Syracuse vs. Mississippi

[SWC75]

There has been a lot of outrage on this board that the University of Mississippi is claiming the 1959 national championship. We were certainly the deserving national champions that season. We were the only undefeated team, led the country in yards gained and fewest yards surrendered, (and set an all-time record for the ratio), rushing yards gained and surrenders, (ditto), points scored, first downs and touchdown passes. We finished #1 in both polls and 16 of the 19 national championship selectors the NCAA regards as “major” selectors.

Mississippi won the other three. They lost to defending national LSU on Halloween, 3-7 on Billy cannons legendary 89 yard punt return but came back to smash the Tiger s, 21-0 in the Sugar Bowl in a game that must have been very much like Alabama’s victory by the same score 52 years later. The Rebels out-gained the Tigers 363-74, holding Cannon to 8 yards rushing. His team got -15. It’s not the same thing as being unbeaten but dominating the one team that did beat you is surely the next best thing. One wonders what a poll after the bowls might have looked like. But they didn’t have one in those days.

Mississippi gave up the fewest points in the country, out-scoring 11 teams 350-22, (we were 413-73). They out-gained their opposition 368-141 compared to 439-110 for Syracuse, (I’m including the bowl games). We out-rushed the opposition 297-31 and out-passed them 142-79. The Rebels out-rushed their opposition 230-84 and out-passed them, 138-57.

Some posters have responded as if Mississippi was a paper tiger, (or rebel) in 1959. One said that we would have beaten them by 20-30 points. A big reason for this is that Mississippi, like all southern teams in 1959, were segregated and like many of them, refused to play any team that even used blacks. But it should be noted that this didn’t prevent the writers and coaches from voting Oklahoma, Tennessee, Auburn, LSU, Alabama and Texas #1 in that era.

Another big reason, I believe is that it’s been decades since Mississippi was a real power. They occasionally have good teams these days but they are basically and SEC also-ran these days. That was not the case in the 1950 and 1960’s. In fact, look at this list of the winningest major college football teams from 1950-69:
http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin...=1950&end=1969&rpct=30&min=5&se=on&by=Win+Pct

We have strong reasons to disagree with their claiming the 1959 title and to have contempt for their refusal to use or play blacks but we shouldn’t under-estimate how good they were or assume we would have blown them out if we’d played them.

 

[SWC75]

I have two methods I use to rate teams. Neither is perfect, (no method is) but they are worth looking at. The first one I call “point differential rankings”. The formula is this: if your team beat an opponent by more than anyone else did, or tied an opponent that won all their other games or lost to an all-conquering opponent by the smallest margin, you get a “1”. If one team did better than you did, you get a “2”. If two teams did better, you get a “3”, and so on. It measures both power and consistency. It also compares your team not just to their opposition but to all the teams the opposition played, which will typically include teams from all parts of the country and all the major conferences. Finally, it’s a great way to compare teams of different years and eras because it doesn’t matter how high or low scoring the era was. It doesn’t matter if you got a “1” for beating a team 50-0 or for beating them 20-0. It just matters that it was a “1”. Here is how the 1959 Syracuse and Mississippi rate in “point differential rankings”:

SYRACUSE
Beat Kansas by 14: no one did better so that’s a “1”
Beat Maryland by 29: “1”
Beat Navy by 26: “1”
Beat Holy Cross by 36; Penn State beat them by 46 so that’s a “2”
Beat West Virginia by 44: “1”
Beat Pittsburgh by 35: “1”
Beat Penn State by 2; Pittsburgh beat them by 15, so that’s a “2”
Beat Colgate by 71: “1”
Beat Boston U. by 46: “1”
Beat UCLA by 28: “1”
Beat Texas by 9: “1”

Syracuse gets no extra credit for this but it’s worth noting that the Orange beat both of the teams whose performance against an opponent topped theirs. Overall, SU scored nine 1’s and two 2’s in 11 games, a total of 13, which divided by 11 gives them a ranking of 1.18.

MISSISSIPPI

Beat Houston by 16: Texas A&M beat the Cougars by 22 and Texas Tech beat them by 27 so that’s a “3”
Beat Kentucky by 16 Auburn beat them by 33, so that’s a “2”
Beat Memphis State by 43: “1”
Beat Vanderbilt by 33: “1”
Beat Tulane by 46: “1”
Beat Arkansas by 28: “1”
Lost to Louisiana State by 4: Tennessee beta them by 1 the next week and Ole Miss’s own Sugar Bowl performance tops it, too: “3”
Beat Chattanooga by 58: “1”
Beat Tennessee by 30: “1”
Beat Mississippi State by 42: “1”
Beat LSU in the Sugar Bowl by 21: “1”

That’s a total of 16 ranking points, (eight 1’s, a 2 and two 3’s) in 11 games, an average of 1.45. That’s not as good as Syracuse but it’s pretty darn good. Some years back I figured the point differential rankings for every team that had been ranked #1 by any of those NCAA “major selectors” for last 50 years, (the second half) of the 20th century. Here was the top ten of those teams:

1) Alabama 1973 1.08
2) Syracuse 1959 1.18
3) Nebraska 1995 1.25
4) Notre Dame 1966 1.30
5) Ohio State 1973 1.36
6) Florida State 1993 1.38
7) Oklahoma 1956 1.40
8) Southern California 1972 and Oklahoma 1986 1.42
9) Maryland 1953 and Mississippi 1959 1.45
10) Nebraska 1971 1.54


So a 1959 match-up between Syracuse and Mississippi would have been a battle of two of the most consistently dominant teams of the second half of the twentieth century.

 

[SWC75]

The other way I like to compare teams, when we are talking about teams from the same season, is- brace yourself- comparative scores. Yeah, I know. “There is no transitive property in college football.” You can run scores together to make it look like Slippery Rock would beat Alabama. All you have to do is hitch up the best performance by one team to the worst by another and keep doing it until you achieve your desired result. But I think if you run a lot of lines of comparative scores and most of them point to the same result, that can be more meaningful.

I flipped through the scores in the 1960 NCAA Guide, which gives the 1959 scores) to come up with this: I ran lines of comparative scores from each SU opponent to at least one of the Mississippi opponents. I looked for the shortest, (and thus presumably most meaningful), lines for each SU opponent. If there were other lines for that same opponent of the same length, (as there usually were), I averaged the results for all of them. Then I totaled the results and divided by the number of opponents, (11), to get the team favored by the comparative scores and by how much. The numbers may surprise you.

SU beat Kansas by 14 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +1
SU beat Kansas by 14 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +24
SU beat Kansas by 14 who beat Oklahoma State by 14 who lost to Arkansas by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +6.
TOTAL: Ole Miss +29 in 3 lines = Ole Miss +10.

SU beat Maryland by 29 who lost to Texas by 26 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +24
SU beat Maryland by 29 who lost to Wake Forest by 3 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 26 = Ole Miss +26
SU beat Maryland by 29 who beat UNC by 7 who lost to Tennessee by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Maryland by 29 who beat Virginia by 43 who lost to Vanderbilt by 33 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +6
TOTAL: Ole Miss +60 in 4 lines = Ole Miss +15

SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to SMU by 13 who lost to Arkansas by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +18
SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to Miami by 15 who lost to LSU by 24 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = Ole Miss +9
SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to Miami by 15 who lost to LSU by 24 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +34
SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to Miami by 15 who lost to Kentucky by 19 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +24
TOTAL: Ole Miss +85 over 4 lines = Ole Miss +21

SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Villanova by 20 who lost to Xavier by 28 who lost to Kentucky by 41 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +29
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Villanova by 20 who lost to Detroit by 34 who lost to Kentucky by 25
who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +19
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Cincinnati by 14 who lost to Houston by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +13
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Xavier by 3 who lost to Kentucky by 41 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Detroit by 19 who lost to Kentucky by 41 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Detroit by 19 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +46
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who beat Wichita State by 5 who lost to Houston by 15 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +18
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Ole Miss +36
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +48
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss +33
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = Ole Miss +35
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +37
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +37
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Detroit by 14 who lost to Kentucky by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +37
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Detroit by 14 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +67
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Oklahoma State by 6 who lost to Arkansas by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +22
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Oklahoma State by 6 who beat Houston by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +3
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who beat Cincinnati by 1 who lost to Houston by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU + 2
TOTAL: Ole Miss +471 over 19 lines = Ole Miss +25

SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who lost to Texas by 26 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 22 = Ole Miss +29
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who lost to Wake Forest by 3 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +31
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who beat UNC by 7 who lost to Tennessee by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss by +21
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who beat Virginia by 43 who lost to Vanderbilt by 33 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat Richmond by 3 who lost to Florida State by 16 who lost to Memphis State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +22
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat George Washington by 2 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Kentucky by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +27
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat George Washington by 2 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +57
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat George Washington by 2 who lost to Wichita State by 21 who lost to Houston by 15 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +6
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat Pittsburgh by 8 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +36
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat Pittsburgh by 8 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = SU +11
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +20
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Tie
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +12
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = SU +3
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = SU +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +3
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to USC by 36 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = Ole Miss +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to USC by 36 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +26
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Virginia Tech by 12 who lost to Wake Forest by 9 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +29
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Virginia Tech by 12 who beat Virginia by 26 who lost to Vanderbilt by 33 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Ole Miss +8
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to The Citadel by 6 who lost to Florida State by 38 who lost to Memphis State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +53
TOTAL: Ole Miss +281 in 23 lines = Ole Miss +12

SU beat Pittsburgh by 35 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +19
SU beat Pittsburgh by 35 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss -6
SU beat Pittsburgh by 35 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to Arkansas by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss -6
TOTAL: SU + 7 in 3 lines = SU +2

SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +4
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Ole Miss +24
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +36
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss +21
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = Ole Miss +23
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +25
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +27
TOTAL: Ole Miss +160 in 7 lines = Ole Miss +23

SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +27
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +7
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +5
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = SU +10
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = SU +8
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = SU +6
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +1
TOTAL: SU +52 in 7 lines = SU +7

SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to George Washington by 4 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Kentucky by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +31
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to George Washington by 4 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +61
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +12
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +13
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to Arkansas by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +13
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to Oklahoma State by 14 who lost to Arkansas by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = SU +5
TOTAL: Ole Miss +101 in 6 lines = Ole Miss +17

SU beat UCLA by 28 who tied Purdue who beat Minnesota by 6 who beat Vanderbilt by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +15
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat California by 7 who beat Washington State by 14 who beat Houston by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +47
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat California by 7 who lost to Texas by 33 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +25
SU beat UCLA by 28 who lost to Washington by 16 who beat Washington State by 20 who beat Houston by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +30
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat Stanford by 42 who lost to Washington State by 17 who beat Houston by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +51
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to UNC by 8 who lost to Tennessee by 22, who lost to Ole Miss by 30= Ole Miss +23
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to Wake Forest by 3 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +18
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to Mississippi Southern by 5 who lost to Memphis by 15 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +26
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to Mississippi Southern by 5 who beat Chattanooga by 18 who lost to Ole Miss by 58 = Ole Miss +18
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat USC by 7 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +26
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat USC by 7 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = SU +1
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat USC by 7 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to Arkansas by 16 who lost to Ole Miss by28 = tie
TOTAL: SU +60 in 12 lines = SU +5

SU beat Texas by 9 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +18
TOTAL: Ole Miss +18 in one line = Ole Miss +18

Summary:
the Kansas line = Ole Miss +10
the Maryland line = Ole Miss +15
the Navy line = Ole Miss +21
the Holy Cross line = Ole Miss +25
the West Virginia line = Ole Miss +12
the Pittsburgh line = SU +2
the Penn State line = Ole Miss +23
the Colgate line = SU +7
the Boston U. line = Ole Miss +17
the UCLA line = SU +5
the Texas line: Ole Miss +18
TOTAL: Ole Miss +127 in 11 lines = Ole Miss +12
Looking at the individual lines, SU won 26 of them, (29.2%), Ole Miss 61 of them, (68.5%) with two tied.

The comparative scores, depending on how you look at them, tell us that Mississippi would have won by 12 points or that they would have won about 7 out of 10 games if they’d played that many.

What does this prove? Nothing. Except that the Rebels would certainly have proven a formidable opponent for SU fi they’d played in 1959. I highly doubt we would have beaten them by “20-30 points”, despite the fact that they were a segregated team. They may have limited their available talent pool due to the stupid attitudes that prevailed in their section of the country in those days but they recruited enough top white players to have a very powerful team anyway. They had 9 players drafted by the NFL after that season and six more who would have been on that team drafted in the next two years. Some names I remember: Larry Grantham, star linebacker for the Jet’s Super Bowl winners, Charlie Flowers who was the All-American fullback that year, ends Johnny Brewer and Bobby Crespino and d-back Bobby Franklin, who played for the Cleveland Browns when I grew up rooting for them in the 1960’s. George Blair, a defensive back for the Chargers, Bob Khayat, a kicker for the Redskins, Bookie Bolin, long-time guard for the Giants, Glynn Griffing, who would quarterback their almost as strong 1961-62 teams. Not listed is Jake Gibbs, their 1959-60 quarterback who opted for baseball and played catcher for the Yankees. SU’s 1959 team had four players drafted after the 1959 season but 14 more in the subsequent two years for a total of 18. Ernie Davis, of course, was one of them. All-American guard Roger Davis was another, along with John Brown and Al Bemiller, who had successful NFL careers in the lines of the browns and the Bills, respectively. The others are more famous to us than they were in the NFL. (John Mackey and Walt Sweeney were freshmen in 1959: they joined the varsity the next year.)

I don’t know what would have happened if Syracuse had played Mississippi in 1959 but I think we can thank Billy Cannon that we didn’t have to find out. It seems like one of things that’s better left the way it was.

 

[NineOneSeven]

How many words did you just type?

 

[OburgOrange]

The other way I like to compare teams, when we are talking about teams from the same season, is- brace yourself- comparative scores. Yeah, I know. “There is no transitive property in college football.” You can run scores together to make it look like Slippery Rock would beat Alabama. All you have to do is hitch up the best performance by one team to the worst by another and keep doing it until you achieve your desired result. But I think if you run a lot of lines of comparative scores and most of them point to the same result, that can be more meaningful.

I flipped through the scores in the 1960 NCAA Guide, which gives the 1959 scores) to come up with this: I ran lines of comparative scores from each SU opponent to at least one of the Mississippi opponents. I looked for the shortest, (and thus presumably most meaningful), lines for each SU opponent. If there were other lines for that same opponent of the same length, (as there usually were), I averaged the results for all of them. Then I totaled the results and divided by the number of opponents, (11), to get the team favored by the comparative scores and by how much. The numbers may surprise you.

SU beat Kansas by 14 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +1
SU beat Kansas by 14 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +24
SU beat Kansas by 14 who beat Oklahoma State by 14 who lost to Arkansas by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +6.
TOTAL: Ole Miss +29 in 3 lines = Ole Miss +10.

SU beat Maryland by 29 who lost to Texas by 26 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +24
SU beat Maryland by 29 who lost to Wake Forest by 3 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 26 = Ole Miss +26
SU beat Maryland by 29 who beat UNC by 7 who lost to Tennessee by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Maryland by 29 who beat Virginia by 43 who lost to Vanderbilt by 33 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +6
TOTAL: Ole Miss +60 in 4 lines = Ole Miss +15

SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to SMU by 13 who lost to Arkansas by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +18
SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to Miami by 15 who lost to LSU by 24 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = Ole Miss +9
SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to Miami by 15 who lost to LSU by 24 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +34
SU beat Navy by 26 who lost to Miami by 15 who lost to Kentucky by 19 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +24
TOTAL: Ole Miss +85 over 4 lines = Ole Miss +21

SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Villanova by 20 who lost to Xavier by 28 who lost to Kentucky by 41 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +29
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Villanova by 20 who lost to Detroit by 34 who lost to Kentucky by 25
who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +19
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Cincinnati by 14 who lost to Houston by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +13
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Xavier by 3 who lost to Kentucky by 41 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Detroit by 19 who lost to Kentucky by 41 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who lost to Detroit by 19 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +46
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who beat Dayton by 8 who beat Wichita State by 5 who lost to Houston by 15 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +18
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +16
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Ole Miss +36
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +48
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss +33
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = Ole Miss +35
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +37
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Penn State by 46 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +37
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Detroit by 14 who lost to Kentucky by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +37
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Detroit by 14 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +67
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Oklahoma State by 6 who lost to Arkansas by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +22
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who lost to Oklahoma State by 6 who beat Houston by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +3
SU beat Holy Cross by 36 who lost to Marquette by 18 who beat Cincinnati by 1 who lost to Houston by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU + 2
TOTAL: Ole Miss +471 over 19 lines = Ole Miss +25

SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who lost to Texas by 26 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 22 = Ole Miss +29
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who lost to Wake Forest by 3 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +31
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who beat UNC by 7 who lost to Tennessee by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss by +21
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Maryland by 20 who beat Virginia by 43 who lost to Vanderbilt by 33 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat Richmond by 3 who lost to Florida State by 16 who lost to Memphis State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +22
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat George Washington by 2 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Kentucky by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +27
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat George Washington by 2 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +57
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat George Washington by 2 who lost to Wichita State by 21 who lost to Houston by 15 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +6
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat Pittsburgh by 8 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +36
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who beat Pittsburgh by 8 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = SU +11
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +20
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Tie
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +12
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = SU +3
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = SU +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Penn State by 18 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +3
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to USC by 36 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = Ole Miss +1
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to USC by 36 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +26
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Virginia Tech by 12 who lost to Wake Forest by 9 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +29
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to Virginia Tech by 12 who beat Virginia by 26 who lost to Vanderbilt by 33 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Ole Miss +8
SU beat West Virginia by 44 who lost to The Citadel by 6 who lost to Florida State by 38 who lost to Memphis State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +53
TOTAL: Ole Miss +281 in 23 lines = Ole Miss +12

SU beat Pittsburgh by 35 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +19
SU beat Pittsburgh by 35 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss -6
SU beat Pittsburgh by 35 who lost to TCU by 10 who lost to Arkansas by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss -6
TOTAL: SU + 7 in 3 lines = SU +2

SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +4
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = Ole Miss +24
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +36
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = Ole Miss +21
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = Ole Miss +23
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +25
SU beat Penn State by 2 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +27
TOTAL: Ole Miss +160 in 7 lines = Ole Miss +23

SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Houston by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +27
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Vanderbilt who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +7
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Chattanooga who lost to Mississippi by 58 = Ole Miss +5
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who tied Tennessee who lost to Ole Miss by 30 = SU +10
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Mississippi State by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 42 = SU +8
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Tulane by 12 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = SU +6
SU beat Colgate by 71 who lost to Penn State by 38 who beat Alabama by 7 who beat Memphis State by 7 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +1
TOTAL: SU +52 in 7 lines = SU +7

SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to George Washington by 4 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Kentucky by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = Ole Miss +31
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to George Washington by 4 who lost to Detroit by 32 who lost to Tulane by 25 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +61
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +12
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to LSU by 10 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = Ole Miss +13
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to TCU by 7 who lost to Arkansas by 3 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +13
SU beat Boston U. by 46 who lost to Kansas by 21 who lost to Oklahoma State by 14 who lost to Arkansas by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = SU +5
TOTAL: Ole Miss +101 in 6 lines = Ole Miss +17

SU beat UCLA by 28 who tied Purdue who beat Minnesota by 6 who beat Vanderbilt by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 33 = SU +15
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat California by 7 who beat Washington State by 14 who beat Houston by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +47
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat California by 7 who lost to Texas by 33 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +25
SU beat UCLA by 28 who lost to Washington by 16 who beat Washington State by 20 who beat Houston by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +30
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat Stanford by 42 who lost to Washington State by 17 who beat Houston by 14 who lost to Ole Miss by 16 = SU +51
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to UNC by 8 who lost to Tennessee by 22, who lost to Ole Miss by 30= Ole Miss +23
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to Wake Forest by 3 who lost to Tulane by 6 who lost to Ole Miss by 46 = Ole Miss +18
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to Mississippi Southern by 5 who lost to Memphis by 15 who lost to Ole Miss by 43 = Ole Miss +26
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat NC State by 9 who lost to Mississippi Southern by 5 who beat Chattanooga by 18 who lost to Ole Miss by 58 = Ole Miss +18
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat USC by 7 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who beat Ole Miss by 4 = SU +26
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat USC by 7 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to LSU by 22 who lost to Ole Miss by 21 = SU +1
SU beat UCLA by 28 who beat USC by 7 who beat Baylor by 9 who lost to Arkansas by 16 who lost to Ole Miss by28 = tie
TOTAL: SU +60 in 12 lines = SU +5

SU beat Texas by 9 who beat Arkansas by 1 who lost to Ole Miss by 28 = Ole Miss +18
TOTAL: Ole Miss +18 in one line = Ole Miss +18

Summary:
the Kansas line = Ole Miss +10
the Maryland line = Ole Miss +15
the Navy line = Ole Miss +21
the Holy Cross line = Ole Miss +25
the West Virginia line = Ole Miss +12
the Pittsburgh line = SU +2
the Penn State line = Ole Miss +23
the Colgate line = SU +7
the Boston U. line = Ole Miss +17
the UCLA line = SU +5
the Texas line: Ole Miss +18
TOTAL: Ole Miss +127 in 11 lines = Ole Miss +12
Looking at the individual lines, SU won 26 of them, (29.2%), Ole Miss 61 of them, (68.5%) with two tied.

The comparative scores, depending on how you look at them, tell us that Mississippi would have won by 12 points or that they would have won about 7 out of 10 games if they’d played that many.

What does this prove? Nothing. Except that the Rebels would certainly have proven a formidable opponent for SU fi they’d played in 1959. I highly doubt we would have beaten them by “20-30 points”, despite the fact that they were a segregated team. They may have limited their available talent pool due to the stupid attitudes that prevailed in their section of the country in those days but they recruited enough top white players to have a very powerful team anyway. They had 9 players drafted by the NFL after that season and six more who would have been on that team drafted in the next two years. Some names I remember: Larry Grantham, star linebacker for the Jet’s Super Bowl winners, Charlie Flowers who was the All-American fullback that year, ends Johnny Brewer and Bobby Crespino and d-back Bobby Franklin, who played for the Cleveland Browns when I grew up rooting for them in the 1960’s. George Blair, a defensive back for the Chargers, Bob Khayat, a kicker for the Redskins, Bookie Bolin, long-time guard for the Giants, Glynn Griffing, who would quarterback their almost as strong 1961-62 teams. Not listed is Jake Gibbs, their 1959-60 quarterback who opted for baseball and played catcher for the Yankees. SU’s 1959 team had four players drafted after the 1959 season but 14 more in the subsequent two years for a total of 18. Ernie Davis, of course, was one of them. All-American guard Roger Davis was another, along with John Brown and Al Bemiller, who had successful NFL careers in the lines of the browns and the Bills, respectively. The others are more famous to us than they were in the NFL. (John Mackey and Walt Sweeney were freshmen in 1959: they joined the varsity the next year.)

I don’t know what would have happened if Syracuse had played Mississippi in 1959 but I think we can thank Billy Cannon that we didn’t have to find out. It seems like one of things that’s better left the way it was.

That's all u got?

 

[Hoov50]

Regardless of anyone's opinion...Ole Miss needs to get an updated version of photoshop!

 

[SWC75]

How many words did you just type?

Actually I didn't just type them. I've been working on this one for a couple of days. (I'm the original Mr. "hunt and peck".)

 

[SWC75]

That's all u got?

I thought you might like to see the raw data, instead of just the final result.

 

[Bortukal]

You're not a person, are you SWC; you're really a NSA supercomputer that developed AI after a freak power surge.

 

[SWC75]

You're not a person, are you SWC; you're really a NSA supercomputer that developed AI after a freak power surge.

I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.

 

[PhatOrange]

God stuff

 

[SUFaninNJ]

So what you're saying is Mississippi was good, but Syracuse was a little bit better.

 

[All4SU]

As you said, beating the team that beat you is the "next best thing" to going undefeated. Being #2 is the next best thing to being #1. I am perfectly comfortable declaring Missississippippi the #2 team for 1959.

 

[longtimefan]

I don’t know what would have happened if Syracuse had played Mississippi in 1959 but I think we can thank Billy Cannon that we didn’t have to find out. It seems like one of things that’s better left the way it was.

If Cannon doesn't score on that punt return, SU and Ole Miss both end undefeated. As the Rebels would not have agreed to play the Orange, that's the way they would have ended. And an all-time sports dispute would have been the result.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

If JLH married me I wouldn't have time for this message board.

 

[alphaorange]

Why not figure out SOS and all that other computer stuff we use today and see how that works out? I appreciate all that you did but if you want to see how it would have worked out today, shouldn't we use today's methods? Seems like the raw data is available to do it...although, of course, it wouldn't have been nearly as much fun as what you did...

 

[SWC75]

Why not figure out SOS and all that other computer stuff we use today and see how that works out? I appreciate all that you did but if you want to see how it would have worked out today, shouldn't we use today's methods? Seems like the raw data is available to do it...although, of course, it wouldn't have been nearly as much fun as what you did...

You mean like this? http://www.jhowell.net/cf/cf1959.htm

Or this guy, who has Ole Miss #1: http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1959/CF_1959_Ranking_Best.html

There are many ways of looking at it. The ones I used are my favorites.

 

[SWC75]

If JLH married me I wouldn't have time for this message board.
View attachment 3649

And you wouldn't care.

 

[SWC75]

If Cannon doesn't score on that punt return, SU and Ole Miss both end undefeated. As the Rebels would not have agreed to play the Orange, that's the way they would have ended. And an all-time sports dispute would have been the result.

They've had been voted #1 and we would be #2. Book it.

 

[OttosBestFriend]

You mean like this? http://www.jhowell.net/cf/cf1959.htm

Or this guy, who has Ole Miss #1: http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/cfr/cfr/output/1959/CF_1959_Ranking_Best.html

There are many ways of looking at it. The ones I used are my favorites.

In typical SEC fashion, Mississippi somehow avoided playing Georgia, Auburn, Alabama AND Georgia Tech in 1959.

All were considered "Top 20" teams by both power rankings, all were in the SEC, and all were mysteriously off the Ol' Miss schedule.

I realize there wasn't an actual conspiracy back then... But it has bugged me in recent years when these SEC teams up for BCS bids have avoided playing the top teams in their own conferences.

Take a look at Alabama's conference schedule in 2013 - No Florida OR Georgia. (http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-13/sec/2013-alabama-crimson-tide-football-schedule.php)

Same as 2012 except they did end up playing a close one vs. Georgia in the SEC title game. (http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-12/sec/2012-alabama-crimson-tide-football-schedule.php)

This has NOT been a coincidence.

 

[Madbiker]

So why did they match up SU with Texas in a bowl game instead of Mississippi? Was it due to segregation?

 

[SWC75]

So why did they match up SU with Texas in a bowl game instead of Mississippi? Was it due to segregation?

Pittsburgh had played in the Sugar Bowl in 1955 but it was controversial and so the Sugar Bowl didn't have a team with black players in it until Syracuse on 1/1/65. That left SU's choice between the Orange Bowl, where they would have faced a mediocre Missouri team or the Cotton Bowl where they would face Texas, which was actually undefeated and ranked #2 at the time the decision was made. They didn't wait until the end of the season back then. The Longhorns then got upset by TCU and dropped to #4 in the final poll, (which was before the bowls back then), with Mississippi and LSU #2-3.