The Downside (Villanova)

[SWC75]

- Last week Trevor Cooney said that if we began the Villanova game the way we began the High Point game, we’d be down 20 at halftime. We did and he was almost right. We found ourselves down 7-25 and were embarrassing ourselves on national TV. We hadn’t played a game in a week but neither had the Wildcats. Jay Wright came out in a full court press and his players responded with 9 minutes of an intensity we just couldn’t match- at start not at the start.


- We must have the worst 1 second defense in the country. Teams score with that much left on the shot clock an incredible number of times, even on in-bounds plays like the one we saw today. Of course we rarely score in that situation because we don’t take up the whole shot clock. I think our problem on defense is that we are afraid to foul and give them a new shot clock with so little time left so we prefer to assume that they hurray the shot that it will miss. Too often, it doesn’t.


- CJ Fair continues to turn the ball over. He had 5 of our 12 turnovers and now has 40 in 12 games after having 63 in 40 games last year. He gets double-teamed a lot and he hasn’t learned to pass effectively out of the double team. Jimmy Satalin said on the radio that CJ seems to be getting the ball too far from the basket and has to dribble through defenders to get within shooting range. He needs to post up more. Preston Shumpert was a jump-shooter by trade and I recall that in his senior year he was learning to post up smaller defenders, (and that’s mostly what Villanova had). CJ needs to learn how to do that.


- This whole thing about issuing flagrant fouls and interrupting games to watch the video has gotten out of hand. The Villanova player bodied up on Grant and then flopped when Grant tried to fend him off while holding onto the ball. It was a terrible call as foul but then to call it a “flagrant” foul and consider throwing Grant out over it was ridiculous.

 

[85SUAlum]

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- CJ Fair continues to turn the ball over. He had 5 of our 12 turnovers and now has 40 in 12 games after having 63 in 40 games last year. He gets double-teamed a lot and he hasn’t learned to pass effectively out of the double team. Jimmy Satalin said on the radio that CJ seems to be getting the ball too far from the basket and has to dribble through defenders to get within shooting range. He needs to post up more. Preston Shumpert was a jump-shooter by trade and I recall that in his senior year he was learning to post up smaller defenders, (and that’s mostly what Villanova had). CJ needs to learn how to do that.

On at least a couple of CJ's turnovers today, I didn't see any other SU players coming over to help him out and give him someone to pass the ball to when he was double teamed.
On another, CJ clearly should have called a timeout when he realized he was boxed in by the double team.

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- This whole thing about issuing flagrant fouls and interrupting games to watch the video has gotten out of hand. The Villanova player bodied up on Grant and then flopped when Grant tried to fend him off while holding onto the ball. It was a terrible call as foul but then to call it a “flagrant” foul and consider throwing Grant out over it was ridiculous.

I thought the new interpretation of the rules this year the defensive players were supposed to give the offensive players their space and not body up on them. Looking at the replay, it looked to me like the Nova player bodied into Grant. How the heck is Grant supposed to turn towards the basket when the defender is practically in his shorts? Grant clearly wasn't throwing an elbow, he was just trying to turn towards the basket with the ball up. The rule on Flagrant 1 fouls just plain sucks and needs to be reviewed after this season.

 

[sufandu]

The Grant play was the right call. He established his pivot foot and stepped forward with the other. When he brought the ball up and hit the guy with his elbow he was leaning far enough forward that he actually slid his pivot foot and should have been called for a travel had he not committed the foul.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Surprised there is no mention of Coleman in this thread. I'm concerned about this knee issue I hadn't heard about previously. And severely disappointed he continues to bring the ball low on offensive rebounds and get stripped.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

The Grant play was the right call. He established his pivot foot and stepped forward with the other. When he brought the ball up and hit the guy with his elbow he was leaning far enough forward that he actually slid his pivot foot and should have been called for a travel had he not committed the foul.

You mean after the guy put his knee into Grant's crotch and his foot landed between and behind both of Grant's feet? You may have missed that part.

 

[shermstheman]

Surprised there is no mention of Coleman in this thread. I'm concerned about this knee issue I hadn't heard about previously. And severely disappointed he continues to bring the ball low on offensive rebounds and get stripped.

THAT made me really mad! I'm rooting so hard for him and he refuses to learn. I expected JB to burst a vein screaming at him but he let him play on.

 

[sufandu]

You mean after the guy put his knee into Grant's crotch and his foot landed between and behind both of Grant's feet? You may have missed that part.

I suppose Grant didn't have a problem with it considering he stepped forward with his right foot and was sliding his left foot forward as he brought the ball up. Initially I thought it was a bad call, but after watching the replay, it was clear Grant moved forward into the defender.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

The Grant play was the right call. He established his pivot foot and stepped forward with the other. When he brought the ball up and hit the guy with his elbow he was leaning far enough forward that he actually slid his pivot foot and should have been called for a travel had he not committed the foul.

Exactly as I saw it. Refs did well to make a good call initially, and then really got it right on the replay. That was no flop. Grant's elbow to the chin was UFC-worthy.

 

[Melancer46]

With the way that our defense was jumping at every Nova player even if they didn't pump fake, I'm shocked to hear you think that we're afraid of fouling lol. I'd kill for us to not jump 90% of the time on defense.

 

[The General]

CJ is not used to being doubled. He needs to anticipate the double as it is coming and swing the ball. He kind of probes and waits and then it's too late. Happens a lot on the "Melo plays" we call for him where other guys are standing around expecting him to iso. CJ needs to react, the other guys need to move to an open area where he can get it to them. I assume we will work on this as it is a great way to rattle CJ and disrupt our offensive rhythm.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

CJ is not used to being doubled. He needs to anticipate the double as it is coming and swing the ball. He kind of probes and waits and then it's too late. Happens a lot on the "Melo plays" we call for him where other guys are standing around expecting him to iso. CJ needs to react, the other guys need to move to an open area where he can get it to them. I assume we will work on this as it is a great way to rattle CJ and disrupt our offensive rhythm.

Agreed. I would like to see CJ and JG (heck, DC2 and Rak as well) make quicker, or better, instant moves, esp spins to the baseline side and then take it up strong to the rim. There were multiple instances IMO where this would have led to a clean, close look, even a slam. You run the risk of an occasional charge, but the expected payoff is worth it.

 

[tbonezone]

"- CJ Fair continues to turn the ball over."

cj has yet to realize that when he splits a double team and then drives to a defender…3 DUDES ARE OPEN!

 

[SWC75]

Exactly as I saw it. Refs did well to make a good call initially, and then really got it right on the replay. That was no flop. Grant's elbow to the chin was UFC-worthy.

I can only describe what I have seen. I have not seen whatever was shown on CBS.

My position in the Dome is from the third deck, behind Grant's back. I saw the Villanova player come up and hit Grant with his chest. Grant was raising the ball above the guy's head to keep it away from him and the guy suddenly flung backwards and onto the seat of his pants. It looked like a classic flop.

Matt Park and Jim Salaltin were to the left of the play and would have had an excellent side view. Both were amazed at the flagrant call. They were willing to concede that there might have been a foul but couldn't believe anybody could call it flagrant, even under the rules they are using. And, while they surely want the Orange to win, they are typically very honest in their comments about plays, good and bad.

I've watched the play on Orange All-Access several times, freeze framing it as it progressed. No slow-motion replay was shown and the camera was from the other side of the play from me, behind the Villanova guy. Not an ideal angle. What I can tell from it, however, is that Grant's arms were going up, not parallel to the ground and that if there was any contact, it was from his left elbow, not his right, which was closer to the defender. At worst it was a glancing and inadvertent blow and the defender's reaction was certainly exaggerated. Surely this is not what the rule was intended to prevent.

It was certainly not a well officiated game. A couple of possessions before there had been a scramble for a loose ball. It wound up with five hands on it, three from Syracuse. Grant was on the ground and hand one hand on it. A nova player was kneeling next to it and had two hands on it. Ennis was standing next to it but reaching down and had two hands on it. It had been a Syracuse possession and we had the possession arrow. The refs granted Villanova a time out and declared it to be their ball. Subsequently there was a call against Keita on the other end that Salatin identified as a make-up call for something on the other end. Then there was a jump ball that was over-ruled as a foul on Gbinije, who seemed to have grabbed nothing but ball- top and bottom. Mike had gotten a jump ball on the prior possession on play where he roughly tore the ball away from the Wildcat. That may also have been a make-up call. In the first half CJ Fair got tripped up, went to the floor with the ball and passed off with no call. It was either a foul or a travel but the refs called neither.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

I suppose Grant didn't have a problem with it considering he stepped forward with his right foot and was sliding his left foot forward as he brought the ball up. Initially I thought it was a bad call, but after watching the replay, it was clear Grant moved forward into the defender.

Maybe I try it on you to see if it really has no effect on you or your overall balance? Just kidding of course, but to think it has no effect is…..well not logical. Grant couldn't move his feet forward anyway due to the defender being under him and in his crotch. Both feet moved sideways far more than forward. Thats why Grant had his feet about 8 feet apart when he was making his move with the ball.

How would you not seem to move forward into the defender if the defender goes under you? Chicken or the egg? In this case the defender went up to and under Grant first.

Anyway, just very glad this didn't change the outcome of the game. SU is developing a very focused demeanor and maintaining their composure. Ennis & crew will be very hard to rattle and beat!

 

[Jack Hall]

Surprised there is no mention of Coleman in this thread. I'm concerned about this knee issue I hadn't heard about previously. And severely disappointed he continues to bring the ball low on offensive rebounds and get stripped.

imo the only way for dc2 to get better is to be allowed to play thru his mistakes (ie bringing the ball low for no reason). but w rak and keita that simply wont happen this season unless a 20 pt lead imo

 

[orangefan13]

The rule is rediculous though. How is handchecking a foul(unless your uk or Ville) while chestbumping isn't. (especially a guard or swing forward 12 feet from the basket vs a center.

If grant was swinging his elbow out a foot away from his body with a pointed elbow at a alarming speed to protect the ball thats one thing, but he barely had any point on it at all. The guy was practically kissing his armpit and slid a extra 5 inches into Grant right before he tried to reverse the ball to the other side of his head.

If they want to play the swinging elbow rule thats fine but they should allow the offensive player a 6 inch pointed elbow rule to reverse from one side of his head to the other if there is no intent to clear the defender away with it.

Defenders should play defense with their feet and hands not their face in opponents armpits looking to take a dive. Even our double team traps have the integrity to not do that. Sadly if we did the refs would probably ref us prejudicially like they do to keita all the time because we play zone.

Nova pushed cooney, ennis and gbinije off with their off hand a whole foot and a half away from their body instead of Grants 6 inches to reverse the ball to the other side of his body on four occasions. Those four occasions led to 4 baskets and none of those were a foul because our player didn't get hit in the face with a forearm smash but punched in the chest with one instead. And Stephens and Hess allowed it without giving a crap. I can see them missing one but the other three was blatant cheating on their part and they didn't give a crap that they did....obvisously. And there is no way their vision was impared by other players as all four were one on one situations near the foul line. And the ncaa is ok with that, becuase its ok to ref like that agianst a team named syracuse???

 

[sufandu]

Maybe I try it on you to see if it really has no effect on you or your overall balance? Just kidding of course, but to think it has no effect is…..well not logical. Grant couldn't move his feet forward anyway due to the defender being under him and in his crotch. Both feet moved sideways far more than forward. Thats why Grant had his feet about 8 feet apart when he was making his move with the ball.

How would you not seem to move forward into the defender if the defender goes under you? Chicken or the egg? In this case the defender went up to and under Grant first.

Anyway, just very glad this didn't change the outcome of the game. SU is developing a very focused demeanor and maintaining their composure. Ennis & crew will be very hard to rattle and beat!

If the defender is under you and pushing you, you would be forced backward, not forward. I agree about the composure and resolve. I was glad to see them bounce back after a very shaky start.