2012-2013 squad comparison with 2009-2010 (long)

[44doubledees]

Got thinking about this years team because I was bored and the more I thought about it the more I think it comapres more to the 2009 team, and I like the comparisons with the 2009-2010 team when you look at the positions, it is built very similarly.

C – Arinze vs Coleman
Both very similar players, can throw it down low to both and they will command a double team, both create a lot of space with girth, decent defensively although neither was or will be a great shot blocker. Coleman has the potential for a mid range game and he can’t be as bad on the line as Arinze. Slight edge to Arinze as he was a senior, although a 10 pt, and 5 rebound year from Coleman would not be a stretch.
PF – Rick vs Rak
Again similar players, Rick a jr and Rak a soph, both good rebounders, Rick was still carrying a lot of weight before he transformed himself his senior year, Rak better athletically and moving which should mean better perimeter defense on the wings than Rick. Both will slide inside to eat up minutes when the big guys need a rest or get injured (sigh). I call this one even if Rak can keep the fire he showed in the tourney.
SF - Wes vs CJ
Both athletic although Wes had the edge here, both let the game come to them neither forced the issue or was not able to, both struggle creating their own shot although CJ seems to be improving in this area, neither could dribble with the off hand. Both good defensively and on the boards although I think CJ is a better rebounder although Wes had a monster year on the boards as well. Big difference is obviously the 3pt shooting. Hopefully Cj can close this gap a little. Edge to Wes but only slightly.
SG – Andy vs MCW
I am putting MCW at shooting guard as I think Brandon will so the majority of the ball handling but I think MCW will be more effective running the offense in the half court. Andy had a great year, he shot it well from deep, .407, and was very good passing and facilitating in the half court although sometimes a bit reckless with the ball. These two are not similar so it is hard to compare but MCW will bring better rebounding more assists and I think could be decent from deep and go for .340 from deep in year one. MCW is by far the better penetrator and that wins him some points. Edge to Andy but it is closer than you may think.
PG – Triche vs Triche
This is easy as Triche I think will take a big step forward leading us in scoring. When Triche goes to all these summer tourneys we hear his scoring prowess because he has to be the man, he will be allowed to miss a couple early ones and not get yanked this year and that will be all the difference in the world to his confidence wise. Big advantage to 2012 Triche.


Bench
Joseph/Scoop/Mookie vs Southerland/Keita/Cooney/Grant
Joseph was a major factor that year and Scoop played decent as well albeit very up and down, Joseph could not shoot a lick from the outside but still scored well in transition, not much else, Mookie played very sparingly that year. Obviously our depth was not great. This year we have Southerland as a senior, I think he could easily cancel out Joseph in his Sophmore year, better rebounder, better outside shooter, better zone defense not penetration on the dribble. Cooney is a wildcard but I think he fits this team perfectly, poor mans andy Rauntins with the ability to get in the lane better, think he can easily be more effective than Scoop was and more important to this team. Keita is there for insurance and hustle and fouls, I liked what he brought in the tourney and is not a throw away on this team, he will continue to block shots, foul people and hustle and set screens. If we had him at this stage in 2009 we beat Butler in the Sweet Sixteen by keeping Rick on the outside more. I expect Grant to play as much as Mookie did maybe more but he is way better than Mookie just going to be more difficult to get on the floor, but if the need arises I think he could respond. Major edge on the bench to 2012 squad.
I found it interesting when comparing the two squads player by player, we all know how well the 2009 team was before Arinze went down, and I think this squad could come close to that type of year, I see a 2 seed. The one thing I failed to mention was that 2009 team had great leadership with Andy and Arinze and Wes, we need to see how well this team gels as it could be the younger guys who are leading.
Thoughts?

 

[SWFLCUSE]

I think the potential is undeniably there with this squad, the only thing that has me worried is that we don't have a guy like Andy who has ice in his vains and could knock down a shot at anytime, although Cooney has that potential he will be a RS Freshman compared to Andy who was a RS Senior at that time.

 

[44doubledees]

The intangibles that Andy brought are very hard to quanitfy that is for sure.

 

[EastCoast2]

I love me some CJ, but Wes was 1st team AA for a reason. He was that good.

 

[cuseincincy]

Got thinking about this years team because I was bored and the more I thought about it the more I think it comapres more to the 2009 team, and I like the comparisons with the 2009-2010 team when you look at the positions, it is built very similarly.

C – Arinze vs Coleman
Both very similar players, can throw it down low to both and they will command a double team, both create a lot of space with girth, decent defensively although neither was or will be a great shot blocker. Coleman has the potential for a mid range game and he can’t be as bad on the line as Arinze. Slight edge to Arinze as he was a senior, although a 10 pt, and 5 rebound year from Coleman would not be a stretch.
PF – Rick vs Rak
Again similar players, Rick a jr and Rak a soph, both good rebounders, Rick was still carrying a lot of weight before he transformed himself his senior year, Rak better athletically and moving which should mean better perimeter defense on the wings than Rick. Both will slide inside to eat up minutes when the big guys need a rest or get injured (sigh). I call this one even if Rak can keep the fire he showed in the tourney.
SF - Wes vs CJ
Both athletic although Wes had the edge here, both let the game come to them neither forced the issue or was not able to, both struggle creating their own shot although CJ seems to be improving in this area, neither could dribble with the off hand. Both good defensively and on the boards although I think CJ is a better rebounder although Wes had a monster year on the boards as well. Big difference is obviously the 3pt shooting. Hopefully Cj can close this gap a little. Edge to Wes but only slightly.
SG – Andy vs MCW
I am putting MCW at shooting guard as I think Brandon will so the majority of the ball handling but I think MCW will be more effective running the offense in the half court. Andy had a great year, he shot it well from deep, .407, and was very good passing and facilitating in the half court although sometimes a bit reckless with the ball. These two are not similar so it is hard to compare but MCW will bring better rebounding more assists and I think could be decent from deep and go for .340 from deep in year one. MCW is by far the better penetrator and that wins him some points. Edge to Andy but it is closer than you may think.
PG – Triche vs Triche
This is easy as Triche I think will take a big step forward leading us in scoring. When Triche goes to all these summer tourneys we hear his scoring prowess because he has to be the man, he will be allowed to miss a couple early ones and not get yanked this year and that will be all the difference in the world to his confidence wise. Big advantage to 2012 Triche.


Bench
Joseph/Scoop/Mookie vs Southerland/Keita/Cooney/Grant
Joseph was a major factor that year and Scoop played decent as well albeit very up and down, Joseph could not shoot a lick from the outside but still scored well in transition, not much else, Mookie played very sparingly that year. Obviously our depth was not great. This year we have Southerland as a senior, I think he could easily cancel out Joseph in his Sophmore year, better rebounder, better outside shooter, better zone defense not penetration on the dribble. Cooney is a wildcard but I think he fits this team perfectly, poor mans andy Rauntins with the ability to get in the lane better, think he can easily be more effective than Scoop was and more important to this team. Keita is there for insurance and hustle and fouls, I liked what he brought in the tourney and is not a throw away on this team, he will continue to block shots, foul people and hustle and set screens. If we had him at this stage in 2009 we beat Butler in the Sweet Sixteen by keeping Rick on the outside more. I expect Grant to play as much as Mookie did maybe more but he is way better than Mookie just going to be more difficult to get on the floor, but if the need arises I think he could respond. Major edge on the bench to 2012 squad.
I found it interesting when comparing the two squads player by player, we all know how well the 2009 team was before Arinze went down, and I think this squad could come close to that type of year, I see a 2 seed. The one thing I failed to mention was that 2009 team had great leadership with Andy and Arinze and Wes, we need to see how well this team gels as it could be the younger guys who are leading.
Thoughts?

C - Agreed.
PF - Agreed but Rak needs to step up to get there.
SF - Are you suggesting CJ is close to being a player of the year candidate and 1st Team All American? CJ will good, very good but Wes had a great season that year. Wes was usually the best player on the floor in any given game. CJ is not there yet and I don't expect that from him next year.
SG - You lost me on the Triche will be the primary ball handler. Oh Lord Regardless and for consistency sake lets compare Andy to MCW. Completely different games offensively. Could be similar defensively, Andy did a great job in the zone creating turnovers and I think MCW could do the same. MCW will be a creator on offense with a decent shot. Andy was a drop dead shooter who was an OK creator for others. I'll give this an optimistic draw.
PG - Triche is the same player he was 3 years ago. Have not seen much growth in his game and don't really expect any. And I'm not sure how many shots he gets to miss before JB brings Cooney in for him so Triche better keep looking over his shoulder. This is not summer ball. I think his prowess during summer ball stems more from the fact that the games don't really matter so he is more relaxed. He's played tight for 3 years for SU and that likely won't change. Even.
Bench - Scoop and Joseph were essentially starters that season and were one of the best benches SU ever had despite being only 2 of them. Southerland could come close to that category. To call Cooney a poor man's Andy Rautins would not be accurate. I expect RS Feshman Cooney to be almost as good as Senior Rautins was. He won't get near as much PT or have as much expected of him but he may be better in all phases of the game than Rautins was. I only hope he works as hard as Andy did because he made himself into the player he was when he graduated.

 

[EastCoast2]

Andy was just so savvy at the top of the zone, jumping into passing lanes and getting steals.

Leading the break and always passing at the right time really is an underrated skill

 

[EastCoast2]

Cooney is more athletic right now than Andy or Devendorf ever were

 

[arbitragegls]

cuseincincy...you are so wrong about Triche...obviously we will see who of us is closer to the truth...expecting 14pts and 4 assts a game from Triche...with upside being 16ppts and 6.

 

[CU44SE]

Got thinking about this years team because I was bored and the more I thought about it the more I think it comapres more to the 2009 team, and I like the comparisons with the 2009-2010 team when you look at the positions, it is built very similarly.

C – Arinze vs Coleman
Both very similar players, can throw it down low to both and they will command a double team, both create a lot of space with girth, decent defensively although neither was or will be a great shot blocker. Coleman has the potential for a mid range game and he can’t be as bad on the line as Arinze. Slight edge to Arinze as he was a senior, although a 10 pt, and 5 rebound year from Coleman would not be a stretch.
PF – Rick vs Rak
Again similar players, Rick a jr and Rak a soph, both good rebounders, Rick was still carrying a lot of weight before he transformed himself his senior year, Rak better athletically and moving which should mean better perimeter defense on the wings than Rick. Both will slide inside to eat up minutes when the big guys need a rest or get injured (sigh). I call this one even if Rak can keep the fire he showed in the tourney.
SF - Wes vs CJ
Both athletic although Wes had the edge here, both let the game come to them neither forced the issue or was not able to, both struggle creating their own shot although CJ seems to be improving in this area, neither could dribble with the off hand. Both good defensively and on the boards although I think CJ is a better rebounder although Wes had a monster year on the boards as well. Big difference is obviously the 3pt shooting. Hopefully Cj can close this gap a little. Edge to Wes but only slightly.
SG – Andy vs MCW
I am putting MCW at shooting guard as I think Brandon will so the majority of the ball handling but I think MCW will be more effective running the offense in the half court. Andy had a great year, he shot it well from deep, .407, and was very good passing and facilitating in the half court although sometimes a bit reckless with the ball. These two are not similar so it is hard to compare but MCW will bring better rebounding more assists and I think could be decent from deep and go for .340 from deep in year one. MCW is by far the better penetrator and that wins him some points. Edge to Andy but it is closer than you may think.
PG – Triche vs Triche
This is easy as Triche I think will take a big step forward leading us in scoring. When Triche goes to all these summer tourneys we hear his scoring prowess because he has to be the man, he will be allowed to miss a couple early ones and not get yanked this year and that will be all the difference in the world to his confidence wise. Big advantage to 2012 Triche.


Bench
Joseph/Scoop/Mookie vs Southerland/Keita/Cooney/Grant
Joseph was a major factor that year and Scoop played decent as well albeit very up and down, Joseph could not shoot a lick from the outside but still scored well in transition, not much else, Mookie played very sparingly that year. Obviously our depth was not great. This year we have Southerland as a senior, I think he could easily cancel out Joseph in his Sophmore year, better rebounder, better outside shooter, better zone defense not penetration on the dribble. Cooney is a wildcard but I think he fits this team perfectly, poor mans andy Rauntins with the ability to get in the lane better, think he can easily be more effective than Scoop was and more important to this team. Keita is there for insurance and hustle and fouls, I liked what he brought in the tourney and is not a throw away on this team, he will continue to block shots, foul people and hustle and set screens. If we had him at this stage in 2009 we beat Butler in the Sweet Sixteen by keeping Rick on the outside more. I expect Grant to play as much as Mookie did maybe more but he is way better than Mookie just going to be more difficult to get on the floor, but if the need arises I think he could respond. Major edge on the bench to 2012 squad.
I found it interesting when comparing the two squads player by player, we all know how well the 2009 team was before Arinze went down, and I think this squad could come close to that type of year, I see a 2 seed. The one thing I failed to mention was that 2009 team had great leadership with Andy and Arinze and Wes, we need to see how well this team gels as it could be the younger guys who are leading.
Thoughts?

C- I agree with your analysis

PF- I disagree, I believe your remembering Rick from his senior year. He was good his junior year but I believe without a doubt that Christmas will be a better player next year. Rack is longer, more athletic, and showed some potential for offensive moves with a year to develop.

SF- I like CJ a lot, but to even say there is a slight edge to Wes is wrong. Wes Johnson was an All- American, our leading scorer, and leading rebounder. Wes did not take over games, but he was always getting big points and could shoot from 3 (42%). I believe CJ is a much better driver than Wes but shot blocking, rebounding, and shooting all go to Wes. Huge advantage towards Wes.

SG- No way Triche is the point guard this year, maybe when MCW is out but MCW will be the floor leader so I will compare him to Andy. I believe what last years team was missing the most was a guy like Andy. He could stretch the floor with the 3, knew where to be on defense and was always on the floor for loose balls. Triche does none of that. Triche can shoot the 3 decent but does not have confidence and does not shoot nearly as much as Andy. He is sometimes a liability on defense and is not on the floor like Andy. The only thing I believe Triche is better at is driving to the bucket and can run the point when needed. Again I Give Andy a pretty big edge, but this can be offset if Triche gets to work during the offseason. Maybe he needs that confidence of being a senior leader to push him.

PG-I give MCW a huge advantage here. I was impressed with what he did in his limited minutes this year. I thought he should have been getting more playing time especially late in the year. Our offense ran much better when he was in the game. His passing and penetration led to easy buckets by our big men and made the defense collapse. He has also shown an outside shot along with being a leader on the floor.

Bench- This is difficult because our bench had two 6th men of the year. However I believe at the center position we are much deeper this year. Cooney will extend the defense with his shooting. The biggest question is how will Cooney perform though. Due to his redshirt we don't know how much he will bring to the table but I think he will be a huge addition. I believe james will be a much better player then Joseph, I might even go out on a limb and say that jay-smooth will be a better player next year than Joseph was this past year. If he can become a little more consistent from deep and develop some ability to drive. There is no question however that Jay-smooth is a much better defensive player. This year we will be much deeper and I do give the edge to this years bench. I believe Grant will be good, but I just dont see him getting much playing time, its not Boeheim's MO and there are a lot of guys ahead of him.

This was my first post, hope you guys don't rip me apart to badly!

 

[cuseincincy]

cuseincincy...you are so wrong about Triche...obviously we will see who of us is closer to the truth...expecting 14pts and 4 assts a game from Triche...with upside being 16ppts and 6.

2009-10 8.1 pts, 2.8 asst, 1.8 reb, 21.3 min
2010-11 11.1 pts, 2.9 asst, 2.7 reb, 28.8 min
2011-12 9.4 pts, 2.6 asst, 2.5 reb, 22.5 min

Looks like the same player to me.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

What am I missing that everyone else here sees in Triche being a potential star next year? With defenses paying more attention to him, we are now expecting the results to be better? He has always been a 3rd/4th fiddle and no one paid him much mind. Now he will have more attention on him with Dion and Kris gone.

A 40% shooter taking MORE shots next year scares the heck out of me. Do guys who already started every game in their career often make big shooting percentage jumps in their senior year? Brandon is who he is. We need MCW to be superman next year.

 

[br801]

C- I agree with your analysis

PF- I disagree, I believe your remembering Rick from his senior year. He was good his junior year but I believe without a doubt that Christmas will be a better player next year. Rack is longer, more athletic, and showed some potential for offensive moves with a year to develop.

SF- I like CJ a lot, but to even say there is a slight edge to Wes is wrong. Wes Johnson was an All- American, our leading scorer, and leading rebounder. Wes did not take over games, but he was always getting big points and could shoot from 3 (42%). I believe CJ is a much better driver than Wes but shot blocking, rebounding, and shooting all go to Wes. Huge advantage towards Wes.

SG- No way Triche is the point guard this year, maybe when MCW is out but MCW will be the floor leader so I will compare him to Andy. I believe what last years team was missing the most was a guy like Andy. He could stretch the floor with the 3, knew where to be on defense and was always on the floor for loose balls. Triche does none of that. Triche can shoot the 3 decent but does not have confidence and does not shoot nearly as much as Andy. He is sometimes a liability on defense and is not on the floor like Andy. The only thing I believe Triche is better at is driving to the bucket and can run the point when needed. Again I Give Andy a pretty big edge, but this can be offset if Triche gets to work during the offseason. Maybe he needs that confidence of being a senior leader to push him.

PG-I give MCW a huge advantage here. I was impressed with what he did in his limited minutes this year. I thought he should have been getting more playing time especially late in the year. Our offense ran much better when he was in the game. His passing and penetration led to easy buckets by our big men and made the defense collapse. He has also shown an outside shot along with being a leader on the floor.

Bench- This is difficult because our bench had two 6th men of the year. However I believe at the center position we are much deeper this year. Cooney will extend the defense with his shooting. The biggest question is how will Cooney perform though. Due to his redshirt we don't know how much he will bring to the table but I think he will be a huge addition. I believe james will be a much better player then Joseph, I might even go out on a limb and say that jay-smooth will be a better player next year than Joseph was this past year. If he can become a little more consistent from deep and develop some ability to drive. There is no question however that Jay-smooth is a much better defensive player. This year we will be much deeper and I do give the edge to this years bench. I believe Grant will be good, but I just dont see him getting much playing time, its not Boeheim's MO and there are a lot of guys ahead of him.

This was my first post, hope you guys don't rip me apart to badly!

Good stuff. Nothing to rip you apart for. I do think Triche is much better than you believe however (especially defensively) and think the ongoing speculation about his confidence is silly. Keep posting.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

What am I missing that everyone else here sees in Triche being a potential star next year? With defenses paying more attention to him, we are now expecting the results to be better? He has always been a 3rd/4th fiddle and no one paid him much mind. Now he will have more attention on him with Dion and Kris gone.

A 40% shooter taking MORE shots next year scares the heck out of me. Do guys who already started every game in their career often make big shooting percentage jumps in their senior year? Brandon is who he is. We need MCW to be superman next year.

I think a lot of people expect more out of BT because he will be getting more minutes and opportunities. It won't be the ball in Dions hands with under 10 on the shot clock, it will be in BTs hands now.
I think you will see a lot of BT coming around a screen and receiving a pass from MCW. With the defender on his hip, BT will barrell into the paint, where good things will happen. As the featured star senior that charge against OSU will now be a block.

As for MCW, he does not need to be superman. He will be the 4th or 5th option (BT, Dirty, CJ, and DC2). MCW's role will be the distributor. He seems well suited for it. During his junior year MCW will be asked to assume more of a scoring role (picking up the slack from BT graduating). It's the beauty of watching a team evolve from year to year.

 

[arbitragegls]

+1 Sgt. Cuse...and here are reasons why Brandon plays 28+ minutes...which is minimally 27% more time on floor:
1. Senior and we know what that means to JB---and probably 30+ minutes a game
2. expect an increase of minimally 25% production since playing time has increased
3. No more getting ball passed to him with 6 tics on clock--MCW far better passer and sharer than Scoop or Waiters (no negatives here at all just a fact)
4. MCW and Triche make the game faster than Waiters and Scoop...less pounding the ball and eating time off clock--half court offense will be better

overall, I expect Triche to be either the #1 or #2 scorer nearly ever game...drive more than he did this year...and look like the player against OSU...dont forget, he does not have a senior (Scoop) or Confident ego (Waiters) to DEFER TOO--Triche will be the man...

 

[realorange]

Top two scorers next year will be Triche and CJ.

 

[cytolliver]

i think our bench has more experience than 09-10's. it may even be more talented.

regardless i wanna see this 12-13 squad in action before we can do this

 

[Rossco123]

Two great threads on next year's team without the children jumping in to hijack some very knowledgable posts.

Doubledees makes some great observations but I think that most people are falling asleep on Cooney.
He is taller, bigger, stronger and quicker than Andy. He is a dead nuts shooter and will be able to take it to the hoop against high D1 players. His head is on straight (he has already taken one for the program) and he is well liked by team mates.
I'm really not sure how well Brandon and MCW will fit as a starting back court. There are huge expectations on MCW and I'm not sure he gets there without Brandon totally handing over the rains. He is a senior and it might be a tough pill to swallow.

 

[cap2nine]

I guess I’ll play devil’s advocate here, at the risk of sounding a bit negative. But, I think there are few things that need to be pointed out. I’ll say right off the bat that our 2012-13 squad’s potential is through the roof and I’m really looking forward to seeing them grow as individuals and as a team. Comparing them to 2009-10 is simply not fair though. Mostly because of some of the players being used in comparison, namely DC, Cooney, Rak and MCW. I just don’t think it’s right to put them side by side with proven seniors, veterans and team leaders.

C- AO was a rock in the middle of the zone. Nothing flashy but solid and strong. Coleman can surpass him without a doubt but will it happen his freshman year? Recent history tells us that Boeheim takes his time working young big-men in, i.e. Melo and Rak. I know I’m in the minority when I say this but I suspect that DC starts but gives way to Keita getting the majority of the minutes.

PF- Another one that only time will tell. Christmas has all the tools to be great and if he has half the heart that Ricky does, then he will be. I’m optimistic that Rak will make a good leap into his sophomore season but let’s not forget that he struggled mightily this past year and got extra minutes out of necessity and not necessarily due to performance.

SF- I love CJ. I think he will have a phenomenal, breakout year. But, as mentioned by others before me, Wes was an absolute stud, leading the team in points, rebounds and free throws and was 2nd in blocks, 3-pointers and steals. Wes and KJ or CJ and Dirty? I’d have to choose the former.

Guards- The upside for this squad is incredible but will they realize their potential? MCW will be the starting PG for sure but there are questions marks with him, Triche and Cooney. Is MCW ready for the keys to this team? Can Triche be a true leader and make the tough plays consistently? Is TC the shooter he’s hyped to be? Can any or all of them play lockdown D? I’m actually very confident in this guard corps and believe that they are better than their 2010 counterparts and will prove it on the court. Can’t take anything away from Rautins though. It may take MCW and Cooney combined to be the Rautins of 2013.

All in all this team looks to be a contender. There is just so much that they have to prove first whereas the 09-10 team already proved it. In many regards, I think it better to analyze and compare next year’s team with the 2010-11 boys simply because that team had multiple players stepping into new roles and starting positions. That team was labeled “overrated” early and often by Boeheim. I hope Orange v.2013 finds its chemistry and realizes its potential quickly and works its way to where it belongs… at the top!

 

[OrangeCrush22]

Coleman v Onuaku - Tie (Coleman is only a freshman and he's at, about, the same level as Arinze)
Christmas v Jackson - Christmas (Remember this isn't senior year Rick)
Southerland v Johnson - Johnson (Not even close) (Also, I think James will start over CJ)
Triche v Rautins - Rautins (Not even close, although I could be pleasantly surprised)
Carter-Williams v Triche - Carter-Williams (Not even close)

 

[Rocco]

No way MCW isn't starting at the 1. Why wouldn't Triche start at the 2?

 

[stuckinbig11]

not enough talk here about Southerland; he may be a star