Two completely separate observations | Syracusefan.com

Two completely separate observations

FireballPhil

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1. There is a lot of slipping going on during games. A lot more than usual.. Is there something different they are putting on floors for shine that could be causing this?

2. All this hype about how awesome it is that Duke and NC are finally meeting in the tournament after 50 years of avoiding each other simply shows one thing. Both teams have been vastly overrated throughout the years or if they had lived up to their hype they surely would have met a few times before.
 

goofnoff

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1. There is a lot of slipping going on during games. A lot more than usual.. Is there something different they are putting on floors for shine that could be causing this?

2. All this hype about how awesome it is that Duke and NC are finally meeting in the tournament after 50 years of avoiding each other simply shows one thing. Both teams have been vastly overrated throughout the years or if they had lived up to their hype they surely would have met a few times before.
1. I haven't heard a player or coach make that comment.

2. For many years only the ACC tourney champ got a bid and the ACC was the only major conference with a Tourney. I'd sure like to have enjoyed the talent those two teams have enjoyed over the years.
 

FireballPhil

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1. I haven't heard a player or coach make that comment.

2. For many years only the ACC tourney champ got a bid and the ACC was the only major conference with a Tourney. I'd sure like to have enjoyed the talent those two teams have enjoyed over the years.
They haven't that I have heard either. But in three separate games this weekend I watched there was a ton. Not sure if it was this weekend but the Iowa State game was the worst, especially in the second half. But there were others, more than I remember.

And yes they have had talent, but the fact that they have never met before underscores how much people bought into the Dick Vitale hype machine.
 

jncuse

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The only thing I will say regarding Duke vs UNC not meeting before

The top three teams in a conference all need to be in a different region. So that in itself eliminated the opportunity for these teams to meet until the final 4 most years.
 

FireballPhil

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The only thing I will say regarding Duke vs UNC not meeting before

The top three teams in a conference all need to be in a different region. So that in itself eliminated the opportunity for these teams to meet until the final 4 most years.
Now yes under the pod system. It wasn't always that way. An even still, in 50 years it should have happened at some point if they were both as great as has been historically claimed. Now granted I still have some Big East bias, always will, and have hard feelings from that era, but it doesn't change the fact they have never met, and thus can be concluded they may have been good but not great.
 

jncuse

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Now yes under the pod system. It wasn't always that way. An even still, in 50 years it should have happened at some point if they were both as great as has been historically claimed. Now granted I still have some Big East bias, always will, and have hard feelings from that era, but it doesn't change the fact they have never met, and thus can be concluded they may have been good but not great.

As far as I am aware the spread of the top 3 teams over regions has been a bracketing rule since the expansion to 64 teams in or around 1985.

I know that before 2010 (give or take a few year) NCAA Bracketing rules specifically prohibited teams from the same conference meeting until the elite 8. The rules on that only changed once the Big East got 9 teams one year.

I guess your point would still hold though -- if they are so great why have they never met in the final 4.

And while I am not going to go and count appearances of everybody, it does appear based on a quick scan that the teams with the most final fours since 1985 are unfortunately Duke (12) and UNC (12).
 
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CU44SE

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1. There is a lot of slipping going on during games. A lot more than usual.. Is there something different they are putting on floors for shine that could be causing this?

2. All this hype about how awesome it is that Duke and NC are finally meeting in the tournament after 50 years of avoiding each other simply shows one thing. Both teams have been vastly overrated throughout the years or if they had lived up to their hype they surely would have met a few times before.

Ya, second one is an absolute terrible take. UNC and Duke have 2 of the best resumes in the sport. Overrated? If that is overrated, please tell me what would satisfy you? Because both programs are in the top 4 for number of final four appearances and number of championships. And that is the measuring stick of the sport.

Your bench mark was 50 years. In the last 50 years, Duke and UNC are THE TOP 2 in Championsips and Final Four Appearances.

Here are the teams overall history (>50 years)

UNC- 21 final fours, 6 championships, 5 second places, career .735 winning percentage

Duke- 17 final fours, 5 championships, 6 second places, career .710 winning percentage

Syracuse- 6 final fours, 1 championship, 2 second place finish, career .687 winning percentage

Kansas- 16 final fours, 3 championships, 6 second place finish, career .727 winning percentage

Kentucky- 17 final fours, 8 championships, 4 runner ups, career .765 winning percentage

UCLA- 19 final fours, 11 championships, 2 second places, career .688 winning percentage

Indiana- 8 final fours, 5 championships. 1 second place, career .634 winning percentage.
 

IthacaMatt

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1. There is a lot of slipping going on during games. A lot more than usual.. Is there something different they are putting on floors for shine that could be causing this?

2. All this hype about how awesome it is that Duke and NC are finally meeting in the tournament after 50 years of avoiding each other simply shows one thing. Both teams have been vastly overrated throughout the years or if they had lived up to their hype they surely would have met a few times before.

Not having watched a ton of hoops, admittedly, this past year I like Kansas' chances. Villanova is scrappy, but missing a key guy. Kansas has big strong guards who can score, too, and provide a lot of help on the boards.

Not sure if they have the big men to match up with either ACC team that's left, but they probably have the best starting guards of anybody. Bill Self usually has 2 or 3 big guys, just like Carolina or Fla. State, but not so much quality size for them this year.
 

cliftonparksufan

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Now yes under the pod system. It wasn't always that way. An even still, in 50 years it should have happened at some point if they were both as great as has been historically claimed. Now granted I still have some Big East bias, always will, and have hard feelings from that era, but it doesn't change the fact they have never met, and thus can be concluded they may have been good but not great.
Even though both teams have historically been very good, it seems like one or the other took turns being the better team. Sprinkle in some Virginia success and an occasional outlier like an NC State or GT, and it makes sense.

Going through Duke and UNC's resume, I wonder how many times they made the FF not coming out of opening rounds in the Carolinas or maybe Atlanta/Washington DC.

The NCAA's aren't easy. I think both K and Hubert Davis have done a good job this post-season with their teams. I never expected Duke to come out of the West. I thought they would be exposed and struggle. Same with UNC.

That said, I'll never get caught up in that hype. And I'll stick to a previous statement I made that both Davis and Scheyer will struggle at some point forward. Not necessarily a Matt Doherty type situation where he got canned after a couple years, but each will face adversity that their Blue Blood Fandom will not be happy with. It's not easy running a high level CBB program. There are way too many challenges and expectations that not everyone can be successful year after year.
 

Bayside44

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1. There is a lot of slipping going on during games. A lot more than usual.. Is there something different they are putting on floors for shine that could be causing this?

2. All this hype about how awesome it is that Duke and NC are finally meeting in the tournament after 50 years of avoiding each other simply shows one thing. Both teams have been vastly overrated throughout the years or if they had lived up to their hype they surely would have met a few times before.

UNC has 21 FFs, Duke 17.
 

MDCuse

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1. There is a lot of slipping going on during games. A lot more than usual.. Is there something different they are putting on floors for shine that could be causing this?

2. All this hype about how awesome it is that Duke and NC are finally meeting in the tournament after 50 years of avoiding each other simply shows one thing. Both teams have been vastly overrated throughout the years or if they had lived up to their hype they surely would have met a few times before.
Number 2 is absolutely false. Those are 2 of the most successful programs in the last 50 years. The fact that they haven't met has zero to do with the success of either program and everything to do with "luck of the draw" in the tourny. Hence, why tourny results are hardly a good barometer of the success or trajectory of a program.
 

FireballPhil

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Number 2 is absolutely false. Those are 2 of the most successful programs in the last 50 years. The fact that they haven't met has zero to do with the success of either program and everything to do with "luck of the draw" in the tourny. Hence, why tourny results are hardly a good barometer of the success or trajectory of a program.
successful yes , over rated in many years based on hype? Still yes.
 

FireballPhil

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Ya, second one is an absolute terrible take. UNC and Duke have 2 of the best resumes in the sport. Overrated? If that is overrated, please tell me what would satisfy you? Because both programs are in the top 4 for number of final four appearances and number of championships. And that is the measuring stick of the sport.

Your bench mark was 50 years. In the last 50 years, Duke and UNC are THE TOP 2 in Championsips and Final Four Appearances.

Here are the teams overall history (>50 years)

UNC- 21 final fours, 6 championships, 5 second places, career .735 winning percentage

Duke- 17 final fours, 5 championships, 6 second places, career .710 winning percentage

Syracuse- 6 final fours, 1 championship, 2 second place finish, career .687 winning percentage

Kansas- 16 final fours, 3 championships, 6 second place finish, career .727 winning percentage

Kentucky- 17 final fours, 8 championships, 4 runner ups, career .765 winning percentage

UCLA- 19 final fours, 11 championships, 2 second places, career .688 winning percentage

Indiana- 8 final fours, 5 championships. 1 second place, career .634 winning percentage.
There is a difference between being successful and being overrated in different years. Yes they have been successful many years, but the fact that they have never met shows that this success is not concurrent with each other. Do not get caught up in the belief that overall success equals never being overrated during other less successful years.
 

JustPherU

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There is a difference between being successful and being overrated in different years. Yes they have been successful many years, but the fact that they have never met shows that this success is not concurrent with each other. Do not get caught up in the belief that overall success equals never being overrated during other less successful years.
Not sure what is crazier, your take or Will Smith slapping Chris Rock.
 

MDCuse

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There is a difference between being successful and being overrated in different years. Yes they have been successful many years, but the fact that they have never met shows that this success is not concurrent with each other. Do not get caught up in the belief that overall success equals never being overrated during other less successful years.
That the 2 programs never met in the tournament has ZERO correlation to the success of these programs. NOTHING. Stop saying this. Butler has played Old Dominion twice in the tourney in the last 15 years. What does that tell us??
 

MSOrange

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For part of it only one team per conference made it, having to win the ACC tournament.
Yes too many other things to consider that I don’t think Fireball did with this observation.
 

Chip

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and yet in 50 years they never met. You make my point for me!

I've seen some weird hills to die on, but this one is up there.

Most years they're probably in opposite sides so they can only meet up in the championship game.

If they're overrated because of not meeting in that game more, then everyone is overrated.
 

blust2i3d4

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CBS Sports has an article about Blue Blood Final Four. Young coach Jim Boehelm has lead Syracuse to final four. That year 1975 is ranked No. 2 Blue Blood Final Four because John Wooden of UCLA participated. UCLA beat Louisville in semi then Kentucky on national championship game.
Did Jim make progress since 1975 or is it just beginner's luck?
 

Col. Bleep

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CBS Sports has an article about Blue Blood Final Four. Young coach Jim Boehelm has lead Syracuse to final four. That year 1975 is ranked No. 2 Blue Blood Final Four because John Wooden of UCLA participated. UCLA beat Louisville in semi then Kentucky on national championship game.
Did Jim make progress since 1975 or is it just beginner's luck?
A little confused here.
Boeheim was an assistant on the '74-'75 team.
Roy Danforth was the head coach.
 

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