The need for a big center | Syracusefan.com

The need for a big center

FireballPhil

2nd String
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
556
Like
1,121
Is there really one? Games are not won or lost by one position on the court, but rather the style of play can directly be impacted by that one spot. People keep saying the game is moving out to the three point line, and indeed it has. Indeed this year, only one center is averaging over 20 points a game and that is Iowa's Luke Garza. There are only 9 centers in the NCAA averaging over 15points per game. There are only 10 forwards averaging over 20 a game. There are only 58 forwards averaging over 15. There are 27 guards averaging over 20 points a game and over 200 guards averaging more than 15 points per game. Today's game goes as the guards go.

As more and more long shots are taken, rebounds are longer and longer, negating the need for a "big" center to musle for the rebounds. It would almost be more advantageous to have a smaller center that is more agile to go after those long ones, which is what we have. However they do not have the repetitiveness to gain that knack of being able to figure out about where they need to be yet because they haven't been in enough games to get that understanding yet.

Where the "big" comes in handy is solely on offense. It is nice to be able to pound the ball down and dish to a center with the hands and the bulk to take it to the hoop. Doing so frees up the shooters to move more, gives them more space to shoot, making higher accuracy of shots.

We all want a "faster" game, but does a "big" accomplish that? Who is going to have the quicker time- the 250-270 pounder or the 210-225 pounder? Most times it it the smaller guy who speeds up the game.

And what about blocks? A smaller agile center should be able to stay in front of the quicker guards and block more than the bulkier centers. Bulkier centers are harder to get around, and layups harder against them but I would think the blocks would go to the smaller guy.

My point is we complain about the size of the centers, as they are really just more of forwards than the traditional center position. But this Villanova style of basketball is becoming more and more popular, and one everyone seems to say they want more of, but you can't have that is you have slower bulkier guys. Sure there is the oddity out there that defies the mold, but he is the exception rather than the rule. Centers have always taken more time to develop, and in today's guard oriented game it takes them longer than ever before. Our guys have potential, they just need the in game experience. Let's see how quick learners they actually are. If they have a high BB IQ, which most people say they do, we should see continued improvement yet feel frustrated in the short term.
 
What we have seen (not theory, but observations) is that our skinny centers (Sidibe, Dolezaj and Edwards) get pushed around, can’t score inside when defended, and give up a ton of inside points. They can’t do enough in other elements of the game to make up for their lack of inside strength.
Give us a center like Onouku or Jackson or Rak or Fab Melo, and this team would be a factor in March.
Edwards as a junior, with another 25 lbs, will be a good center for us. And that will illustrate the difference between too skinny (Edwards now) and what a team needs.
 
If we are going to go with a more faced paced offense going forward, the big men are going to have to run the floor and have the energy to slide out on defense in the zone. Thinner guys will be able to do this better than big heavy guys.
 
Where the "big" comes in handy is solely on offense. It is nice to be able to pound the ball down and dish to a center with the hands and the bulk to take it to the hoop. Doing so frees up the shooters to move more, gives them more space to shoot, making higher accuracy of shots.
I think some of the points you make are reasonable, except for the one in bold above. JB's zone is most effective with a tall, shot blocking big man. I don't think this is even debatable. Second, the 2-3 has to have centers strong enough to hold their position inside when trying to take away low post entry passes. Otherwise, it puts too much pressure on the wings to help defend the interior AND rotate out far/fast enough to defend the 3.

As for offense, if given the choice, most (all?) coaches would a take big who can score effectively on the inside. The problem is that bigs with that skill set are hard to find, so you end up with forwards playing the 5 out of necessity not necessarily choice.

If by playing "faster" you mean fast break and transition offense, that starts with rebounding. You have to be able to control the boards. Many transition offenses use the 5 as a trailer, so the center does not need to be the fastest guy down the floor.
 
I think I agree and disagree with different parts of this post:

Agree:
  • We don't really need a heavy guy to be a good rebounding team; we have to rebound as a team. Basically, every year, we have 1 or 2 players on the team that will actually box people out and the rest just stand around and try to jump up and grab rebounds while letting their man get better position than them. A guy like Rick Jackson won't fix the rebounding; he might improve it a little bit, but the issue is much larger than just the guy in the middle.
  • With the way basketball is trending, it's probably more advantageous to have a smaller, quicker big man than it is to have a big, slow guy in the middle.

Disagree:
  • We don't need our center to be smaller/more athletic in order to push tempo. If 4 of the 5 guys on the team are beating the other team down the floor, we're scoring in transition regardless of what our center is doing. Obviously the more the merrier, but point being, we don't need literally every player to be athletic in order to push pace.
  • I think a bigger center is more advantageous defensively than it is offensively. Offensively, I think Tyler Lydon was probably the perfect big man for us. Could set screens, was a good shooter with great range, allowing him to stretch the defense, was athletic enough to roll to the basket and finish, and was coordinated enough to catch the ball on the perimeter and make something happen with the dribble every once in awhile.
In my opinion, the perfect center for us would be someone like a Brook Lopez; great rim protector with the size and strength to anchor down the middle of the paint. He boxes his man out every possession, which should theoretically help the rest of the team grab rebounds and go. On the offensive end, he can pull his man out to the 3 point line and is basically a threat anywhere on the floor.

Obviously guys like that are pretty rare (and becoming exceedingly rare for Syracuse), but Fab and Lydon are probably the two best big men we've had semi-recently in terms of how I think they would fit in today's college system. Fab checked all the boxes on the defensive end and was a good screener and roller on the offensive end (and also underrated in terms of running the floor). Lydon checked basically every box with the exception of being able to box his man out consistently.

Guys like Onuaku and Jackson would obviously help us much more than our current big men, but I don't think they would fit nearly as well as Fab and Lydon.
 
The ideal big man for this era of basketball has a Tyler Lydon type skillset. Can score in the post and go outside and hit shots when needed.
 
I think I agree and disagree with different parts of this post:

Agree:
  • We don't really need a heavy guy to be a good rebounding team; we have to rebound as a team. Basically, every year, we have 1 or 2 players on the team that will actually box people out and the rest just stand around and try to jump up and grab rebounds while letting their man get better position than them. A guy like Rick Jackson won't fix the rebounding; he might improve it a little bit, but the issue is much larger than just the guy in the middle.
  • With the way basketball is trending, it's probably more advantageous to have a smaller, quicker big man than it is to have a big, slow guy in the middle.

Disagree:
  • We don't need our center to be smaller/more athletic in order to push tempo. If 4 of the 5 guys on the team are beating the other team down the floor, we're scoring in transition regardless of what our center is doing. Obviously the more the merrier, but point being, we don't need literally every player to be athletic in order to push pace.
  • I think a bigger center is more advantageous defensively than it is offensively. Offensively, I think Tyler Lydon was probably the perfect big man for us. Could set screens, was a good shooter with great range, allowing him to stretch the defense, was athletic enough to roll to the basket and finish, and was coordinated enough to catch the ball on the perimeter and make something happen with the dribble every once in awhile.
In my opinion, the perfect center for us would be someone like a Brook Lopez; great rim protector with the size and strength to anchor down the middle of the paint. He boxes his man out every possession, which should theoretically help the rest of the team grab rebounds and go. On the offensive end, he can pull his man out to the 3 point line and is basically a threat anywhere on the floor.

Obviously guys like that are pretty rare (and becoming exceedingly rare for Syracuse), but Fab and Lydon are probably the two best big men we've had semi-recently in terms of how I think they would fit in today's college system. Fab checked all the boxes on the defensive end and was a good screener and roller on the offensive end (and also underrated in terms of running the floor). Lydon checked basically every box with the exception of being able to box his man out consistently.

Guys like Onuaku and Jackson would obviously help us much more than our current big men, but I don't think they would fit nearly as well as Fab and Lydon.

You beat me too it. Great post.
 
I will take a Rak on my team any day.
The game has changed and is no longer the game that many of us learned to play long ago--sad.
It would be interesting to see a pre-season played with no 3-pt shot. Maybe some fundamentals would be required.
 
What we have seen (not theory, but observations) is that our skinny centers (Sidibe, Dolezaj and Edwards) get pushed around, can’t score inside when defended, and give up a ton of inside points. They can’t do enough in other elements of the game to make up for their lack of inside strength.
Give us a center like Onouku or Jackson or Rak or Fab Melo, and this team would be a factor in March.
Edwards as a junior, with another 25 lbs, will be a good center for us. And that will illustrate the difference between too skinny (Edwards now) and what a team needs.
Today's center needs to be tall enough and strong enough so guarding opposing centers isn't a mismatch. 6'9" plus a muscular 230# works. Every inch up add 5 to 15 pounds. Both D and O requires good footwork which can help offset some size limitations. Good hands. They don't need to average 20ppg, or even 15. They have to be a legitimate threat so they can't be ignored.
 
Honestly I am really really high on our redshirting #2, Jon Bol Ajak. Watch his tape on the recruiting board, pretty deep stroke, finesse shots around rim and shot blocking.

Just wanted to mention I am of the opinion that he will be a fan favorite before someone else is coaching.

I don't want to see a fatty like DeJaun Blair. Big isn't the game anymore.
 
Is there really one? Games are not won or lost by one position on the court, but rather the style of play can directly be impacted by that one spot. People keep saying the game is moving out to the three point line, and indeed it has. Indeed this year, only one center is averaging over 20 points a game and that is Iowa's Luke Garza. There are only 9 centers in the NCAA averaging over 15points per game. There are only 10 forwards averaging over 20 a game. There are only 58 forwards averaging over 15. There are 27 guards averaging over 20 points a game and over 200 guards averaging more than 15 points per game. Today's game goes as the guards go.

As more and more long shots are taken, rebounds are longer and longer, negating the need for a "big" center to musle for the rebounds. It would almost be more advantageous to have a smaller center that is more agile to go after those long ones, which is what we have. However they do not have the repetitiveness to gain that knack of being able to figure out about where they need to be yet because they haven't been in enough games to get that understanding yet.

Where the "big" comes in handy is solely on offense. It is nice to be able to pound the ball down and dish to a center with the hands and the bulk to take it to the hoop. Doing so frees up the shooters to move more, gives them more space to shoot, making higher accuracy of shots.

We all want a "faster" game, but does a "big" accomplish that? Who is going to have the quicker time- the 250-270 pounder or the 210-225 pounder? Most times it it the smaller guy who speeds up the game.

And what about blocks? A smaller agile center should be able to stay in front of the quicker guards and block more than the bulkier centers. Bulkier centers are harder to get around, and layups harder against them but I would think the blocks would go to the smaller guy.

My point is we complain about the size of the centers, as they are really just more of forwards than the traditional center position. But this Villanova style of basketball is becoming more and more popular, and one everyone seems to say they want more of, but you can't have that is you have slower bulkier guys. Sure there is the oddity out there that defies the mold, but he is the exception rather than the rule. Centers have always taken more time to develop, and in today's guard oriented game it takes them longer than ever before. Our guys have potential, they just need the in game experience. Let's see how quick learners they actually are. If they have a high BB IQ, which most people say they do, we should see continued improvement yet feel frustrated in the short term.


Have you looked on the other team around the country? We look like a middle school team playing against NBA talent. This staff has neglectful by not addressing this position. No, we won’t give JB a pass for the recruiting dumpster fire
 
Have you looked on the other team around the country? We look like a middle school team playing against NBA talent. This staff has neglectful by not addressing this position. No, we won’t give JB a pass for the recruiting dumpster fire
I think we will be very, very, happy with JBA and Edwards as we go down the road.
 
Honestly I am really really high on our redshirting #2, Jon Bol Ajak. Watch his tape on the recruiting board, pretty deep stroke, finesse shots around rim and shot blocking.

Just wanted to mention I am of the opinion that he will be a fan favorite before someone else is coaching.

I don't want to see a fatty like DeJaun Blair. Big isn't the game anymore.
Honestly not sure if serious?
DeJuan Blair was a less athletic Zion Williamson. Both of whom destroyed us.

I would take Blair in a second on this team.
Also, please tell us why you are so high on Jon Bol Ajak? Every recruit's tape looks good. He didn't look like he belonged on the court during the exhibition games. This team is hurting for center depth and redshirted him. That speaks volumes. We literally have 3 centers and one of them isn't a C in Marek Dolezaj.
Sidibe gets foul trouble a lot. We could use a warm body and are literally RSing JBA. I think Edwards has way more upside than JBA.
Edwards if he develops could be a defensive force with his body size and athleticism.
 
I think we will be very, very, happy with JBA and Edwards as we go down the road.
Edwards I can see developing hopefully into a Daryl Watkins. JBA is a pure unknown. Could be Lydon or Chino.
 
The need for a real center isn’t about height. It’s about power and being able to defend against being big-boy’d/exploited on defense in the post, hold position to rebound, and command/carve out enough space to convert when you have in-close opportunities on offense.

As for big, bulky guys being too slow to participate in a faster, running game, how often do the greyhounds we are used to get involved on the break? One of the best we’ve had was Fab Melo and he was massive.
 
Also college basketball isn't the NBA. In the NBA shooting is needed because the athleticism is off the charts and space is needed to be able to drive the ball.
If an NBA team played against our zone it would get shredded 9 out of 10 games.
Pro shooting is off the hook.

College basketball is played a much slower pace and in the half court. That is why having a post option is necessary just for spacing. So teams can't packline defense your offense.

We don't need Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal offensively. We just need to have an option who can atleast be a threat occasionally on the block during a dry spell.
 
Honestly not sure if serious?
DeJuan Blair was a less athletic Zion Williamson. Both of whom destroyed us.

I would take Blair in a second on this team.
Also, please tell us why you are so high on Jon Bol Ajak? Every recruit's tape looks good. He didn't look like he belonged on the court during the exhibition games. This team is hurting for center depth and redshirted him. That speaks volumes. We literally have 3 centers and one of them isn't a C in Marek Dolezaj.
Sidibe gets foul trouble a lot. We could use a warm body and are literally RSing JBA. I think Edwards has way more upside than JBA.
Edwards if he develops could be a defensive force with his body size and athleticism.

JBA looked better than Sid or Edwards to me when I saw the team practice before the season. He's a threat out to 15 feet. There's a reason he was offered by Nova.
 
JBA looked better than Sid or Edwards to me when I saw the team practice before the season. He's a threat out to 15 feet. There's a reason he was offered by Nova.
He should be ahead of Edwards then. Sidibe's performance and proneness to foul trouble screams we need 3 bigs. Marek as a C gets him into foul trouble as well.
I don't get JBA redshirting. Is he in the rotation next year?
 
He should be ahead of Edwards then. Sidibe's performance and proneness to foul trouble screams we need 3 bigs. Marek as a C gets him into foul trouble as well.
I don't get JBA redshirting. Is he in the rotation next year?

Depends who transfers I guess. I could see him playing the 4 with someone else at center. He's a Rick/Lydon/Rak type in that regard.
 
Depends who transfers I guess. I could see him playing the 4 with someone else at center. He's a Rick/Lydon/Rak type in that regard.
So we got
1. JG3
2. Sidibe
3. Guerrier
4. Edwards
5. Goodine
6. Marek
As locks to return on scholarship
7. Hughes
Could decide to go pro.

8. Buddy
could be made a walkon if necessary.

9. Braswell
10. Carey
11. Washington
nobody has a clue

12. JBA
redshirting

Incoming Fr.
13. Richmond
14. Newton

So basically somebody has to go or Buddy become a walkon.
 
Edwards I can see developing hopefully into a Daryl Watkins. JBA is a pure unknown. Could be Lydon or Chino.

I don't see the comparison to Watkins at all. I see him developing into Rak in the best case scenario. Edward's isn't built or does he play anything like Darryl. Jmo.
 
You need to have some physicality in the post, or you will get boxed out on defense. Edwards needs to try to be around 238 by the end of the season.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
167,127
Messages
4,681,572
Members
5,900
Latest member
DizzyNY

Online statistics

Members online
62
Guests online
1,684
Total visitors
1,746


Top Bottom