The ACC needs to figure out who it wants to be when it grows up.

[Guinness]

Right now (imo) it is trying to be both a basketball conference and a football conference. Given the make up of the schools and the two factions within the ACC I don't believe they can ever fully appease both sides. Nor do I believe they can compete in the long run with the B10 or the SEC.

So if I were king for a day I would introduce the GOR and tell the schools that this was the day they all decide if they are in or out. Anyone who wanted to sign on great and anyone who did not that we will miss you and wish you well on your way out the door.

Basically let FSU, Clemson and any other football school go on their way to what ever pasture they find greener. Then take UVA, UNC, GT, Wake, Duke, SU, Pitt, NC State, BC and VT if it chooses to stay and add UL, UC and UConn.

Not everyone can be the big dog. Not everyone can be the B10 or the SEC. What the ACC could be is a fair to decent football league that is a notch below the big 4 but a notch or two ahead of the BE and below. While at the same time being the premiere basketball and lacrosse conference in the country.

We would still have a seat at the table (albeit not as big as the B10 or SEC). We would have a fair to middling tv contract and more importantly we would have a group of similar schools committed to each other with a shared conference vision.

TLDR: FSU and Clemson. Time to stuff or get off the pot.

 

[dasher]

what would that accomplish besides making you feel good? The idea is to keep this thing together long enough to make it work. The ACC has had a grand total of one school leave. The Big 12, which people seem to think ACC schools will be running to, have lost Nebraska and Mizzou. Keep the schools in place.

 

[Guinness]

what would that accomplish besides making you feel good? The idea is to keep this thing together long enough to make it work. The ACC has had a grand total of one school leave. The Big 12, which people seem to think ACC schools will be running to, have lost Nebraska and Mizzou. Keep the schools in place.

It might accomplish actually keeping the thing together. They longer they try to appease two factions the closer the thing comes to blowing up.

 

[PhatOrange]

what would that accomplish besides making you feel good? The idea is to keep this thing together long enough to make it work. The ACC has had a grand total of one school leave. The Big 12, which people seem to think ACC schools will be running to, have lost Nebraska and Mizzou. Keep the schools in place.

And Colorado and Texas A&m

 

[xc84]

It might accomplish actually keeping the thing together. They longer they try to appease two factions the closer the thing comes to blowing up.

What does that mean? The ACC has both sports. It's not like the BE where there are schools that don't have a football program. Every ACC school would love it if their football team was great. Every ACC school wants a strong football league. It benefits all of them.

 

[kingottoiii]

The ACC is a BBall conference that plays FB for ca$h so it can support its BBall and Olympic sports. If you lose all your FB schools then you get a weak TV contract. If the gap in the ACC TV $ and the B1G/SEC TV $ becomes too big, then a school would be irresponsible not to leave despite being a BBall school. IMO the following schools are fine being #5 in FB as long as the TV $ gap isn't too big:

SU, BC, Pitt, UVA, VT, NC St, UNC, Duke, Wake, Clemson, GA Tech, Miami

As long as those 12 stick together, the ACC will be fine and there should be enough $ to keep them all happy. FSU is the only school that really would have an issue IMO. If FSU and Louisville ended up in the B12 but the rest of the ACC remained, I think everyone would be happy.

As to ACC expansion take a look at Louisville and Cincy then look at the ACC schools above. No way those two belong with the rest of those schools. Leave them out. The ACC would be fine with as little as 12 teams. If you are forced to fill for vacancies, I rather see a hybrid of like minded schools. Again like you said decide what you are. If that decision is strong academics and BBall, then why in the hell would you even think of UL or Cincy? Go get UConn, Army (FB only), Navy (FB), GTown (BBall), Nova (BBall or even FB). Those schools fit. Adding UL or Cincy will not make the ACC any stronger in FB. So why not add the others instead? Take UConn for now. If other schools leave then go hybrid.

 

[All4SU]

what would that accomplish besides making you feel good? The idea is to keep this thing together long enough to make it work. The ACC has had a grand total of one school leave. The Big 12, which people seem to think ACC schools will be running to, have lost Nebraska and Mizzou. Keep the schools in place.

...and Colorado...and Texas A&M...

 

[dasher]

The ACC is a BBall conference that plays FB for ca$h so it can support its BBall and Olympic sports. If you lose all your FB schools then you get a weak TV contract. If the gap in the ACC TV $ and the B1G/SEC TV $ becomes too big, then a school would be irresponsible not to leave despite being a BBall school. IMO the following schools are fine being #5 in FB as long as the TV $ gap isn't too big:

SU, BC, Pitt, UVA, VT, NC St, UNC, Duke, Wake, Clemson, GA Tech, Miami

As long as those 12 stick together, the ACC will be fine and there should be enough $ to keep them all happy. FSU is the only school that really would have an issue IMO. If FSU and Louisville ended up in the B12 but the rest of the ACC remained, I think everyone would be happy.

As to ACC expansion take a look at Louisville and Cincy then look at the ACC schools above. No way those two belong with the rest of those schools. Leave them out. The ACC would be fine with as little as 12 teams. If you are forced to fill for vacancies, I rather see a hybrid of like minded schools. Again like you said decide what you are. If that decision is strong academics and BBall, then why in the hell would you even think of UL or Cincy? Go get UConn, Army (FB only), Navy (FB), GTown (BBall), Nova (BBall or even FB). Those schools fit. Adding UL or Cincy will not make the ACC any stronger in FB. So why not add the others instead? Take UConn for now. If other schools leave then go hybrid.

Never go hybrid. That is the one thing that has proven to fail.

 

[kingottoiii]

Never go hybrid. That is the one thing that has proven to fail.

The Big East failed because 1. it had a bunch of schools with different agendas, 2. it lost all of its brand schools, and 3. it had poor leadership. If the ACC's agenda is to be a top notch academic, BBall, and Olympic sport conference then why would a hybrid be an issue? If the schools are all committed to each other and that goal it will be fine. That was never the case in the BE where schools were together out of necessity.

----EDIT----

I wanted to add

Why do UL and Cincy want to be in the ACC? Is it because the ACC has like minded schools both on and off the field? Are the athletic programs similar? Are the academics similar? Is the make up of the school similar? Do they share similar goals on and off the field? Is it because of location? Or is it for $? And why would GTown and Nova want to be in the ACC? The more teams you have in your conference out of necessity, the more likely your conference will fail.

 

[All4SU]

The Big East failed because 1. it had a bunch of schools with different agendas, 2. it lost all of its brand schools, and 3. it had poor leadership. If the ACC's agenda is to be a top notch academic, BBall, and Olympic sport conference then why would a hybrid be an issue? If the schools are all committed to each other and that goal it will be fine. That was never the case in the BE where schools were together out of necessity.

No, no a thousand times no. The BE failed because it failed to project a singular brand identity. Everyone, schools, fans, media, fans of other conferences, all saw the league as something different. The fractioned amalgam of schools was confusing and difficult to establish true rivalries. Even now, as we depart for the ACC, basketball fans think of the BE as something different than FB fans. The conference, by definition, made it possible for people to be fans of one part of the conference without investing in the other parts of the conference. People were either FB fans or basketball fans. Just imagine if we had a heated rival in football like Georgetown in Bball.

There is a reason why other conferences don't do partials. It's a bad idea.

 

[kingottoiii]

No, no a thousand times no. The BE failed because it failed to project a singular brand identity. Everyone, schools, fans, media, fans of other conferences, all saw the league as something different. The fractioned amalgam of schools was confusing and difficult to establish true rivalries. Even now, as we depart for the ACC, basketball fans think of the BE as something different than FB fans. The conference, by definition, made it possible for people to be fans of one part of the conference without investing in the other parts of the conference. People were either FB fans or basketball fans. Just imagine if we had a heated rival in football like Georgetown in Bball.

There is a reason why other conferences don't do partials. It's a bad idea.

You just reaffirmed exactly what I said. They had no brand identity. They had a bunch of schools together that did not fit. The ACC does have an identity. If they add hybrid schools those schools will fit that brand. So how is that an issue? The ACC has established itself, there is nothing to be confused about. Where would there be fragmentation?

I only think the ACC should go hybrid as a last result. For now add UConn. If the ACC loses more teams, then they will be forced to take schools who do not fit the brand or schools who do fit the brand. I rather that be the schools that fit, even if it is hybrid. Like you said there were FB schools and BBall schools in the Big East that caused friction. If the ACC loses more members, those will be FB schools that leave. All that will be left will be BBall schools that happen to play FB. So IMO that would work with the hybrid BBall schools.

If the ACC loses more members it will be a BBall conference that plays FB. Shouldn't they want to add BBall schools even if hybrids? Wouldn't adding FB schools cause MORE friction as they would always have a different agenda, even though they are in for all sports?

 

[Opus]

I am a football fan first. I want 'Cuse to play FSU and Clemson. (I thought I was on the bball board when I first started reading this thread) What evs.

 

[kingottoiii]

I am a football fan first. I want 'Cuse to play FSU and Clemson. (I thought I was on the bball board when I first started reading this thread) What evs.

I am a FB fan first as well. I too want to play FSU and Clemson. But if they left the ACC, I rather play Army/Navy in FB and Nova/GTown in BBall than play Louisville in Cincy in both. At that point we are a G5 either way so might as well play teams you care about instead of pretending to keep the FB charade going.

 

[Cuseman78]

I am a FB fan first as well. I too want to play FSU and Clemson. But if they left the ACC, I rather play Army/Navy in FB and Nova/GTown in BBall than play Louisville in Cincy in both. At that point we are a G5 either way so might as well play teams you care about instead of pretending to keep the FB charade going.

HELL to the NO. Completely contradictory. If you are truly a football fan first, how in the world do you want to play Navy instead of a school like Louisville, who has a Grade A athletic department?

Don't get me wrong, I love being aligned with academic schools, but unless you want your school to be relegated to playing football with a bunch of other private schools in what would essentially be the equivalent of a mid-major, you need a few big factories like FSU or Clemson in your conference. Louisville has the potential to be that type of school.

The academics need to take a back seat on this one. No one is asking to add 4 of these types of schools, but at this moment, its essential that the ACC at least looks like they are serious about remaining a football conference. If the vote does in fact go Lville's way tomorrow, I will feel much better about things and holding everybody else in place. Louisville is the right move.

 

[Opus]

I am a FB fan first as well. I too want to play FSU and Clemson. But if they left the ACC, I rather play Army/Navy in FB and Nova/GTown in BBall than play Louisville in Cincy in both. At that point we are a G5 either way so might as well play teams you care about instead of pretending to keep the FB charade going.

We will have to agree to disagree. Want the best football competition that we can get. Louisville > Army/Navy.

 

[kingottoiii]

HELL to the NO. Completely contradictory. If you are truly a football fan first, how in the world do you want to play Navy instead of a school like Louisville, who has a Grade A athletic department?

It is moot now but my point was should the ACC lose its FB schools, then we would be a mid major. UL would not change that. It would be over. So might as well make everything else as good as possible instead of being in denial.

 

[All4SU]

You just reaffirmed exactly what I said. They had no brand identity. They had a bunch of schools together that did not fit. The ACC does have an identity. If they add hybrid schools those schools will fit that brand. So how is that an issue? The ACC has established itself, there is nothing to be confused about. Where would there be fragmentation?

I only think the ACC should go hybrid as a last result. For now add UConn. If the ACC loses more teams, then they will be forced to take schools who do not fit the brand or schools who do fit the brand. I rather that be the schools that fit, even if it is hybrid. Like you said there were FB schools and BBall schools in the Big East that caused friction. If the ACC loses more members, those will be FB schools that leave. All that will be left will be BBall schools that happen to play FB. So IMO that would work with the hybrid BBall schools.

If the ACC loses more members it will be a BBall conference that plays FB. Shouldn't they want to add BBall schools even if hybrids? Wouldn't adding FB schools cause MORE friction as they would always have a different agenda, even though they are in for all sports?

As soon as you have to explain -- "Some play this, some don't..." you have lost people. Who plays football in the SEC? Who plays basketball in the SEC? Who plays basketball in the Pac12? Who plays football in the Pac12? Those are conferences. If you want another hodge podge of partials, you are not a conference.

 

[kingottoiii]

As soon as you have to explain -- "Some play this, some don't..." you have lost people. Who plays football in the SEC? Who plays basketball in the SEC? Who plays basketball in the Pac12? Who plays football in the Pac12? Those are conferences. If you want another hodge podge of partials, you are not a conference.

I agree. My point is if the ACC loses its FB schools, then it is no longer a real conference so what does it matter? Why pretend to be a big boy?

 

[Cusefan95]

I agree. My point is if the ACC loses its FB schools, then it is no longer a real conference so what does it matter? Why pretend to be a big boy?

...because your solution is to play little boy football and hope somehow hoops can hold a league together. I've seen that movie already and know how it turns out - its not pretty. The ACC needs to do everything possible to hold football together, because otherwise the league will no longer exist. Or it'll turn into some clustf**k like the Big East is doing as we speak.

 

[SmilinBob]

It does seem to be a conundrum unless the ACC is for the ACC's best well being, then it will work out. The basketball schools had more say in the big east and there was a huge division but if the ACC can figure out what their long term goals are, this can be one hell of a conference. I really believe the addition of basketball schools could work as long as it is a quality school that can play multiple sports...like a Georgetown. I agree that once the conference is too big, you do start to lose your identity and some of you rivals as well. The SEC sees this when it comes to Bama/Georgia or Bama/Florida as they rotate and don't play each other nearly enough. The funny thing is that the SEC knows how to make this work since it also makes for one fewer lose by one of those teams.

 

[Crusty]

I can't imagine that the ACC will allow any other partial members. I hope they don't. BB is different than FB anyway as the path to the NCAA is open to everyone.

 

[All4SU]

I want to be the Pac12.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Right now (imo) it is trying to be both a basketball conference and a football conference. Given the make up of the schools and the two factions within the ACC I don't believe they can ever fully appease both sides. Nor do I believe they can compete in the long run with the B10 or the SEC.

So if I were king for a day I would introduce the GOR and tell the schools that this was the day they all decide if they are in or out. Anyone who wanted to sign on great and anyone who did not that we will miss you and wish you well on your way out the door.

Basically let FSU, Clemson and any other football school go on their way to what ever pasture they find greener. Then take UVA, UNC, GT, Wake, Duke, SU, Pitt, NC State, BC and VT if it chooses to stay and add UL, UC and UConn.

Not everyone can be the big dog. Not everyone can be the B10 or the SEC. What the ACC could be is a fair to decent football league that is a notch below the big 4 but a notch or two ahead of the BE and below. While at the same time being the premiere basketball and lacrosse conference in the country.

We would still have a seat at the table (albeit not as big as the B10 or SEC). We would have a fair to middling tv contract and more importantly we would have a group of similar schools committed to each other with a shared conference vision.

TLDR: FSU and Clemson. Time to stuff or get off the pot.

I think this is misguided. Doesn't the Big 10 face the same issue? They are mostly football schools, with some might-as-well-be Hoops-only, like Indiana and Iowa, who have had their moments in basketball but not in football, for the most part.

They also have some football schools (e.g. Penn State) that might as well not have a hoops team. And they have some bottom dwellers who don't matter at all, except once in a blue moon - Northwestern, Minnesota, and soon Rutgers. Their membership is all over the place and they can't stop making money.

Then look at the SEC, yes, it's a football conference, but what are Vandy and Kentucky doing in there?

Every conference has a bit of a split personality, depending upon which schools are successful in which sports.

 

[Guinness]

I think this is misguided. Doesn't the Big 10 face the same issue? They are mostly football schools, with some might-as-well-be Hoops-only, like Indiana and Iowa, who have had their moments in basketball but not in football, for the most part.

They also have some football schools (e.g. Penn State) that might as well not have a hoops team. And they have some bottom dwellers who don't matter at all, except once in a blue moon - Northwestern, Minnesota, and soon Rutgers. Their membership is all over the place and they can't stop making money.

Then look at the SEC, yes, it's a football conference, but what are Vandy and Kentucky doing in there?

Every conference has a bit of a split personality, depending upon which schools are successful in which sports.

The B10 doesn't face this issue because their schools have all bought into the same vision. In the ACC the different factions have different visions for the conference.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The B10 doesn't face this issue because their schools have all bought into the same vision. In the ACC the different factions have different visions for the conference.

Every school is motivated by where that school can compete. Kentucky is happy being in the SEC, because although they'll never win the football title, they own hoops. Does that make Kentucky an undesirable team to have in your league? I don't think so.

If other leagues can find that balance among their own members, some of whom excel in one sport and not the other, there's no reason the ACC can't as well.