The Thrill is Gone | Syracusefan.com

The Thrill is Gone

javadoc

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I've been complaining about the changes in college football with the unholy synergy of false-NIL and no-fault transfer, and this bowl season I saw how that plays out. I speak only for myself.

First - I flew up to Syracuse from Atlanta with the kids on Christmas day, to see my folks and to let the kids see winter. We had a great time. Thursday, at the start of the Pinstripe Bowl, we were at Clay Park South, sledding. We missed almost the entire first half, and I would have been fine missing the entire game.

I hate NFL "opt-outs". It's bullcrap. Since when does a player get to say, "Sorry, I'm not showing up for work today?" When a team's best players choose not to play, to me, that is no longer the team I became invested in during the season. And a loss is a loss - if by opting out you caused the bulk of the roster to lose, you are at fault. That problem is of recent vintage, but it is compounded by the intra-season portal chumps now. Such a joke.

So as I was watching the second half of the bowl, I thought, I don't care. I could have skipped this entire game and I wouldn't care. The team on the field was not the Syracuse University Orangemen 2022-2023 squad, it was some weird interstitial pick-up squad.

I haven't watched any other bowl games. In particular, I didn't watch the CFB playoff games. I no longer have any interest in watching the "best teams" that money can buy. I will not be part of feeding that beast.

An argument that surfaced here recently, and a comment from a poster about the mindset of some previous players, struck me as specious. The gist of it is that players don't get fair value in the system, they haven't thought so for a while, and they are nevertheless stuck because there is no other alternative.

A player's objective value is only a valid concept in the totality of the system in which the player seeks to capitalize on that value. For years, the NCAA allowed a system in which players were paid in-kind for the value of their college education. You think that's not enough? Then go play in an alternative system where you can achieve your "fair value".

If that fair value had a market, it would have materialized by now. Someone would have come up with a pro feeder league outside of college athletics. The fact that it didn't means - you have no argument! You don't like it - go do something else! Advocate for whatever you want, but don't curse the hand that feeds you while you seek your golden goose.

I was in the Dome for the first game, been on this board for 20 years now, and college football has lost "it" for me. The thrill is gone.
 
Nil and transfer portal have already ruined cfb..
What people don’t talk about is how much extra money players are getting paid to play in big bowl games. Example-Tucker opts out of bowl to go to nfl,but isn’t even a top 10 rb on draft boards. While all the top players who are sure top 5 picks are playing in bowls?? You can’t tell me Alabama and Georgia aren’t coming up with big money for this! Just a thought/opinion..
 
I hate NFL "opt-outs". It's bullcrap. Since when does a player get to say, "Sorry, I'm not showing up for work today?"
An argument that surfaced here recently, and a comment from a poster about the mindset of some previous players, struck me as specious. The gist of it is that players don't get fair value in the system, they haven't thought so for a while, and they are nevertheless stuck because there is no other alternative.

A player's objective value is only a valid concept in the totality of the system in which the player seeks to capitalize on that value. For years, the NCAA allowed a system in which players were paid in-kind for the value of their college education. You think that's not enough? Then go play in an alternative system where you can achieve your "fair value".

If that fair value had a market, it would have materialized by now. Someone would have come up with a pro feeder league outside of college athletics. The fact that it didn't means - you have no argument! You don't like it - go do something else! Advocate for whatever you want, but don't curse the hand that feeds you while you seek your golden goose.
1) It’s funny that you call my arguments “specious” and then argue that players don’t deserve fair value because no one wants to give it to them. Are you not aware that this is exactly what unions have been fighting for in the United States for 150+ years?

2) You can’t call not playing in bowl games “not showing up to work” because the NCAA has wrapped itself into circles arguing that its participants are not employees. That’s why they’re called “student-athletes” and not “players.” If the NCAA tries to force players to play based on “contractual obligations” the house of cards collapses, and they know that.

3) Your whole post reads of “the world is changing, and I’m angry at the players” when it’s TV, boosters, and administrators that have dumped billions into the ecosystem.
 
I've been complaining about the changes in college football with the unholy synergy of false-NIL and no-fault transfer, and this bowl season I saw how that plays out. I speak only for myself.

First - I flew up to Syracuse from Atlanta with the kids on Christmas day, to see my folks and to let the kids see winter. We had a great time. Thursday, at the start of the Pinstripe Bowl, we were at Clay Park South, sledding. We missed almost the entire first half, and I would have been fine missing the entire game.

I hate NFL "opt-outs". It's bullcrap. Since when does a player get to say, "Sorry, I'm not showing up for work today?" When a team's best players choose not to play, to me, that is no longer the team I became invested in during the season. And a loss is a loss - if by opting out you caused the bulk of the roster to lose, you are at fault. That problem is of recent vintage, but it is compounded by the intra-season portal chumps now. Such a joke.

So as I was watching the second half of the bowl, I thought, I don't care. I could have skipped this entire game and I wouldn't care. The team on the field was not the Syracuse University Orangemen 2022-2023 squad, it was some weird interstitial pick-up squad.

I haven't watched any other bowl games. In particular, I didn't watch the CFB playoff games. I no longer have any interest in watching the "best teams" that money can buy. I will not be part of feeding that beast.

An argument that surfaced here recently, and a comment from a poster about the mindset of some previous players, struck me as specious. The gist of it is that players don't get fair value in the system, they haven't thought so for a while, and they are nevertheless stuck because there is no other alternative.

A player's objective value is only a valid concept in the totality of the system in which the player seeks to capitalize on that value. For years, the NCAA allowed a system in which players were paid in-kind for the value of their college education. You think that's not enough? Then go play in an alternative system where you can achieve your "fair value".

If that fair value had a market, it would have materialized by now. Someone would have come up with a pro feeder league outside of college athletics. The fact that it didn't means - you have no argument! You don't like it - go do something else! Advocate for whatever you want, but don't curse the hand that feeds you while you seek your golden goose.

I was in the Dome for the first game, been on this board for 20 years now, and college football has lost "it" for me. The thrill is gone.
The market has been underground. Now it’s not. In “Out of their league” , Syracuse’s own Dave Meggeyesy wrote about the financial compensation players would get from boosters. He also wrote about academic abuses of players (useless majors, etc.) That was in the 60’s.
The college FB playoff has always been the best teams that money can buy. That’s why has always been the SEC, Big 10, ND, USC, Oregon, Clemson.
Players at the pro level, with contracts in place, have been sitting out and not playing for a long time. Their teammates understand. The coaches get it. It’s just the fans who don’t want things to change.
As to an alternative feeder league: A large group of people with money who see an opportunity to make money would have to start a new league, against two monopolies. There is no money to be made there for the owners.
The FMV for the players is for ENDORSEMENTS, not for playing. The schools aren’t paying the players. The money doesn’t come out of TV or ticket sales.) However, the schools with the best booster machines that set up lucrative NIL deals will get the best players. Guess what? The schools with the best boosters willing to give money under the table already got the best players. (Remember Cam Newton? What did his dad get? $180? Booster says he received money plan) Syracuse lost Marcus Liberty the night before signing day when Illinois ponies up enough money to “take care of the whole family”. Now it’s above board.
My mind in this whole thing was changed 30 years ago in law school. A friend I met there played 4 years of baseball at Niagara. He signed with the A’s after graduation. He promptly got hurt and didn’t play pro ball at any level again. I remarked that he was probably glad he went to school and got his degree. He said he screwed up. He should have signed out of HS and had his schooling paid for by the team he signed with. (He was that good.)
An athlete’s body and spirit only has so many tackles, throws, falls, catches, hits, workouts, surgeries, rehabs, etc. in it. Once it’s over, there is no money to be made. Today, these kids have invested thousands of hours and the families, quite often, have invested tens of thousands of dollars, for a HUGE payoff (not $75,000, a 401K, medical and dental to start).
Coaches have been cashing in FROM the schools, and leaving before bowl games. Why should the players be held to a higher standard?
All of that said, I totally respect how you and a lot of people feel about it. I get it. But to me, that’s a nostalgic version of college amateurism, which has not existed at the P5 level, for 50-60 years.
On the other hand, I (now) view sports as entertainment, not worthy of an emotional investment, or a financial commitment outside of television access.
Neither view is right or wrong.
Happy New Year! I hope you find other things to fill your sports calendar that come to give you as much joy as college sports once did.
 
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The “monopoly” of the NFL and CFB is as you said, the problem. They have colluded to maintain ownership. They’ve put rules in place that you can’t play pro unless you’re so old, or so far out of HS, etc. It’s allowed the CFB system to serve as their feeder system, and it’s allowed CFB to make gobs of cash.

At one time, that cash was off of ticket sakes, fans who paid to sit in seats, and bought sweatshirts with Ole State U. on the front. Now it’s TV money and sponsorships. And the money is huge.

My position is, and has always been, that we do a disservice to kids by perpetuating a system that values athletics over education. Kids growing up should be lead to believe that their athletic talents are a means to an end - a better life, a career, a purpose. Instead, we increasingly devalue the education and lead kids to believe that there are wheel barrels full of money for them just by playing a sport. For 99% of athletes this is not true, never has been and never will be. It just perpetuates the lie that allows others to make money off of them.

You need a path for kids who just want money to go and play their sport. The vast majority of them will fail. The kids who then make the decision to be a student athlete, will be the successful ones. It will take time. There is no quick fix.
 
The NCAA could have pulled its head out of the sand 15 years ago and figured out a legitimate way to compensate kids on a universal basis that could have potentially headed off NIL in the first place. I proposed years ago a system in which first year players at a school make X...second year players make Y...etc, until a 4th or 5th year player makes a nice chunk of change (i don't know these exact numbers...10K for a first year player...25K for a senior? 50?)

Those numbers would reset if a player transfers.

Point being, there were measures that could have been taken that could have reduced the number of kids leaving. The NCAA dropped the ball.

Now, the ONLY two things I think that can be done.

1- Close the portal until after the Bowl season
2- Allow Bowls to pay players directly. Perhaps a 50:50 split players to leagues. Will $10K or $20K keep a very likely early rounder from opting out? Probably not. But will it motivate a later round type who may not even stick? perhaps.
 
You need a path for kids who just want money to go and play their sport. The vast majority of them will fail. The kids who then make the decision to be a student athlete, will be the successful ones. It will take time. There is no quick fix.
Why do you think only guys who incubate in the NCAA system will succeed?
 
Why do you think only guys who incubate in the NCAA system will succeed?
Not them exclusively, but in general yes. This is known. In general, a young man with a degree has a better chance at success than a kid who puts his entire effort into professional sports.
 
A few items: a player cannot, right now, get his full worth in this system. It’s an imperfect market with monopsony power held by the ncaa.

If you made “going to class” an opt-in benefit like someone opting into a flex HSA, but not a mandatory part of playing, a LOT of colleges would sign up for that immediately to put a sticker price on that education.

Here’s the thing though, if you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

But they are expanding to 12 playoff teams and the portal has landed us a number of key recruits that were highly ranked out of HS, including our QB and backup QB.

I’m fine with it. I am totally fine getting two years from Duce. Totally fine if Carter chooses to bounce for a better situation.

I just watched two historically entertaining CFP games and can’t wait for the title game.
 
The market has been underground. Now it’s not. In “Out of their league” , Syracuse’s own Dave Meggeyesy wrote about the financial compensation players would get from boosters. He also wrote about academic abuses of players (useless majors, etc.) That was in the 60’s.
The college FB playoff has always been the best teams that money can buy. That’s why has always been the SEC, Big 10, ND, USC, Oregon, Clemson.
Players at the pro level, with contracts in place, have been sitting out and not playing for a long time. Their teammates understand. The coaches get it. It’s just the fans who don’t want things to change.
As to an alternative feeder league: A large group of people with money who see an opportunity to make money would have to start a new league, against two monopolies. There is no money to be made there for the owners.
The FMV for the players is for ENDORSEMENTS, not for playing. The schools aren’t paying the players. The money doesn’t come out of TV or ticket sales.) However, the schools with the best booster machines that set up lucrative NIL deals will get the best players. Guess what? The schools with the best boosters willing to give money under the table already got the best players. (Remember Cam Newton? What did his dad get? $180? Booster says he received money plan) Syracuse lost Marcus Liberty the night before signing day when Illinois ponies up enough money to “take care of the whole family”. Now it’s above board.
My mind in this whole thing was changed 30 years ago in law school. A friend I met there played 4 years of baseball at Niagara. He signed with the A’s after graduation. He promptly got hurt and didn’t play pro ball at any level again. I remarked that he was probably glad he went to school and got his degree. He said he screwed up. He should have signed out of HS and had his schooling paid for by the team he signed with. (He was that good.)
An athlete’s body and spirit only has so many tackles, throws, falls, catches, hits, workouts, surgeries, rehabs, etc. in it. Once it’s over, there is no money to be made. Today, these kids have invested thousands of hours and the families, quite often, have invested tens of thousands of dollars, for a HUGE payoff (not $75,000, a 401K, medical and dental to start).
Coaches have been cashing in FROM the schools, and leaving before bowl games. Why should the players be held to a higher standard?
All of that said, I totally respect how you and a lot of people feel about it. I get it. But to me, that’s a nostalgic version of college amateurism, which has not existed at the P5 level, for 50-60 years.
On the other hand, I (now) view sports as entertainment, not worthy of an emotional investment, or a financial commitment outside of television access.
Neither view is right or wrong.
Happy New Year! I hope you find other things to fill your sports calendar that come to give you as much joy as college sports once did.
I get coaches can leave. So fix the problem. No coaching moves until after last playoff game. If u have a nil u play in bowl game. No different than a contract. If ur getting paid based on your level of play, then u play in bowl game. Let all the crazy go on after Jan 15.
 
I get coaches can leave. So fix the problem. No coaching moves until after last playoff game. If u have a nil u play in bowl game. No different than a contract. If ur getting paid based on your level of play, then u play in bowl game. Let all the crazy go on after Jan 15.
NIL agreements aren’t tied to participation and the school can’t use licensing agreements as a cudgel to force participation.
 
The NCAA could have pulled its head out of the sand 15 years ago and figured out a legitimate way to compensate kids on a universal basis that could have potentially headed off NIL in the first place. I proposed years ago a system in which first year players at a school make X...second year players make Y...etc, until a 4th or 5th year player makes a nice chunk of change (i don't know these exact numbers...10K for a first year player...25K for a senior? 50?)

Those numbers would reset if a player transfers.

Point being, there were measures that could have been taken that could have reduced the number of kids leaving. The NCAA dropped the ball.

Now, the ONLY two things I think that can be done.

1- Close the portal until after the Bowl season
2- Allow Bowls to pay players directly. Perhaps a 50:50 split players to leagues. Will $10K or $20K keep a very likely early rounder from opting out? Probably not. But will it motivate a later round type who may not even stick? perhaps.
How do you close the portal until after bowl season when ( I think) players have to be enrolled for the January semester to play at their new school?
 
A player's objective value is only a valid concept in the totality of the system in which the player seeks to capitalize on that value. For years, the NCAA allowed a system in which players were paid in-kind for the value of their college education. You think that's not enough? Then go play in an alternative system where you can achieve your "fair value".

If that fair value had a market, it would have materialized by now. Someone would have come up with a pro feeder league outside of college athletics. The fact that it didn't means - you have no argument! You don't like it - go do something else! Advocate for whatever you want, but don't curse the hand that feeds you while you seek your golden goose.

I understand some of what you’re saying but the paragraphs above don’t work, especially the last paragraph. It has materialized, that’s what we’re seeing that you’re not happy with. They don’t need to go play in an alternative system, they’ve created the alternative system in the frame work of the current system. It’s an odd conclusion and connection to make IMO.

Being unhappy with what’s happening is one thing, making it sound like the previous system was just and equitable isn’t accurate. To say another system would have been created if the current model was so unfair is completely being oblivious to the fact that’s exactly what has just happened.
 
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How do you close the portal until after bowl season when ( I think) players have to be enrolled for the January semester to play at their new school?

There's a domino effect of things that have to happen, that being one of them.
 
Certainly not directed at Java, long time solid member of the forum for sure and certainly understand the POV.

I think the portal will only help Syracuse as well as the switch to a 12 team championship. I certainly understand that some don't like the new era of college football. That said, either watch or don't. In addition, at the end of the day it really doesn't matter all that much. It's a game and if it isn't fun to watch then simply don't. It's entertainment and if it isn't entertaining find something else that is

I hate college basketball and have for quite a few years. I watch Syracuse only at this point and that is it. I still hope for their success but really don't care much. The product has become too watered down for me and once Syracuse is done for the year I don't watch any of it. I do watch a ton of NBA because I find it highly entertaining where some do not as they hate the load management and players jumping ship and demanding trades etc. Understand that as well but to me it's by far the best basketball out there and not even close. I'd sooner watch Sacramento/ Charlotte than I would UNC/ Duke. To each their own
 
Nil and transfer portal have already ruined cfb..
What people don’t talk about is how much extra money players are getting paid to play in big bowl games. Example-Tucker opts out of bowl to go to nfl,but isn’t even a top 10 rb on draft boards. While all the top players who are sure top 5 picks are playing in bowls?? You can’t tell me Alabama and Georgia aren’t coming up with big money for this! Just a thought/opinion..
Uhhh, Tucker top 10 in:





And those are just 4 of the first 6 or so links on google when searching “top RBs”…
 
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I feel like I’m the only one who is addressing the socioeconomic factors. Everything else is just instant gratification BS.
Which is why it’s a socio-economic bomb because many either don’t they have the ability to wait or the time to wait for a pay off. This isn’t some “everyone is being selfish” thing. Some guys come from poverty this white, middle aged board can’t comprehend.
 
Don't blame the players when it was the administrators, coaches, and TV companies that created the massive rights fees and made sure for a long time that one group was cut out (players).

While there are aspects of NIL/transfers I don't like, I appreciate the increased opportunities for many young players to earn what they're worth and help out their families.

Syracuse football will always hold a special place for me.
 
College sports has always been about coaching and the school than the players. Most fans only know about a player on signing day and then two years later when they start contributing. Then they know about the player for one or two years before they graduate or go pro. The portal and NIL is only magnifying the impact of coaching and the school because now most schools will have 2 years max with a player.

In my opinion the benefit of the portal will outweigh the downside because it will spread out talent much more evenly and I predict we see more “cinderellas” like TCU.

With regards to bowls… I’ve been done with them since the year teams with losing records got into them because there were more bowls than teams with .500 or better records.

With regards to Syracuse… they need to get the coaching and system right and once and for all figure out how to get a steady pipeline of receivers in. The failure of Babers to recruit/develop receiver talent over 7 seasons has been mind boggling to me. We also need an offensive system that doesn’t require our QB to be Superman to win games. Again a huge failure of the Babers system in my opinion.
 
I have never liked the idea of paying college kids for playing, I had student loans for a long time and I always thought what a great deal it would be not to have them. That being said if you take a step back and look at how much $$$ everybody was making off these kids it’s hard to say it’s not fair or it’s ruined the game. Some of these kids don’t have a pot to piss in and they are leveraging their talents into life changing $$. It’s ok for Saban to have 3 houses or Boeheim to buy a 5 million dollar house on Skaneateles Lake? but these kids can’t get in most cases less then 50 grand for NIL deals. And the few that can make much more so be it. Also I still believe the marker will reset itself even the Texas am of the world can’t go a decade having a 50 million payroll and not make a bowl game. Eventually if the return isn’t there the market will reset.
 

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