The athleticism is better, but the defense still stinks.

[Cusefan0307]

For the record our defense was better the first two seasons of the Buddy/Joe backcourt.

129th in adjusted defensive efficiency on KP this year.

70.3ppg against which is worse than all but last year over the past 6 seasons.

And our 3 point defense is worse than last season.

I know some of it is being young, but if this isn't and indictment of full time zone as the shooting gets better I am not sure what is.

 

[swish7]

UM abused us from the FT area and closer. I understand that is a weakness of the zone, but I think Jesse is so worried about staying out of foul trouble that he is often doing nothing but occupying space at the bottom of the zone. Need to learn how to play tough D without fouling.

UM also abused us from GMac country. I understand we want teams to shoot from there. However, why can we not challenge shooters in our area of the zone? The little pitter patter approach we take while someone shoots these long free throws is not effective at challenging their shot. Need to learn how to make a shot difficult for a shooter. Play your area of the zone like man.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

For the record our defense was better the first two seasons of the Buddy/Joe backcourt.

129th in adjusted defensive efficiency on KP this year.

70.3ppg against which is worse than all but last year over the past 6 seasons.

And our 3 point defense is worse than last season.

I know some of it is being young, but if this isn't and indictment of full time zone as the shooting gets better I am not sure what is.

Limiting three-point attempts is a better indicator of perimeter defense than how well or poorly a team shoots from deep, because in most cases the defender is so far away from the shooter that there is little they can do to disrupt the shot once the shooter goes up (compared to two-point shots).

The zone has always been bad at limiting threes but it's been especially bad the last several years:

2015: 37.4% of all opponent shots were threes (277th in D1)
2016: 39.7% (309th)
2017: 42.8% (328th)
2018: 44.5% (338th)
2019: 48.1% (347th)
2020: 47.9% (350th)
2021: 44.2% (330th)
2022: 48.7% (357th)
2023: 46.2% (352nd)

Throughout the 2000s we were in the 35-40% range, even after we switched to zone being the full-time D. Basically, as college teams have followed the NBA in terms of being more three-happy than they were before Steph Curry and the Warriors changed everything, the Orange have failed to keep up even by the low standards of the 2-3.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Limiting three-point attempts is a better indicator of perimeter defense than how well or poorly a team shoots from deep, because in most cases the defender is so far away from the shooter that there is little they can do to disrupt the shot once the shooter goes up (compared to two-point shots).

The zone has always been bad at limiting threes but it's been especially bad the last several years:

2015: 37.4% of all opponent shots were threes (277th in D1)
2016: 39.7% (309th)
2017: 42.8% (328th)
2018: 44.5% (338th)
2019: 48.1% (347th)
2020: 47.9% (350th)
2021: 44.2% (330th)
2022: 48.7% (357th)
2023: 46.2% (352nd)

Throughout the 2000s we were in the 35-40% range, even after we switched to zone being the full-time D. Basically, as college teams have followed the NBA in terms of being more three-happy than they were before Steph Curry and the Warriors changed everything, the Orange have failed to keep up even by the low standards of the 2-3.

I might be mistaken but I always thought the point of the zone (at least the way Boeheim runs it) is to get teams to take MORE threes than they ordinarily would and in particular get guys who normally DONT shoot many of them to shoot a lot of them. Which is why we would periodically get some end-of-bencher who goes of for 7-10 against us.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The zone was great when teams shot in the high 20% range as they did in the early 2010’s, but unfortunately that percentage has risen to the point where we are now allowing over 50efg%.

There used to be few coaches who had good game plans against us. Our worst matchups used to be Pitt, Louisville, and Villanova. Everyone else we mostly shut down. Now everybody seems to have a great zone offense. Coaches have evolved and become more intelligent with their game plans and taken advantage of the increase in shooting talent.

 

[djorange1989]

The zone was great when teams shot in the high 20% range as they did in the early 2010’s, but unfortunately that percentage has risen to the point where we are now allowing over 50efg%.

There used to be few coaches who had good game plans against us. Our worst matchups used to be Pitt, Louisville, and Villanova. Everyone else we mostly shut down. Now everybody seems to have a great zone offense. Coaches have evolved and become more intelligent with their game plans and taken advantage of the increase in shooting talent.

Shooters have become much more effective and we are recruiting at a lower level now. It is a really bad combo

 

[Cusefan0307]

Shooters have become much more effective and we are recruiting at a lower level now. It is a really bad combo

I don’t think recruiting is necessarily the answer here. On offense sure. The freshmen we have this year are all ACC level athletes and more athletic than the guys they replaced yet the defense still stinks!

We seem to regularly get shredded against mid majors. If anything the zone tends to even things out against less talented teams that have good shooters.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

UM abused us from the FT area and closer. I understand that is a weakness of the zone, but I think Jesse is so worried about staying out of foul trouble that he is often doing nothing but occupying space at the bottom of the zone. Need to learn how to play tough D without fouling.

UM also abused us from GMac country. I understand we want teams to shoot from there. However, why can we not challenge shooters in our area of the zone? The little pitter patter approach we take while someone shoots these long free throws is not effective at challenging their shot. Need to learn how to make a shot difficult for a shooter. Play your area of the zone like man.

Jesse used to block everything in there. He has lost it and needs to find it asap!!

 

[M2MPrinciples]

I might be mistaken but I always thought the point of the zone (at least the way Boeheim runs it) is to get teams to take MORE threes than they ordinarily would and in particular get guys who normally DONT shoot many of them to shoot a lot of them. Which is why we would periodically get some end-of-bencher who goes of for 7-10 against us.

Yes, there are some teams that you're content to let chuck and chuck because you don't want their bigs to beat you, or just because they stink from three so you want to dare them to beat you that way. But way more teams are shooting better from deep than they did 8-9 years ago, so you have to adjust.

 

[swish7]

Jesse used to block everything in there. He has lost it and needs to find it asap!!

I will take a challenge and a box out at this point.

 

[cuseincincy]

For the record our defense was better the first two seasons of the Buddy/Joe backcourt.

129th in adjusted defensive efficiency on KP this year.

70.3ppg against which is worse than all but last year over the past 6 seasons.

And our 3 point defense is worse than last season.

I know some of it is being young, but if this isn't and indictment of full time zone as the shooting gets better I am not sure what is.

ACC Defensive Rankings:

Blocks - 1st
Steals - 2nd
FG% - 6th

"Stinks" is a lousy opinion, in my opinion.

 

[721Comstock]

I might be mistaken but I always thought the point of the zone (at least the way Boeheim runs it) is to get teams to take MORE threes than they ordinarily would and in particular get guys who normally DONT shoot many of them to shoot a lot of them. Which is why we would periodically get some end-of-bencher who goes of for 7-10 against us.

Yeah, THIS.

It was never about - don't let teams attempt shots from 3.

It was always about - make teams settle for less-than-ideal shots from 3.

In theory, they'd shoot poorly, and that would benefit us, and we'd take the W.
Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end...

The problem is twofold:
1 - pretty much every team has a bunch of Steph Curry wannabes who can hit 3's from 28' now.
Especially when left wiiiide open.
2 - we've had the least athletic guards and wings in modern Cuse history to play our 2-3 zone.

As has been stated - that's a really bad combo.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yes, there are some teams that you're content to let chuck and chuck because you don't want their bigs to beat you, or just because they stink from three so you want to dare them to beat you that way. But way more teams are shooting better from deep than they did 8-9 years ago, so you have to adjust.

I get that it’s been very poor lately and a lot of players are more efficient, but in always thought traditionally that getting teams to shoot a lot of threes was a feature, not a big wrt the zone.

 

[wiCuse]

My issue is that the game plan allows certain players to take wide open 3's. This has always been the case. Today a 28% 3 point shooter can hit a wide open shot. That is how the game has evolved along with the range. 10+ years ago you only had a few guys taking 3's on every team. The 28% shooter wasn't very good open or guarded.

Jesse also looks gassed. He isn't covering the middle at all. Very poor D last night.

 

[Cuse181]

My issue is that the game plan allows certain players to take wide open 3's. This has always been the case. Today a 28% 3 point shooter can hit a wide open shot. That is how the game has evolved along with the range. 10+ years ago you only had a few guys taking 3's on every team. The 28% shooter wasn't very good open or guarded.

Jesse also looks gassed. He isn't covering the middle at all. Very poor D last night.

That’s not how stats work lol

 

[Forza Azzurri]

For the record our defense was better the first two seasons of the Buddy/Joe backcourt.

129th in adjusted defensive efficiency on KP this year.

70.3ppg against which is worse than all but last year over the past 6 seasons.

And our 3 point defense is worse than last season.

I know some of it is being young, but if this isn't and indictment of full time zone as the shooting gets better I am not sure what is.

Do you have any statistics to support your assertion that the shooting is getting better?

I know that it is so commonly stated on this board that it has become accepted as fact but I have yet to see anyone produce any statistics that actually show that overall three point shooting is getting better.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yeah, THIS.

It was never about - don't let teams attempt shots from 3.

It was always about - make teams settle for less-than-ideal shots from 3.

In theory, they'd shoot poorly, and that would benefit us, and we'd take the W.
Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end...

The problem is twofold:
1 - pretty much every team has a bunch of Steph Curry wannabes who can hit 3's from 28' now.
Especially when left wiiiide open.
2 - we've had the least athletic guards and wings in modern Cuse history to play our 2-3 zone.

As has been stated - that's a really bad combo.

Yeah a wide open three is practically a layup for a replacement level P5 player now.

Plus our team is a bunch of freshmen who don’t know their roles or upperclassmen who are…. let’s just say a little wanting in the quickness department.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

My issue is that the game plan allows certain players to take wide open 3's. This has always been the case. Today a 28% 3 point shooter can hit a wide open shot. That is how the game has evolved along with the range. 10+ years ago you only had a few guys taking 3's on every team. The 28% shooter wasn't very good open or guarded.

Jesse also looks gassed. He isn't covering the middle at all. Very poor D last night.

So, let me get this straight...

a 28% 3 point shooter today is a better shooter than a 28% three point shooter 10+ years ago...

This one you are going to have to elaborate on...

 

[HOFCeluck]

So, let me get this straight...

a 28% 3 point shooter today is a better shooter than a 28% three point shooter 10+ years ago...

This one you are going to have to elaborate on...

From the gut, two ideas.

1. The three point line is further back now than it was.

2. The more threes you take, the more likely your percentage is gonna go down. So a guy who’s shooting 28% on four attempts a game in 2012 isn’t as good as a guy shooting that percentage on 8-9 attempts a game.

 

[grepal]

For the record our defense was better the first two seasons of the Buddy/Joe backcourt.

129th in adjusted defensive efficiency on KP this year.

70.3ppg against which is worse than all but last year over the past 6 seasons.

And our 3 point defense is worse than last season.

I know some of it is being young, but if this isn't and indictment of full time zone as the shooting gets better I am not sure what is.

A lot of it's bring younger. That part of your post makes sense to me

 

[Cusefan0307]

Do you have any statistics to support your assertion that the shooting is getting better?

I know that it is so commonly stated on this board that it has become accepted as fact but I have yet to see anyone produce any statistics that actually show that overall three point shooting is getting better.

Since we mostly went full time zone in 96 the amount of makes per game has increased from 5.8 to 7.5 and the amount of attempts have gone from 17.1 to 22 this year.

We have gone from allowing 6 makes on 19 attempts a game to 10 makes on 29 attempts a game.

Percentage wise that doesn’t seem terrible, but it’s decreased our efg% slowly over time.

Our peak zone(2013) allowed 6 makes on 21 attempts.

Maybe I’m not reading it right, but it certainly seems
like coaches are allowing more guys to fire away.

This is all info readily available on cbb reference.com.

 

[AZOrange]

So, let me get this straight...

a 28% 3 point shooter today is a better shooter than a 28% three point shooter 10+ years ago...

This one you are going to have to elaborate on...

Lies, damn lies and statistics

 

[wiCuse]

So, let me get this straight...

a 28% 3 point shooter today is a better shooter than a 28% three point shooter 10+ years ago...

This one you are going to have to elaborate on...

I never said that. We give up a lot of open looks. My bigger issue is when we intentionally let someone shoot a wide open shot. The percentages increase because most guys are better shooters today. JB could get away with this philosophy years ago.

 

[Knicks411]

So, let me get this straight...

a 28% 3 point shooter today is a better shooter than a 28% three point shooter 10+ years ago...

This one you are going to have to elaborate on...

I actually kinda think you can talk yourself into that kind of making some sense (maybe not in the context here)

As the 3 becomes more prevalent, there will be more 3's taken (duh) and some of them will almost have to be more difficult (off the dribble, further back, etc). Even moreso since the line is over 2 feet further back than 2008. So you could probably convince me a 28% shooter on today's diet of 3 point looks is a better shooter than a guy who shot 28% 10-15 years on a relatively easier selection of shots. IE, he would shoot better than 28% on a 2008 shot distribution.

Since we mostly went full time zone in 96 the amount of makes per game has increased from 5.8 to 7.5 and the amount of attempts have gone from 17.1 to 22 this year.

We have gone from allowing 6 makes on 19 attempts a game to 10 makes on 29 attempts a game.

Percentage wise that doesn’t seem terrible, but it’s decreased our efg% slowly over time.

Our peak zone(2013) allowed 6 makes on 21 attempts.

Maybe I’m not reading it right, but it certainly seems
like coaches are allowing more guys to fire away.

This is all info readily available on cbb reference.com.

This is kind of related to what I am saying as well. If the % stays the same as the # of attempts goes up, that kinda does mean the shooting is better.

Also defensive fg% doesn't mean quite as much when you let the other team get a ton Oreb as well

 

[Forza Azzurri]

From the gut, two ideas.

1. The three point line is further back now than it was.

2. The more threes you take, the more likely your percentage is gonna go down. So a guy who’s shooting 28% on four attempts a game in 2012 isn’t as good as a guy shooting that percentage on 8-9 attempts a game.

#1 makes sense and the data supports it.

#2, someone would need to provide data to support this one.