SWC75
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Jim Boeheim has now tied Adolph Rupp for total victories with 876. Jim dismissed any comparisons but we are free to make them.
My primary source of information for this is the ESPN College Basketball Encyclopedia. One of the things in it is the Premo-Poretta Poll, which was an attempt to fill in the gap of the pre-NCAA tournament era in determining national champions. The Helms Foundation did this years ago, of course but their selections were made by one man, Phil Schroeder, using the much more limited fund of information available at that time. And Schroeder didn’t list a top 25, and Premo and Poretta do. They extended their list to the 1947-48 season because the AP basketball poll started the next year. That means that they over-lap with the early winners of the NCAA tournament. They don’t automatically pick the NCAA- or the NIT- champion as #1. They just view those tournaments as part of the evidence to be considered.
Another thing the modern fans needs to know is that the NIT predated the NCAA tournament. It was played in Madison Square Garden while the early NCAAs were played in gymnasiums on college campuses. Many teams preferred to go to New York and the NIT title was considered to have equal or even greater prestige, probably until the point shaving scandals of the early 50’s, which were centered on games played in New York.
The early NCAA and NIT tournaments were much smaller than they are now. Both started out as 8 team tournaments with only three wins needed to be the champion. The NCAA expanded to 16 teams in 1951, to 24 in 1953. Rupp never had to win more than four games to win a national championship.
The SEC has always been a great football conference but it hasn’t always been a strong basketball conference. Basketball used to be thought of in the strong football schools and something to keep the players in shape during the winter (as it was here before Fred Lewis). In Rupp’s era, (1931-72, using the second year to designate the season: his last was 1971-72), Kentucky won 25 conference, (the first two years it was the Southern Conference, then the SEC teams seceded to form their own conference) titles in 42 years. And one year, 1943-44 there was no SEC season, even though some teams played, due to the war. In another, the program was given the “death penalty” due to point shaving and there was no Kentucky season so it’s really 25 of 40, (.625). There were 66 SC/SEC teams listed in the Premo-Poretta and then AP/UPI rankings in those 42 years and 30 of them are Kentucky, (Vanderbilt and Mississippi State are tied for second with 6 each). There were four years when there was no ranked SEC team and a dozen years when the only one was Kentucky. There was an SEC tournament from 1933-52 and the Wildcats won it 13 times in 20 years. (It was ended due to the point-shaving scandal and did not return until 1979.)
Rupp’s teams won four NCAA tournaments: in 1948, 1949, 1951 and 1950. They also won the 1946 NIT at that time when the NIT champion might actually have been the best team in the country. The Helms foundation retroactively award them the 1933 title. Premo-Poretta has them as the #1 in 1934 and also in 1947, when they were defeated in the NIT finals by Utah, 44-49. Their team from 1946-49 was the original “Fab 5”, (and they were called that). Their starting line-up consisted of Alex Groza, (Lou’s brother), Cliff Barker, Ralph Beard, Wallace “Wah Wah” Jones and Dale Barnstable. Together they won 112 games in four years. They won the 1946 NIT, were the Premo-Poretta champs in the last year of that poll and then won the NCAA tournament as juniors and seniors. That starting five also became the starting five of the 1948 US Olympic team and won the Gold Medal as a unit. The NBA created the Indianapolis Olympians just to showcase these players.
Unfortunately they were also shaving points, a fact which came out during the scandals of 1951. This prompted an investigation of the Kentucky basketball program which found violations, (primarily periodic $50 payments being made to players by boosters) and gave them the “death penalty” for the 1953 season, although that term was not used. There had been pressure to fire Rupp or force him to resign but the University resisted doing that and thus got the severe punishment.
The team stayed together and practiced all year, even putting on a series of intra-squad exhibitions to retain fan interest. They returned to the court for the 1954 season and produced a 25-0 record and #1 national ranking. But three starters had graduated the previous spring, (Cliff Hagan, Frank Ramsey and Lou Tsioropoulis) and then entered graduate school so they could play in the new season. The NCAA had at first assured Kentucky that the players were eligible but then reversed themselves and declared the players could not compete in the NCAA tournament.
Without his stars, Rupp made the decision, over the protests of his squad to not compete in the tournament, which was won by LaSalle, a team Kentucky had beaten during the season.
Rupp returned to the NCAA throne room in 1958 with a group called the “Fiddlin’ Five”. He said before the season “We’ve got a bunch of barnyard fiddlers with a Carnegie Hall schedule” but his team came together after 6 losses to win the title over Elgin Baylor and Seattle, 84-72. He would be back in the title game in the famous 1966 games which Kentucky, with 5 white starters, lost to Texas Western, with 5 black starters.
Rupp is thus credited with winning the NCAA tournament four times but with the 1946 NIT, the 1933 Helms title, the 1933 and 1947 Premo-Poretta titles and the undefeated #1 ranked reason of 1954, he could be credited with 9 “national championships”. His all=time record is 876 wins and 190 losses, a winning percentage of .822.
Jim Boeheim has 876 wins and 301 losses, (.744). He’s won or tied for the regular season Big East title 9 times in 32 years. He’s won 5 of 32 Big East tournaments. He’s won one national championship. His program has also been on probation, (one of the findings was that Bill Rapp was putting $50 bills in the player’s lockers), although they didn't get the death penalty.
But this is a different era. College basketball has gone big time. The sport itself has exploded with many, many more athletes playing it and getting quality training at earlier ages. This has produced far more good teams. And the Big East conference has been a much tougher conference through it’s history. In 32 years, 104 teams have appeared in the final rankings. 22 of those teams have been Syracuse teams, 17 Georgetown teams, 14 Connecticut, 10 Pittsburgh, 8 St. John’s, 7 Villanova, 6 Boston College, 4 each Seton Hall, West Virginia, Notre Dame and Louisville., 3 Marquette and 1 Providence.
And Rupp’s first two NCAA tournament champions, as well as their 1946 NIT champions only had to win three games to win those titles. His last two champions won four games. Jim has been to the Elite 8, (three wins), four times, and the Final Four three times. That’s enough games to win the national championship in the Rupp days. Jim’s 1981 NIT team won 4 games and his 2002 team won 3 games. He’s also had four different teams gain a #1 ranking , although none of them retained that ranking to end of the regular season. Rupp is said have been very reluctant to integrate. The only color Jim sees is Orange.
Would Rupp have been as successful now? I suspect he would have acclimated himself to coaching black athletes, (Kentucky was finally integrated in his final year), out of necessity to compete. And I’m sure he knew his basketball. I suspect Jim Boeheim would have been a success in any era.
My primary source of information for this is the ESPN College Basketball Encyclopedia. One of the things in it is the Premo-Poretta Poll, which was an attempt to fill in the gap of the pre-NCAA tournament era in determining national champions. The Helms Foundation did this years ago, of course but their selections were made by one man, Phil Schroeder, using the much more limited fund of information available at that time. And Schroeder didn’t list a top 25, and Premo and Poretta do. They extended their list to the 1947-48 season because the AP basketball poll started the next year. That means that they over-lap with the early winners of the NCAA tournament. They don’t automatically pick the NCAA- or the NIT- champion as #1. They just view those tournaments as part of the evidence to be considered.
Another thing the modern fans needs to know is that the NIT predated the NCAA tournament. It was played in Madison Square Garden while the early NCAAs were played in gymnasiums on college campuses. Many teams preferred to go to New York and the NIT title was considered to have equal or even greater prestige, probably until the point shaving scandals of the early 50’s, which were centered on games played in New York.
The early NCAA and NIT tournaments were much smaller than they are now. Both started out as 8 team tournaments with only three wins needed to be the champion. The NCAA expanded to 16 teams in 1951, to 24 in 1953. Rupp never had to win more than four games to win a national championship.
The SEC has always been a great football conference but it hasn’t always been a strong basketball conference. Basketball used to be thought of in the strong football schools and something to keep the players in shape during the winter (as it was here before Fred Lewis). In Rupp’s era, (1931-72, using the second year to designate the season: his last was 1971-72), Kentucky won 25 conference, (the first two years it was the Southern Conference, then the SEC teams seceded to form their own conference) titles in 42 years. And one year, 1943-44 there was no SEC season, even though some teams played, due to the war. In another, the program was given the “death penalty” due to point shaving and there was no Kentucky season so it’s really 25 of 40, (.625). There were 66 SC/SEC teams listed in the Premo-Poretta and then AP/UPI rankings in those 42 years and 30 of them are Kentucky, (Vanderbilt and Mississippi State are tied for second with 6 each). There were four years when there was no ranked SEC team and a dozen years when the only one was Kentucky. There was an SEC tournament from 1933-52 and the Wildcats won it 13 times in 20 years. (It was ended due to the point-shaving scandal and did not return until 1979.)
Rupp’s teams won four NCAA tournaments: in 1948, 1949, 1951 and 1950. They also won the 1946 NIT at that time when the NIT champion might actually have been the best team in the country. The Helms foundation retroactively award them the 1933 title. Premo-Poretta has them as the #1 in 1934 and also in 1947, when they were defeated in the NIT finals by Utah, 44-49. Their team from 1946-49 was the original “Fab 5”, (and they were called that). Their starting line-up consisted of Alex Groza, (Lou’s brother), Cliff Barker, Ralph Beard, Wallace “Wah Wah” Jones and Dale Barnstable. Together they won 112 games in four years. They won the 1946 NIT, were the Premo-Poretta champs in the last year of that poll and then won the NCAA tournament as juniors and seniors. That starting five also became the starting five of the 1948 US Olympic team and won the Gold Medal as a unit. The NBA created the Indianapolis Olympians just to showcase these players.
Unfortunately they were also shaving points, a fact which came out during the scandals of 1951. This prompted an investigation of the Kentucky basketball program which found violations, (primarily periodic $50 payments being made to players by boosters) and gave them the “death penalty” for the 1953 season, although that term was not used. There had been pressure to fire Rupp or force him to resign but the University resisted doing that and thus got the severe punishment.
The team stayed together and practiced all year, even putting on a series of intra-squad exhibitions to retain fan interest. They returned to the court for the 1954 season and produced a 25-0 record and #1 national ranking. But three starters had graduated the previous spring, (Cliff Hagan, Frank Ramsey and Lou Tsioropoulis) and then entered graduate school so they could play in the new season. The NCAA had at first assured Kentucky that the players were eligible but then reversed themselves and declared the players could not compete in the NCAA tournament.
Without his stars, Rupp made the decision, over the protests of his squad to not compete in the tournament, which was won by LaSalle, a team Kentucky had beaten during the season.
Rupp returned to the NCAA throne room in 1958 with a group called the “Fiddlin’ Five”. He said before the season “We’ve got a bunch of barnyard fiddlers with a Carnegie Hall schedule” but his team came together after 6 losses to win the title over Elgin Baylor and Seattle, 84-72. He would be back in the title game in the famous 1966 games which Kentucky, with 5 white starters, lost to Texas Western, with 5 black starters.
Rupp is thus credited with winning the NCAA tournament four times but with the 1946 NIT, the 1933 Helms title, the 1933 and 1947 Premo-Poretta titles and the undefeated #1 ranked reason of 1954, he could be credited with 9 “national championships”. His all=time record is 876 wins and 190 losses, a winning percentage of .822.
Jim Boeheim has 876 wins and 301 losses, (.744). He’s won or tied for the regular season Big East title 9 times in 32 years. He’s won 5 of 32 Big East tournaments. He’s won one national championship. His program has also been on probation, (one of the findings was that Bill Rapp was putting $50 bills in the player’s lockers), although they didn't get the death penalty.
But this is a different era. College basketball has gone big time. The sport itself has exploded with many, many more athletes playing it and getting quality training at earlier ages. This has produced far more good teams. And the Big East conference has been a much tougher conference through it’s history. In 32 years, 104 teams have appeared in the final rankings. 22 of those teams have been Syracuse teams, 17 Georgetown teams, 14 Connecticut, 10 Pittsburgh, 8 St. John’s, 7 Villanova, 6 Boston College, 4 each Seton Hall, West Virginia, Notre Dame and Louisville., 3 Marquette and 1 Providence.
And Rupp’s first two NCAA tournament champions, as well as their 1946 NIT champions only had to win three games to win those titles. His last two champions won four games. Jim has been to the Elite 8, (three wins), four times, and the Final Four three times. That’s enough games to win the national championship in the Rupp days. Jim’s 1981 NIT team won 4 games and his 2002 team won 3 games. He’s also had four different teams gain a #1 ranking , although none of them retained that ranking to end of the regular season. Rupp is said have been very reluctant to integrate. The only color Jim sees is Orange.
Would Rupp have been as successful now? I suspect he would have acclimated himself to coaching black athletes, (Kentucky was finally integrated in his final year), out of necessity to compete. And I’m sure he knew his basketball. I suspect Jim Boeheim would have been a success in any era.
