated the first round of ACC raids on the Big East because it ended round robin play in basketball, which diluted long standing rivalries and deprived programs the chance to see all the other ACC schools each season at home.

One would think that with 2 divisions of 7 or 8 teams, you would play round robin inside your division and 1 game a season against some portion of the other division each year, to get to a typical 16-18 game regular season. If you put all the Big East teams in the North, as expected, all the original ACC teams would get to play round robin again except UMd, UVa and Virginia Tech. Let's That should make the other schools pretty happy. And if you assume UConn gets in, UMd and UVa get to play UConn, Pitt and Syracuse at home every year. That is a heck of a way to start a home schedule...they will be able to sell tickets and keep their fanbase interested.

But...I doubt that the ACC is going to do this. Why? Why else? Money. Television will not like that kind of a schedule at all. They would not be happy with a schedule where Syracuse and Duke only played once every two years (or Pitt vs UNC, or UConn vs Duke, etc., etc.).

I think if the ACC wants the big increase in payout they crave, so they can be competitive (or at least somewhat competitive) with the SEC and Big Ten, they are going to have to do what the Big East has done for years...play an unbalanced schedule tailored for great TV matchups. So that in the end, even of Duke and UNC are in different divisions than Pitt and Syracuse, they are going to end up playing each other each season no matter what. Wake Forest might see Syracuse in Winston-Salem once every 8 years, and Pitt might only play G Tech in Atlanta once every 8 years, so the schedule will have that funky Big East weirdness about it, and a mediocre team that doesn't play many of the top teams may well end up winning the ACC in large part because of playing an easier schedule.

I am not an ACC fan, don't know this for a fact but I bet that the ACC has already been playing unbalanced schedules, where Duke and UNC play each other home and home in basketball every season no matter what. If they don't, I am impressed and maybe the ACC won't bend scheduling to make TV happy. But I doubt it.

The other thing I would love to see is for the SEC to raid the ACC and take FSU away, so there is a spot for WVU at the ACC table. I don't really care about FSU...it might hurt ACC football a little but if you crunch the numbers, I think you will find WVU has been the better football program for a while now, and they definitely have a better basketball program these days too. The best thing about having this happen is that it would set up an 8 team North Division that would be all Big East teams, except for Maryland. It would be great for traveling and I think the ACC schools, especially Virginia, would really like it too.

Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

If I were the SEC and I could pick who I wanted (and I think that they can), I know I would pick FSU before WVU. Not because FSU has better programs right now but because it brings more eyeballs to the TVs, is more of a national school and closer to other SEC schools and is a better cultural fit than the Mountaineers.

14 team model versus 16 team model

Obviously pros and cons for each but I think the football scheduling is much better with a 14 team conference.

In the 14 team model you’re split into two 7 team divisions your intra-division schedule breaks down to 3 home and 3 away. You could then play 1 or 2 home/away cross division games and either have 2 or 4 OOC games.

At 16 and two 8 team divisions you are going to have 4 and 3 (home/away) every year intra-division. That hurts finding a true division champion. The balance would have to come in the cross division games. So every other year you swap 2 home and 1 away to balance your home/away schedule; 5 and 5. That means 10 conference games every season and only 2 OOC.

What’s the ideal OOC #?

I think 3 is but looks like we’ll end up at 2. Four is to many. One OOC game will be a 1 AA leaving just one other opponent. Probably would typically be a mac team. At 16 teams the days of a quality OOC opponent will all but be dead.

14 teams would be my ideal conference size from a scheduling standpoint.
 

upperdeck

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why not just go to 18 and get it done..

8 games in your division and 1-2 on the other side for football.
play everyone every year in bball and you get one team twice home/away..

14-16-18 does it really matter, but you go now you get your choice of schools if you think you ever will be forced to go there..
 

Moontan

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14 teams would be my ideal conference size from a scheduling standpoint.
The downside of 14 (from a football standpoint) is that you end up only playing 2 schools from the other division per year.
This is akin to MLB with distinct AL & NL and the occasional inter-league play. Would you really say that you were in a conference with a school in the other division if you only played them twice every seven years? With a 16-team pod system the schedule could be arranged that you'd play everyone at least every other year. I'm sure the powers-that-be already have all of the options at their disposal.
 

chakka3421

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I still think the 4 4 pod system is the best where you play 3 in your pod (keeps travel costs down), 2 games from each of the other 3 pods making the conference a 9 game conference with 3 OCC games. Dont know about the conference championship game - maybe just the 2 best in the 16 team conference and probably provides for the best way to have a good showing in post season play - even national championship.
 

cliftonparksufan

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It will be very interesting to see how scheduling is set up for the new ACC, particularly for basketball.

If I were the SEC and I could pick who I wanted (and I think that they can), I know I would pick FSU before WVU. Not because FSU has better programs right now but because it brings more eyeballs to the TVs, is more of a national school and closer to other SEC schools and is a better cultural fit than the Mountaineers.

Call me crazy, but haven't we been told that this entire landscape is changing because of football. If that's truly the case, no way that the ACC gives up FSU without a fight. Personally I am on the Yukon/WVU bandwagon, but if its PSU or ND instead of WVU, that's just an added bonus.
 

IthacaMatt

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It will be very interesting to see how scheduling is set up for the new ACC, particularly for basketball.

I know one of the biggest reasons a lot of the ACC schools hated the first round of ACC raids on the Big East because it ended round robin play in basketball, which diluted long standing rivalries and deprived programs the chance to see all the other ACC schools each season at home.

One would think that with 2 divisions of 7 or 8 teams, you would play round robin inside your division and 1 game a season against some portion of the other division each year, to get to a typical 16-18 game regular season. If you put all the Big East teams in the North, as expected, all the original ACC teams would get to play round robin again except UMd, UVa and Virginia Tech. Let's That should make the other schools pretty happy. And if you assume UConn gets in, UMd and UVa get to play UConn, Pitt and Syracuse at home every year. That is a heck of a way to start a home schedule...they will be able to sell tickets and keep their fanbase interested.

But...I doubt that the ACC is going to do this. Why? Why else? Money. Television will not like that kind of a schedule at all. They would not be happy with a schedule where Syracuse and Duke only played once every two years (or Pitt vs UNC, or UConn vs Duke, etc., etc.).

I think if the ACC wants the big increase in payout they crave, so they can be competitive (or at least somewhat competitive) with the SEC and Big Ten, they are going to have to do what the Big East has done for years...play an unbalanced schedule tailored for great TV matchups. So that in the end, even of Duke and UNC are in different divisions than Pitt and Syracuse, they are going to end up playing each other each season no matter what. Wake Forest might see Syracuse in Winston-Salem once every 8 years, and Pitt might only play G Tech in Atlanta once every 8 years, so the schedule will have that funky Big East weirdness about it, and a mediocre team that doesn't play many of the top teams may well end up winning the ACC in large part because of playing an easier schedule.

I am not an ACC fan, don't know this for a fact but I bet that the ACC has already been playing unbalanced schedules, where Duke and UNC play each other home and home in basketball every season no matter what. If they don't, I am impressed and maybe the ACC won't bend scheduling to make TV happy. But I doubt it.

The other thing I would love to see is for the SEC to raid the ACC and take FSU away, so there is a spot for WVU at the ACC table. I don't really care about FSU...it might hurt ACC football a little but if you crunch the numbers, I think you will find WVU has been the better football program for a while now, and they definitely have a better basketball program these days too. The best thing about having this happen is that it would set up an 8 team North Division that would be all Big East teams, except for Maryland. It would be great for traveling and I think the ACC schools, especially Virginia, would really like it too.

Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

If I were the SEC and I could pick who I wanted (and I think that they can), I know I would pick FSU before WVU. Not because FSU has better programs right now but because it brings more eyeballs to the TVs, is more of a national school and closer to other SEC schools and is a better cultural fit than the Mountaineers.

I think that they can't do the home-and-home with everyone in your division precisely because you will only see other teams once every few years. I think they have to do what the Big East did, and that is play everyone once, and have 1 (or 3) home-and-home series based on where you are pre-season and your designated rival game.
 

stuckinbig11

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I am thinking that the ACC may want to make a pitch for Penn State to go along with UConn.
 

sufan

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It will be very interesting to see how scheduling is set up for the new ACC, particularly for basketball.

I know one of the biggest reasons a lot of the ACC schools hated the first round of ACC raids on the Big East because it ended round robin play in basketball, which diluted long standing rivalries and deprived programs the chance to see all the other ACC schools each season at home.

One would think that with 2 divisions of 7 or 8 teams, you would play round robin inside your division and 1 game a season against some portion of the other division each year, to get to a typical 16-18 game regular season. If you put all the Big East teams in the North, as expected, all the original ACC teams would get to play round robin again except UMd, UVa and Virginia Tech. Let's That should make the other schools pretty happy. And if you assume UConn gets in, UMd and UVa get to play UConn, Pitt and Syracuse at home every year. That is a heck of a way to start a home schedule...they will be able to sell tickets and keep their fanbase interested.

But...I doubt that the ACC is going to do this. Why? Why else? Money. Television will not like that kind of a schedule at all. They would not be happy with a schedule where Syracuse and Duke only played once every two years (or Pitt vs UNC, or UConn vs Duke, etc., etc.).

I think if the ACC wants the big increase in payout they crave, so they can be competitive (or at least somewhat competitive) with the SEC and Big Ten, they are going to have to do what the Big East has done for years...play an unbalanced schedule tailored for great TV matchups. So that in the end, even of Duke and UNC are in different divisions than Pitt and Syracuse, they are going to end up playing each other each season no matter what. Wake Forest might see Syracuse in Winston-Salem once every 8 years, and Pitt might only play G Tech in Atlanta once every 8 years, so the schedule will have that funky Big East weirdness about it, and a mediocre team that doesn't play many of the top teams may well end up winning the ACC in large part because of playing an easier schedule.

I am not an ACC fan, don't know this for a fact but I bet that the ACC has already been playing unbalanced schedules, where Duke and UNC play each other home and home in basketball every season no matter what. If they don't, I am impressed and maybe the ACC won't bend scheduling to make TV happy. But I doubt it.

The other thing I would love to see is for the SEC to raid the ACC and take FSU away, so there is a spot for WVU at the ACC table. I don't really care about FSU...it might hurt ACC football a little but if you crunch the numbers, I think you will find WVU has been the better football program for a while now, and they definitely have a better basketball program these days too. The best thing about having this happen is that it would set up an 8 team North Division that would be all Big East teams, except for Maryland. It would be great for traveling and I think the ACC schools, especially Virginia, would really like it too.

Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

If I were the SEC and I could pick who I wanted (and I think that they can), I know I would pick FSU before WVU. Not because FSU has better programs right now but because it brings more eyeballs to the TVs, is more of a national school and closer to other SEC schools and is a better cultural fit than the Mountaineers.

---------------

Re: substituting WVU for FSU

You're kidding: right ?????????????
 

Scooch

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The Pac-12 is talking about going to a 4X4 pod system if/when they go to 16 teams. They would determine the conference championship by best overall conference record. Could pose issues with tie-breakers, but I bet they just go with best BCS ranking for that.

I think it works wonderfully from a scheduling standpoint, like others mentioned, 3 games in your pod, 2 against the 3 others so that you play everyone every other year. Only challenge will be competitive balance. You really can't do it geographically in the ACC because you could conceivably have one pod of SU, BC, UConn & Rutgers, and another of Miami, FSU, GT & Clemson. Hoops would be fine, because the other two could be Pitt, MD, UVA, VT; and Duke, UNC, NC St & Wake. But football would need to be balanced. Probably assign FSU, VT and Miami to their own pods, since they're clearly the big football 3, and then work from there.

But 4X4 is the way to go.
 

kcsu

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no way WVU goes to the ACC Uconn Rutgers maybe but not WVU
 

jr4750

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Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

Honestly if that happened if would be like winning the lotto. Essentially we are transplanting the BE into a more lucrative stable conference. Play SJU and G-town every year in hoops and its perfect!
 

Chip

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Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

Honestly if that happened if would be like winning the lotto. Essentially we are transplanting the BE into a more lucrative stable conference. Play SJU and G-town every year in hoops and its perfect!

I assume you mean UVA instead of West Virginia.

If UConn and Rutgers are added and there is an 8 team north, the big winner of existing ACC teams is BC. The big loser is VT. I'm sure their fanbase would much rather play the Carolina schools (quick trip) and Clemson (still a quicker trip and much more interesting opponent). I think they'd also prefer to keep playing Miami each year.

I hope they stay at 14. Don't really need divisions just let the 2 best records play in the championship game. But if there must be divisions, play your 6, then play 3 from the other. 9 game conf schedule, 3 OOC. Rotation of the 3 in the other division keeps the schedule fresh. And as other conferences copy the model, just eliminate the games against 1AA altogether. 1AAs can still play Rutgers.
 

OrangeMuskyFish

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My guess is that FSU doesn't really wants to go to the SEC. Same with VT. Clemson, is the most SEC like team in the conference and if they saw the opportunity, they would jumps in it.

I don't want to see FSU or Clemson go. FSU because it brings the name power that Miami once brought to the Big East, but might be a long while before they can recapture it. And Clemson because they are one of the few ACC teams I don't mind watching. However, I just hope that if one of those schools does jump, WVU is the replacement. I know they aren't a great fit in the ACC, but their quality football/basketball, southern flavor, and tremendous rivalries, all make them a band-aid that could flourish.

As far as Rutgers... why the hell does everyone want them to come to the ACC? I am highly confused here. Their basketball sucks. Their football may not be as bad as their basketball, but relative to the talent recruited, it looks a lot worse. They are a pain in the ass program with an annoying coach. And they aren't really rivals of anyone (we just hate them because they were the ones that proved to us that the program was dying years ago, their coach is shitty, and NJ is good recruiting territory). If you only have one spot left, why not get a hell of a lot more creative than Rutgers?
 

sutomcat

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I assume you mean UVA instead of West Virginia.

If UConn and Rutgers are added and there is an 8 team north, the big winner of existing ACC teams is BC. The big loser is VT. I'm sure their fanbase would much rather play the Carolina schools (quick trip) and Clemson (still a quicker trip and much more interesting opponent). I think they'd also prefer to keep playing Miami each year.

I hope they stay at 14. Don't really need divisions just let the 2 best records play in the championship game. But if there must be divisions, play your 6, then play 3 from the other. 9 game conf schedule, 3 OOC. Rotation of the 3 in the other division keeps the schedule fresh. And as other conferences copy the model, just eliminate the games against 1AA altogether. 1AAs can still play Rutgers.
No, was talking about a scenario where WVU replaces FSU and SU retains as many old rivals as possible. Not likely to happen...there are 20 millions reasons why.

Agree BC is a big winner in all this.

I think V Tech would be okay playing its old Northern buddies. They don't have traditional rivalries with many teams in the ACC and frankly, I think they would have a better chance to win a division and play in the ACC championship game. The big loser to me is Virginia. Old school ACC founding member who gets stuck with all the red haired step children she can't control. At least UMd is closer to the Northern schools and has a decent history with schools like Pitt and SU.

Look forward to seeing V Tech in the Dome again for football. That was a special game and it will be good to get that rivalry going again. It had and again has a chance to be something special.
 

AZOrange

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It will be very interesting to see how scheduling is set up for the new ACC, particularly for basketball.

Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

If I were the SEC and I could pick who I wanted (and I think that they can), I know I would pick FSU before WVU. Not because FSU has better programs right now but because it brings more eyeballs to the TVs, is more of a national school and closer to other SEC schools and is a better cultural fit than the Mountaineers.

God that seems like a brutal basketball conference now...if Uconn comes over. Where are the easy games?
 

ottodaorange

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Proposed Northern Division (assumes UConn and Rutgers gets invites)

Maryland
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Connecticut
Boston College
Rutgers

I would love to see this happen for the obvious reasons except I think the politics would demand Virginia instead of Maryland due to the rivalry with VT and of course the "original sin" of VT supplanting Syracuse in the first defection.
 

All4SU

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I don't see why the networks wouldn't be thrilled with a slate of games where SU, Pitt, UConn (assuming they are in), BC, Maryland, UVA, VT, and Miami play a full home-and-home schedule, with occasional cross-overs that would include either Duke or UNC every year. At the same time, they get the opposite (south division) schedule where Duke and UNC and the rest match up twice a year. Sounds like the perfect scenario to me.
 

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