What has led to this collapse?

[orangepassion]

Syracuse had been in most games to the end until this recent stretch of blowouts. We actually seemed to start to playing a little better not that long ago until the recent collapse. What happened? Are guys exhausted? Quit? Have teams totally figured out the zone? What changed these last 4 games?

 

[oldpinepoint]

I blame Nancy cantor, why? because I blame her for everything else.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Young team hitting the February swoon and losing confidence while also realizing they aren’t going to make the tournament so not much to play for.

 

[SUFan44]

- Lack of senior leadership
- Too many young players in positions they shouldn't be in
- Weird roster management during this run, likely caused by internal issues (i.e. keeping players happy that were disgruntled and going to leave)
- Playing teams who have something to play for, minus GT

This last game is inexcusable, and in my opinion is a product of a team that has checked out and is no longer bought into what the head coach is selling them.

 

[SUFan44]

Young team hitting the February swoon and losing confidence while also realizing they aren’t going to make the tournament so not much to play for.

Explain GT, who is in the exact same boat as us, if not worse, boatracing us at home.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Explain GT, who is in the exact same boat as us, if not worse, boatracing us at home.

In a one game vacuum they gained confidence early after their made shots and were able to keep it going all game long.

 

[IraSez]

I'm beginning to get the feeling that it's time to clean house. Not a big fan of any of the assistants taking the reins if/when JB decides to call it quits. Hard to watch this team implode over the past few games when it seems we have the talent to be better.

 

[HOFCeluck]

1. Shots. We don’t hit enough of them.

2. Spacing

3. Jesse. Everything’s his fault.

 

[Madbiker]

This is what happens when you don't recruit enough high talent players. Yes, the 2-3 zone is outdated for today's game where there are multiple good 3 point shooters on the floor all the time and the zone will give up high quality open looks if the opponent moves the ball well. But basically, a coach and any scheme, is only as good as the talent level of the players he has to play it. Recruiting has been a problem for years and these last 2 years it is really biting. Cuse just doesn't get the caliber of player it used to. Mintz is really the only high level recruit they have landed in years. The talent disparity with the top half teams in the ACC is obvious when our other freshmen are on the floor against them. Some of these guys may develop into solid role players after 2-3 years of development but they are going to be exposed if asked to be main cogs. The biggest joke this year was asking a 175 lb. Chris Bell to play forward in the ACC against guys who outweigh him by 35-45 lbs every night and expect him to rebound effectively. Come on.

 

[Fly Rodder]

“How did you go bankrupt?"

"Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.”

― Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

 

[Nicknack]

Syracuse had been in most games to the end until this recent stretch of blowouts. We actually seemed to start to playing a little better not that long ago until the recent collapse. What happened? Are guys exhausted? Quit? Have teams totally figured out the zone? What changed these last 4 games?

Good questions and no one knows (unless they have inside knowledge). It is strange. Going into the Duke game, we showed flashes of being decent. Something changed. On the surface, it seemed like Duke took our soul and we haven't been the same since but maybe I'm giving them too much credit.

The thing that concerns me most is that it's our D that has gotten much worse. When a team checks out, it's usually on the defensive side because that requires the most effort.

 

[Newhouser]

As losses mount up the player realizes one of four things (deep down when they look in the mirror)

1) "I really am not that good" and loses confidence
2) "I'm better than the minutes I am getting screw the coach and team concept, I'm out of here anyway"
3) "We stink, I have to get some stuff on tape so I can play somewhere else"
4) "We stink but I get minutes and shots so it's good for me"

none of these are good when playing a team sport, and I think we have all 4 mindsets floating on our roster and a coach who can't stem the tide.

 

[two3zone]

Recruiting.

 

[BillSU]

My opinion - they've stopped playing for JB and the Feb swoon.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Bad recruiting. Bad systems.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Combination of things.
Maybe one too many, or one too few tirades in practice...and to the wrong player(s).
Although not unwarranted, benching Benny for example, and him taking a "personal mental day", were probably harbingers of what was coming.
By the time the pendulum swung to Bell for instance, and again not undeservedly, the grumbling got louder.
Add in the JB media outbursts, disgruntled fans whispering in a young team's ears, and a resignation/realization that this was just not gonna happen, has rendered them impotent and lacking confidence. Jmho

 

[CuseTG2003]

Combination of things.
Maybe one too many, or one too few tirades in practice...and to the wrong player(s).
Although not unwarranted, benching Benny for example, and him taking a "personal mental day", were probably harbingers of what was coming.
By the time the pendulum swung to Bell for instance, and again not undeservedly, the grumbling got louder.
Add in the JB media outbursts, disgruntled fans whispering in a young team's ears, and a resignation/realization that this was just not gonna happen, has rendered them impotent and lacking confidence. Jmho

Impotence = ultimate confidence crusher. Tough to overcome w/out performance enhancers.

 

[Brooky03]

Syracuse had been in most games to the end until this recent stretch of blowouts. We actually seemed to start to playing a little better not that long ago until the recent collapse. What happened? Are guys exhausted? Quit? Have teams totally figured out the zone? What changed these last 4 games?

I think some guys started considering their future and have checked out.

 

[BillSU]

Young team hitting the February swoon and losing confidence while also realizing they aren’t going to make the tournament so not much to play for.

Agreed. Please bear with me here. I admit I do not have all the answers but very strong opinion(s).

In my time watching us play, starting with the freshman in Manley and Dave Bing, it took years, a decade or more before the February swoon became a real, recognized thing. But, it seemed to take hold of us and not let go for several games and then we were OK again, went on our winning ways and then the swoon would be back for another two games. The lack of hitting shots was also part of it but looking at our record below, there would always be a way of defeating it and moving forward and I do not think the swoon is part of this years problem.

If this team has given up because they know they won't be playing in a post season event THAT, IMHO, is a SHAME. You are not only letting your team, coaches and fans down but everyone can see how you're playing and a miracle comeback night it wasn't. You do not give up even though you may not be back or haven't played in many games. If some of the freshman quit lining up their shots and just let it go to land somewhere near the backboard, that's bullshit. You are not helping the team or yourself now and in the future wherever you try to go or stay.

It was almost like JB, in his presser, had tried every lineup and a exhorted the players he had who were in each game scoring and playing their best for him suddenly were taken hold of by some weird entity last night. It's called not playing MAN. Judah hasn't quit, he's too smart knowing he has to play well with an NBA future ahead of him. Jesse, Joe, we can count on and now Benny has suddenly come on. Too late but?

Man to man has to be part of Jim's future if he stays and I think he will. After beating them badly in Atlanta by 17 they returned the favor, 18 3's from GT! You do not play a zone exclusively now, the game has completely changed and 3's are a reigning part of every game in college and the NBA. You have to play man.

It seems like teams coming in to play in the JMA are having their best games. I disagreed about the zone being the major argument until some years ago. Look at our record below, that's all zone. But that's in the past, basketball has moved on. I said last year we weren't going to be a good team this year because of its members and experience and it has come to pass. Everyone from the AD to the least experienced member of the team has a part in this. We needed 2 more Judah Mintz's only
6' 8"- 6' 9" forwards who score and rebound.

Last night was a very bad game and they will continue to be that way until many things change, the coach and better players are at the forefront, but it will take two to three years or more to get the train back on the rails, fully functioning as a great team again. A great program, as we always were, and will be again - only I don't know when. There's a plan, and it needs to be addressed NOW.

1977-1978	22​	6​	.786​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round			--​	N/A​
1978-1979	26​	4​	.867​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen			8th​	4​
1979-1980	26​	4​	.867​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen; Big East Season Champions	5-1​		6th​	1​
1980-1981	22​	12​	.647​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Tournament Finals; Big East Tournament Champions	6-8​		--​	​
1981-1982	16​	13​	.552​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Tournament Sweet 16	7-7​		--​	​
1982-1983	21​	10​	.719​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	9-7​		--​	6​
1983-1984	23​	9​	.719​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	12-4​		18th​	3​
1984-1985	22​	9​	.710​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	9-7​		15th​	7​
1985-1986	26​	6​	.813​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round; Big East Season Champions	14-2​		9th​	2​
1986-1987	31​	7​	.816​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA National Champion Runner Up; Final Four, BE Season Champions	12-4​		10th​	2​
1987-1988	26​	9​	.743​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round; Big East Tournament Champions	11-5​		9th​	3​
1988-1989	30​	8​	.789​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Elite Eight	10-6​		7th​	2​
1989-1990	26​	7​	.818​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen, Big East Season Champions	12-4​		6th​	2​
1990-1991	26​	6​	.813​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round, Big East Season Champions	12-4​		7th​	2​
1991-1992	22​	10​	.688​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round; Big East Tournament Champions	10-8​		21st​	6​
1992-1993	20​	9​	.690​	Jim Boeheim	Banned from Post Season Activity	10-8​		--​	​
1993-1994	23​	7​	.767​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	13-5​		15th​	4​
1994-1995	20​	10​	.667​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	12-6​		25th​	7​
1995-1996	29​	9​	.763​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA National Champion Runner Up; Final Four	12-6​		15th​	4​
1996-1997	19​	13​	.594​	Jim Boeheim	NIT 1st Round	9-9​		--​	​
1997-1998	26​	9​	.743​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	12-6​		21st​	5​
1998-1999	21​	12​	.636​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round	10-8​		--​	8​
1999-2000	26​	6​	.813​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen, Big East Season Champions	13-3​		16th​	4​
2000-2001	25​	9​	.735​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	10-6​		17th​	5​
2001-2002	23​	13​	.639​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Final Four	9-7​		--​	​
2002-2003	30​	5​	.857​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA National Champion; Final Four, BE Season Champions	13-3​		11th​	3​
2003-2004	23​	8​	.742​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	11-5​		20th​	5​
2004-2005	27​	7​	.794​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round; Big East Tournament Champions	11-5​		11th​	4​
2005-2006	23​	12​	.657​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round; Big East Tournament Champions	7-9​		21st​	5​
2006-2007	24​	11​	.686​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Quarter Finals	10-6​		--​	​
2007-2008	21​	14​	.600​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Quarter Finals	9-9​		--​	​
2008-2009	28​	10​	.737​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	11-7​		13th​	3​
2009-2010	30​	5​	.857​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen; Big East Season Champions	15-3​		3rd​	1​
2010-2011	27​	8​	.771​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	12-6​		12th​	3​
2011-2012	34​	3​	.919​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Elite Eight; Big East Season Champions	17-1​		2nd​	1​
2012-2013	30​	10​	.750​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four	11-7​		16th​	4​
2013-2014	28​	6​	.824​	Jim Boeheim

 

[M2MPrinciples]

So-so talent, mediocre player development, lack of adjustments (both in-game and season-to-season), poor scouting. And the zone.

Something I'm less certain about is how our facilities/amenities outside of the Dome and Melo Center stack up. Do the players still live in the same average South Campus apartments the rest of the students do? Boeheim isn't directly responsible for that, but if you're only winning 20 games a year and missing the tournament more often than not I doubt it gets the donors very excited about opening their wallets. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[newmexicuse]

Agreed. Please bear with me here. I admit I do not have all the answers but very strong opinion(s).

In my time watching us play, starting with the freshman in Manley and Dave Bing, it took years, a decade or more before the February swoon became a real, recognized thing. But, it seemed to take hold of us and not let go for several games and then we were OK again, went on our winning ways and then the swoon would be back for another two games. The lack of hitting shots was also part of it but looking at our record below, there would always be a way of defeating it and moving forward and I do not think the swoon is part of this years problem.

If this team has given up because they know they won't be playing in a post season event THAT, IMHO, is a SHAME. You are not only letting your team coaches and fans down but everyone can see how you're playing and a miracle comeback night it wasn't. You do not give up even though you may not be back or haven't played in many games. If some of the freshman quit lining up their shots and just let it go to land somewhere near the backboard, that's bullshit. You are not helping the team or yourself now and in the future wherever you try to go or stay.

It was almost like JB, in his presser, had tried every lineup and a exhorted the players he had who were in each game scoring and playing their best for him suddenly were taken hold of by some weird entity last night. It's calle noy playing MAN. Judah hasn't quit, he's too smart knowing he has to play well with an NBA future ahead of him. Jesse, Joe, we can count on and now Benny has suddenly come on. Too late but?

Man to man has to be part of Jim's future if he stays and I think he will. After beating them badly in Atlanta by 17 they returned the favor, 18 3's from GT! You do not play a zone exclusively now, the game has completely changed and 3's are a reigning part of every game in college and the NBA.

It seems like teams coming in to play in the JMA are having their best games. I disagreed about the zone being the major argument until some years ago. Look at our record below, that's all zone. But that's in the past, basketball has moved on. I said last year we weren't going to be a good team this year because of its members and experience and it has come to pass. Everyone from the AD to the least experienced member of the team has a part in this. We needed 2 more Judah Mintz's only
6' 8"- 6' 9" forwards who score and rebound.

Last night was a very bad game and they will continue to be that way until many things change, the coach and better players are at the forefront but it will take two to three years or more to get the train back on the rails fully functioning as a great team again. A great program as we always were and will be again - only I don't know when. There's a plan, and it needs to be addressed NOW.

1977-1978	22​	6​	.786​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round			--​	N/A​
1978-1979	26​	4​	.867​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen			8th​	4​
1979-1980	26​	4​	.867​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen; Big East Season Champions	5-1​		6th​	1​
1980-1981	22​	12​	.647​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Tournament Finals; Big East Tournament Champions	6-8​		--​	​
1981-1982	16​	13​	.552​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Tournament Sweet 16	7-7​		--​	​
1982-1983	21​	10​	.719​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	9-7​		--​	6​
1983-1984	23​	9​	.719​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	12-4​		18th​	3​
1984-1985	22​	9​	.710​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	9-7​		15th​	7​
1985-1986	26​	6​	.813​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round; Big East Season Champions	14-2​		9th​	2​
1986-1987	31​	7​	.816​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA National Champion Runner Up; Final Four, BE Season Champions	12-4​		10th​	2​
1987-1988	26​	9​	.743​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round; Big East Tournament Champions	11-5​		9th​	3​
1988-1989	30​	8​	.789​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Elite Eight	10-6​		7th​	2​
1989-1990	26​	7​	.818​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen, Big East Season Champions	12-4​		6th​	2​
1990-1991	26​	6​	.813​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round, Big East Season Champions	12-4​		7th​	2​
1991-1992	22​	10​	.688​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round; Big East Tournament Champions	10-8​		21st​	6​
1992-1993	20​	9​	.690​	Jim Boeheim	Banned from Post Season Activity	10-8​		--​	​
1993-1994	23​	7​	.767​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	13-5​		15th​	4​
1994-1995	20​	10​	.667​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	12-6​		25th​	7​
1995-1996	29​	9​	.763​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA National Champion Runner Up; Final Four	12-6​		15th​	4​
1996-1997	19​	13​	.594​	Jim Boeheim	NIT 1st Round	9-9​		--​	​
1997-1998	26​	9​	.743​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	12-6​		21st​	5​
1998-1999	21​	12​	.636​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round	10-8​		--​	8​
1999-2000	26​	6​	.813​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen, Big East Season Champions	13-3​		16th​	4​
2000-2001	25​	9​	.735​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	10-6​		17th​	5​
2001-2002	23​	13​	.639​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Final Four	9-7​		--​	​
2002-2003	30​	5​	.857​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA National Champion; Final Four, BE Season Champions	13-3​		11th​	3​
2003-2004	23​	8​	.742​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	11-5​		20th​	5​
2004-2005	27​	7​	.794​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round; Big East Tournament Champions	11-5​		11th​	4​
2005-2006	23​	12​	.657​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 1st Round; Big East Tournament Champions	7-9​		21st​	5​
2006-2007	24​	11​	.686​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Quarter Finals	10-6​		--​	​
2007-2008	21​	14​	.600​	Jim Boeheim	NIT Quarter Finals	9-9​		--​	​
2008-2009	28​	10​	.737​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen	11-7​		13th​	3​
2009-2010	30​	5​	.857​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Sweet Sixteen; Big East Season Champions	15-3​		3rd​	1​
2010-2011	27​	8​	.771​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA 2nd Round	12-6​		12th​	3​
2011-2012	34​	3​	.919​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Elite Eight; Big East Season Champions	17-1​		2nd​	1​
2012-2013	30​	10​	.750​	Jim Boeheim	NCAA Final Four	11-7​		16th​	4​
2013-2014	28​	6​	.824​	Jim Boeheim

I am generally a fan of your posts and your perspectives, but to say that Jimmy will stay with M2M being a part of his future is just theatre of the absurd type stuff.

Every season starts with Jimmy saying he will play some M2M, and we never see it. Last night we finally saw some only under extreme catastrophic circumstances.

The M2M issue is huge, but it is only part of the problem. The game has passed Jimmy by in so many other ways.

You can start with recruiting - he obviously isnt relating to the modern player since nobody comes here unless they are bought and paid for with NIL, but then again that isnt all on Jimmy. Players want to get paid and that is only fair.

You can continue on to outdated iso O strategies.

You can look at roster management - how does he seem to make so many players unhappy.

You can look at general cantankerousness.

Bottom line, Jimmy needs to go - NOW !!!

 

[Nicknack]

My opinion - they've stopped playing for JB and the Feb swoon.

It certainly looks like that but this isn't helping any player who is trying to get some good tape on him to portal to another team.

 

[AlaskaSU]

As far as recruiting, we have been casting a wider net than in prior years. The best ACC prospects are not interested in a snowed in new-comer to the thus warm weather league with its established hierarchy. Our recruiting woes are compounded by poor TV exposure and complete lack of significant rival games. At least the ACC money is plentiful and football has a home. Non-revenue sports are blossoming. This was all predictable as soon as the ACC deal was inked.

As for the zone, it is an impediment. When we rode high in the BE the zone was not a factor. When we lost our perch, and entered a new landscape, the zone became an impediment. It is no longer viewed as a way to win games.

It will take a long time to rebuild. Once a reputation is lost, recruiting will be difficult.

 

[BillSU]

I am generally a fan of your posts and your perspectives, but to say that Jimmy will stay with M2M being a part of his future is just theatre of the absurd type stuff.

Every season starts with Jimmy saying he will play some M2M, and we never see it. Last night we finally saw some only under extreme catastrophic circumstances.

The M2M issue is huge, but it is only part of the problem. The game has passed Jimmy by in so many other ways.

You can start with recruiting - he obviously isnt relating to the modern player since nobody comes here unless they are bought and paid for with NIL, but then again that isnt all on Jimmy. Players want to get paid and that is only fair.

You can continue on to outdated iso O strategies.

You can look at roster management - how does he seem to make so many players unhappy.

You can look at general cantankerousness.

Bottom line, Jimmy needs to go - NOW !!!

That's in general what I said. I don't think he will stay with man to man but play zone with it.

The year to year was there to show that even with the swoon with much better players it didn't make a difference whether the swoon showed its face or not.

I believe the last word in my post is NOW addressing all of the issues facing the BB program.

And, thank you for mentioning that you are a fan of my posts and perspectives.

 

[81South]

JFC…tge coach is almost 80….he’s old and his schemes are too. Put it out of its misery. Burn it down. It’s a chit show.